League leaders in missed tackles.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-30-2020, 09:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know about PFF, but based just on production the most dramatic change over the second half of the season was the development of Pratt.  He barely played the first half of the season.  In the first 8 games he only played  101 snaps on defense (app 20%) and never more than 38% in any game.  Then in game #9 against Baltimore he played 50% of the defensive snaps.  After that game Preston Brown released.  Pratt saw a lot more action, but still did not play more than 68% of the snaps until the final 4 games where he played over 70% in 3 of them.  Here is how his season broke down


Game..snaps...tkl...solo..asst..blitz..TFL
1-4 ........ 25... 4..... 1..... 3..... 1..... 0
5-8 ........ 76...12.... 9..... 3..... 6..... 0
9-12.......148...22...14..... 8..... 7..... 0
13-16.....187...34...23.....11....14..... 4


He had 38 tackles and 0 TFL over the first 12 games, but 34 tackles and 4 TFL in the last 4.

Project that last quarter of the season over a full 16 games and you get 136 tackles and 16 tackle for loss.  That would be an awesome year from any of our LBs.  I know 4 games is a very small sample size, but those numbers were not just a fluke spike in production.  Instead you can track consistent improvement throughout the entire season.

As much asI like the rookie LBs coming in I believe Pratt is more likely to have a major impact on our defense than any of them.  In fact he is my predistion for "Break Out Player" this year.

Got to give you credit here (even if it may have been a deflection attempt) on breaking down Pratt's development.  Pretty cool that they even had the stats of how many times he blitzed.  I know that they seem to think pretty highly of ADG as a pass rusher that doesn't fit the mold of a traditional 3-4 OLB at all.  You could see Pratt's confidence soar and he was "all over the field", much like Burfict in his prime.  Was always near the ball.  Seeing it quantified like this is awesome.  Thank you.

I think we will see a lot of Pratt and Bynes early on, but a steady diet of Wilson and ADG being eased in over time.  Great thing is, unlike in the past, we don't need them to start day 1.  They can be developed exactly as Pratt was and could be major contributors by mid-season.  

With no pre-season games and limited padded practices, the acquisition of Bynes is looking even more logical.  Dude has seen a lot of football, especially in our division.  

When I look at big-picture and how the LB corps finished last year (mostly just Pratt and Vigil) but showed tremendous improvement, and even Vigil's numbers in pass defense improved, it gives me so much optimism towards the defense as they add Reader, a stud like Vonn Bell, and solid tacklers on the perimeter in Waynes and Alexander.  Heck, I remember hearing that WJIII played almost all of last season with a torn labrum.  
 
If this defense is even mid-pack, this team will be competitive.  Very competitive.  Add Burrow, Green, Jonah Williams, Tee Higgins, and healthy pieces around them on offense, I think they will be able to put up points on anyone.  New England's defense was the class of the league last year and I think they seem to be sitting this one out.  The division will be a bee-otch with Baltimore and the steelers, but I have a ton of faith in Burrow.  

[*bfine32*]

(07-30-2020, 09:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not moving the goalposts at all.  A LB that just plays on running downs should record a lot more tackles per snap than a LB who plays every down.  Just like a DE that only plays on passing downs should have a lot more sacks per snap.

Sure you did. You stated Vigil was much better at shedding blocks because he had so many more tackles. When shown that point was incorrect you changed it to "Well one is better because he's on the field more". That's a classic example of moving the goalpost. 

Now, it has moved to Bynes got more tackles per snap because of some other made up reason. The point most grasp is Vigil was a LB in a 4-3 defense that was bottom 4 in the NFL that was absolute garbage at LB. Vigil was competing for snaps in a LB rotation that included the likes of Jordan Evans, Hardy Nickerson Jr, and nobodys. Bynes was competing for snaps in a 3-4 Defense that was top 4 in the NFL against folks such as Matt Judon, Jaylon Ferguson, Tyus Bowser.  

[*bfine32*]

(07-30-2020, 10:53 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Fewer passing downs, yet managed an additional INT and only 1 fewer passes defended.  I am sure Vigil appreciates your participation trophy for simply being on the field on passing downs.  

Folks know the reason and the main one is the team they played on. Not because of some made up Vigil is better at shedding blocks. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-29-2020, 11:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is crazy because I was in favor of replacing Vigil.  I just think Bynes is worse, but it sounds like I am some huge Vigil fan.

Vigil was better than some people here claim, but I had no problem with letting him walk.

I am REALLY excited about our draft picks, and I am hoping we don't even have to see Bynes play much this year.

There it is, classic Fred line when defending marginal (at the very best) Bengals player.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 10:51 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:  Jumping on a pile is not nearly as impactful as a solo TFL. 

You don't get an assist for "jumping on a pile".

if you shed a blocker and get to the ball carrier you get credit even if another player does the same.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 11:28 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: There it is, classic Fred line when defending marginal (at the very best) Bengals player.

It is a classic because it is true.

The victim mentality is so prevalent around here that average players are "the worst ever".

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 11:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure you did. You stated Vigil was much better at shedding blocks because he had so many more tackles. When shown that point was incorrect you changed it to "Well one is better because he's on the field more". That's a classic example of moving the goalpost. 

Vigil was better at shedding tackles and getting top the ball carrier.  that was not proven to be false.  An overwhelming majority of LB tackles come on running plays.  Since Bynes only played on running downs he should have had A LOT more tackles per snap than Vigil, but the actual difference is so small the numbers are almost identical (.113 to .117)

(07-30-2020, 11:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote:  Vigil was competing for snaps in a LB rotation that included the likes of Jordan Evans, Hardy Nickerson Jr, and nobodys. Bynes was competing for snaps in a 3-4 Defense that was top 4 in the NFL against folks such as Matt Judon, Jaylon Ferguson, Tyus Bowser.  

Vigl and Bynes were competeing directly with each other on the free agent market and Vigil got paid more money.

I just can not understand the infatuation so many people around here have with Bynes.  He is a career back up.  The two times he has gotten a multi yaer contract he got cut before he could complete it.  He got cut by the Cards in 2019 when he was under contract for less than $3 million.  Last year he did not even make an NFL roster coming out of training camp.  This has nothing to do with defending Vigil.  This is just an honest evaluation of Bynes.

And people accuse me of defending "average at best" players?

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-30-2020, 11:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You don't get an assist for "jumping on a pile".

if you shed a blocker and get to the ball carrier you get credit even if another player does the same.

I was being a little sarcastic, but your definition likely gives too much credit when a player is afforded an "assist" and it doesn't change the fact that a solo tackle is that much more important.  

What is Tackle Assists?

This statistic is not officially recorded by the NFL, but some teams record it and make the information public.  A tackle assist is awarded if a player is tackled by at least two players.  The determination of which player is awarded a solo tackle, or if two players deserve an assist with no solo tackle is up to the statistician employed by the home team.

[Big Boss]

It feels like tackling has been a critical issue with this team for years, and that's even with changing defensive coordinators. I don't quite understand it. You watch other teams on defense where as soon as they touch the ball carrier it's over. Whenever one of our guys gets in the vicinity I hold my breath.

[*bfine32*]

(07-30-2020, 11:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Vigil was better at shedding tackles and getting top the ball carrier.  that was not proven to be false.  An overwhelming majority of LB tackles come on running plays.  Since Bynes only played on running downs he should have had A LOT more tackles per snap than Vigil, but the actual difference is so small the numbers are almost identical (.113 to .117)



Vigl and Bynes were competeing directly with each other on the free agent market and Vigil got paid more money.

I just can not understand the infatuation so many people around here have with Bynes.  He is a career back up.  The two times he has gotten a multi yaer contract he got cut before he could complete it.  He got cut by the Cards in 2019 when he was under contract for less than $3 million.  Last year he did not even make an NFL roster coming out of training camp.  This has nothing to do with defending Vigil.  This is just an honest evaluation of Bynes.

And people accuse me of defending "average at best" players?

It has too, I clearly showed where Bynes averaged more tackles per snap last year. You have not proven that Vigil was "much better" as you stated. All you've got know is Vigil played more snaps on a much worse team. I'm not defending either I'm just calling BS on a made up opinion by providing stats, just as you did to support your erroneous assertion. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-30-2020, 01:11 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I was being a little sarcastic, but your definition likely gives too much credit when a player is afforded an "assist" and it doesn't change the fact that a solo tackle is that much more important.  

What is Tackle Assists?

This statistic is not officially recorded by the NFL, but some teams record it and make the information public.  A tackle assist is awarded if a player is tackled by at least two players.  The determination of which player is awarded a solo tackle, or if two players deserve an assist with no solo tackle is up to the statistician employed by the home team.

It was a few years back and took me quite a bit of time, but i once showed how Bengals players are beneficiaries of assisted tackles due to homer book keepers. For instance Domata Peko averaged about 25 assists per season while here. Once he left he's on about 10 per. In his 11 years here he only had 3 seasons with more solo tackles than assists; yet he's had more solos than assists every year since he's left. 

Edit: DP had one more assist than solo last year

[impactplaya]

When Josh Bynes stepped in and started for the Ravens there was no drop off at that positon and for the defense
For that matter. Some Ravens fan even think he was a actual upgrade
Bynes was a important piece down the stretch

Now on to Vigil. He was not a good player on a,bad defense. He was a BAD lb on a bad defense. I did not see
In any area of his game where I could go "yeah he got better"
He was still making rookie mistakes last year. If Vigil was so much better than Bynes than how come
The Ravens didnt show intrerest in Vigil. ???

So what he got paid more than Bynes. Teams overpay for mediocre talent all the time.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 01:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It has too, I clearly showed where Bynes averaged more tackles per snap last year.

A LB who only plays on running downs has many more chances for tackles.  An overwhelming majority of a LBs tackles come on running plays.  That is why Bynes averaged more tackles per snap.  If he had played every down like Vigil then he would not be close in tackles per snap.  

It is like comparing "sacks per snap" between one DE who only plays on passing downs and another who plays on every down. It is apples to oranges.

[*bfine32*]

(07-30-2020, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A LB who only plays on running downs has many more chances for tackles.  An overwhelming majority of a LBs tackles come on running plays.  That is why Bynes averaged more tackles per snap.  If he had played every down like Vigil then he would not be close in tackles per snap.  

It is like comparing "sacks per snap" between one DE who only plays on passing downs and another who plays on every down. It is apples to oranges.

And none of that supports your assertion that Vigil is "much better" at shedding blockers. Do you know why there are DEs that only come in on passing downs? Wait for it....because they are better at shedding blockers, much like LBs that play on running downs. 

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 01:35 PM)impactplaya Wrote:  If Vigil was so much better than Bynes than how come
The Ravens didnt show intrerest in Vigil. ???

Why didn't they resign Bynes?

(07-30-2020, 01:35 PM)impactplaya Wrote: So what he got paid more than Bynes. Teams overpay for mediocre talent all the time.

It is not just one team.

The Lions cut him while was under contract for peanuts.

The Cards cut him while he was under contract for less that $3 million a year.

NONE of the 32 teams even invited him to training camp last year.

Ravens would not re-sign him this year even for less than $2 million a year.

And, finally, If you were a better judge of talent than NFL teams then you would not be here on this board.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 02:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And none of that supports your assertion that Vigil is "much better" at shedding blockers. Do you know why there are DEs that only come in on passing downs? Wait for it....because they are better at shedding blockers, much like LBs that play on running downs. 

And the DEs that play every down are better than the guys who only plat limited snaps.

[*bfine32*]

(07-30-2020, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And the DEs that play every down are better than the guys who only plat limited snaps.

If a DE plays ever down then how do those that rush the QB ever get on the field? There goes that goalpost again. Now it's changed from "much better" at shedding blocks to much better because he plays more snaps. 

I've not said one is any better than the other. I just opposed your assertion that Vigil is "much better" at shedding blocks than Josh Bynes. And you've taken it everywhere but there when it was proved to be a wash at best. 

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 02:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If a DE plays ever down then how do those that rush the QB ever get on the field?

WTF?

There are some DEs that play every down and there are some that don't.

(07-30-2020, 02:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  There goes that goalpost again. Now it's changed from "much better" at shedding blocks to much better because he plays more snaps. 

No goal posts have been moved.

The ability to shed blockers has nothing to do with the number of snaps played.  It is not either "one or the other".  It is possible for both to be true at the same time.

What is going on with this ambush over Bynes?  No one had even mentioned Bynes, then you and the Playa start attacking me about how I am admitting that I was wrong about Bynes when I had not even mentioned him.

I had no problem with us letting Vigil leave.  I am more excited about Pratt and our new draft picks than I was about Vigil.  But it seems that the people who are impressed with Bynes are actually more obsessed with hating Vigil.  It is impossible for me to mention Bynes without a people trashing Vigil.  

[impactplaya]

(07-30-2020, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF?

There are some DEs that play every down and there are some that don't.



No goal posts have been moved.

The ability to shed blockers has nothing to do with the number of snaps played.  It is not either "one or the other".  It is possible for both to be true at the same time.

What is going on with this ambush over Bynes?  No one had even mentioned Bynes, then you and the Playa start attacking me about how I am admitting that I was wrong about Bynes when I had not even mentioned him.

I had no problem with us letting Vigil leave.  I am more excited about Pratt and our new draft picks than I was about Vigil.  But it seems that the people who are impressed with Bynes are actually more obsessed with hating Vigil.  It is impossible for me to mention Bynes without a people trashing Vigil.  

I'm not attacking you Fred. I have no motive to be malicious or vigilant in regards to your opinion 

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 03:16 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I'm not attacking you Fred. I have no motive to be malicious or vigilant in regards to your opinion 

Sorry, It was Nico who made up the claim that started all this.