League leaders in missed tackles.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-29-2020, 10:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one even mentioned bynes.

Right, but if Vigil was among the worst tacklers in the entire league, and Bynes wasn’t, then you’ve been wrong when you keep saying the latter isn’t an upgrade.

[2MinutesHate]

I would guess maybe sometimes they just didn't give a rats ass. The games out of reach usually and guys just naturally don't try as hard.

[GreenCornBengal]

Bates knock coming out of college was his tackling. He was pretty good his rookie year. Last year not so much.

Williams used to be a heavy hitter, but I think as the rules have changed his technique had to change and what worked for him in the past isn’t accepted anymore. He was more of the high shot type of tackler which just leads to penalties. He adjusted and it didn’t help his game IMO.

Vigil just can’t handle NFL speed, again, IMO.

All 3 were forced into bad situations by being on the field constantly and not getting a rest due to the defenses terrible habit of not getting off the field. Your tackling is much worse when you are exhausted and those 3 were on the field a lot last year.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-29-2020, 10:22 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: I would guess maybe sometimes they just didn't give a rats ass. The games out of reach usually and guys just naturally don't try as hard.

Or they were just getting posterized like Vigil did by Lamar...

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 10:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Right, but if Vigil was among the worst tacklers in the entire league, and Bynes wasn’t, then you’ve been wrong when you keep saying the latter isn’t an upgrade.

Uh, no.

Vigil was so much better at shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier that he still averaged close to twice as many tackles per game as Bynes.

Vigil.....6.9 tkls per game
Bynes..3.8 tkls per game

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-29-2020, 10:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, no.

Vigil was so much better at shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier that he still averaged close to twice as many tackles per game as Bynes.

Vigil.....6.9 tkls per game
Bynes..3.8 tkls per game

And yet Bynes had twice as many TFL...in 4 less games.

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 10:47 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And yet Bynes had twice as many TFL...in 4 less games.

3 more TFL do not make up for 65 fewer tackles.

[*bfine32*]

(07-29-2020, 10:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, no.

Vigil was so much better at shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier that he still averaged close to twice as many tackles per game as Bynes.

Vigil.....6.9 tkls per game
Bynes..3.8 tkls per game

(07-29-2020, 10:47 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And yet Bynes had twice as many TFL...in 4 less games.

Not to mention Vigil had well over 2 times as many snaps as Bynes. I wonder why Fred went by games instead of snaps.  Maybe because

Vigil- One tackle every 8.8 

Bynes- One tackle every 8.5

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 10:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not to mention Vigil had well over 2 times as many snaps as Bynes. I wonder why Fred went by games instead of snaps.  Maybe because

Vigil- One tackle every 8.8 

Bynes- One tackle every 8.5

Oh, sorry.  I forgot that Bynes was not good enough to play every down like Vigil. Thanks for reminding me.


But despite Bynes getting to play on fresh legs (half as many snaps per game) and only playing on running downs he still only averaged LESS THAN 1 more tackle every 200 snaps.

[GreenCornBengal]

The Vigil vs Bynes debate is hilarious.

Bynes is meh but Vigil is bleh.

[*bfine32*]

(07-29-2020, 11:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Oh, sorry.  I forgot that Bynes was not good enough to play every down like Vigil. Thanks for reminding me.


But despite Bynes getting to play on fresh legs (half as many snaps per game) and only playing on running downs he still only averaged LESS THAN 1 more tackle every 200 snaps.

Could be that one played in a 3-4 and one played in a 4-3 but you now kinda have to move the goalpost from your "Vigil was much better at shedding blocks" stance don't you

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 11:24 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The Vigil vs Bynes debate is hilarious.

Bynes is meh but Vigil is bleh.

It is crazy because I was in favor of replacing Vigil.  I just think Bynes is worse, but it sounds like I am some huge Vigil fan.

Vigil was better than some people here claim, but I had no problem with letting him walk.

I am REALLY excited about our draft picks, and I am hoping we don't even have to see Bynes play much this year.

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-29-2020, 11:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is crazy because I was in favor of replacing Vigil.  I just think Bynes is worse, but it sounds like I am some huge Vigil fan.

Vigil was better than some people here claim, but I had no problem with letting him walk.

I am REALLY excited about our draft picks, and I am hoping we don't even have to see Bynes play much this year.

I agree, ideally Bynes is a role player and doesn’t have a huge amount of snaps this year. Perfectly fine if he is gone the next. He is a stop gap solution, and I’m glad we didn’t pay Vigil because he wasn’t worth the $$$.

REALLY need 1-2 of these rookie LBs to make an immediate impact. Hoping Wilson turns into a long term contributor here.

[impactplaya]

This is 1st time in Bynes career he is now.looked upon as a leader of a LB group
And he is embracing it. Bynes is taking his role seriously.
Leadership and example has been lacking from the LBing core for a couple years now.

Last year's Bengals LBers was a,clinc on how not to play LB. Missed reads.constantly
Fooled by play action. Missed tackles. Lack of forcing turnovers. Letting TEs and RB get YAC.

[J24]

The defense struggled in weeks 2-11 and then magically improved afterwards. I wonder if their is way too see how many of those missed tackles happened during those weeks compared to rest of the season? I know that Bates and Vigil PFF grade dramatically improved during the last seven weeks of the season compared to the first 9.

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 11:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Could be that one played in a 3-4 and one played in a 4-3 but you now kinda have to move the goalpost from your "Vigil was much better at shedding blocks" stance don't you

Not moving the goalposts at all.  A LB that just plays on running downs should record a lot more tackles per snap than a LB who plays every down.  Just like a DE that only plays on passing downs should have a lot more sacks per snap.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 01:30 AM)J24 Wrote: The defense struggled in weeks 2-11 and then magically improved afterwards. I wonder if their is way too see how many of those missed tackles happened during those weeks compared to rest of the season?  I know that Bates and Vigil PFF grade dramatically improved during the last seven weeks of the season compared to the first 9.

I don't know about PFF, but based just on production the most dramatic change over the second half of the season was the development of Pratt.  He barely played the first half of the season.  In the first 8 games he only played  101 snaps on defense (app 20%) and never more than 38% in any game.  Then in game #9 against Baltimore he played 50% of the defensive snaps.  After that game Preston Brown released.  Pratt saw a lot more action, but still did not play more than 68% of the snaps until the final 4 games where he played over 70% in 3 of them.  Here is how his season broke down


Game..snaps...tkl...solo..asst..blitz..TFL
1-4 ........ 25... 4..... 1..... 3..... 1..... 0
5-8 ........ 76...12.... 9..... 3..... 6..... 0
9-12.......148...22...14..... 8..... 7..... 0
13-16.....187...34...23.....11....14..... 4


He had 38 tackles and 0 TFL over the first 12 games, but 34 tackles and 4 TFL in the last 4.

Project that last quarter of the season over a full 16 games and you get 136 tackles and 16 tackle for loss.  That would be an awesome year from any of our LBs.  I know 4 games is a very small sample size, but those numbers were not just a fluke spike in production.  Instead you can track consistent improvement throughout the entire season.

As much asI like the rookie LBs coming in I believe Pratt is more likely to have a major impact on our defense than any of them.  In fact he is my predistion for "Break Out Player" this year.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 04:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: According to ProFootballOutsiders the top three players in the league in missed tackles were

Jesse Bates.........24
Nick Vigil............23
Shawn Williams...22

I have a saying.  "When a player stinks look at the player.  When ALL the players stink look at the coaching."  

Tackling is a basic skill that all of these guys learned in college.  I don't know how it could be blamed on the coaches unless these guys were missing tackles because they were out of position and not getting good clean tackle attempts.

Was this broken down as a % of tackling opportunities?  Although we know there were a good number of them, these three (averaged) had more than 25% greater tackles than the next closest Bengal.  All three played all 16 games.  

I am hardly standing up for them. but when your safeties are team leaders in tackles, it says something about your front seven as well.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 10:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 3 more TFL do not make up for 65 fewer tackles.

I'm not so sure when those 65 tackles are nearly 50% "assists" and not solo tackles.  Jumping on a pile is not nearly as impactful as a solo TFL.  That is similar to a sack, and we know the value put on those.  A TFL takes great instincts from a LB.  Vigil had very poor instincts.  

Bynes also had one more INT in fewer games.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 11:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Oh, sorry.  I forgot that Bynes was not good enough to play every down like Vigil. Thanks for reminding me.


But despite Bynes getting to play on fresh legs (half as many snaps per game) and only playing on running downs he still only averaged LESS THAN 1 more tackle every 200 snaps.

Fewer passing downs, yet managed an additional INT and only 1 fewer passes defended.  I am sure Vigil appreciates your participation trophy for simply being on the field on passing downs.