Carlos speaks out about Racism and Bengals

[Sled21]

(09-04-2020, 04:59 PM)Skans Wrote: Actually the proper disposal of the flag is by burning.

In a ceremony, not while on the ground being stepped on. 

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2020, 04:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So you think burning the flag is okay...

Gotcha.

Let's see, how can I respond to this?

Should I make up some silly strawman like "Oh, you hate the First Amendment... Gotcha "

Or should I repeat me point in hopes that you might actually get it this time?

I think I will take the high road.

As I said before burning the flag has everything to do with not liking what is going on in this country.  It is a form of protest.  It is absurd to claim that people just hate America for no reason and want to destroy it even though they live here.

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-04-2020, 05:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: As I said before burning the flag has everything to do with not liking what is going on in this country.  It is a form of protest.  It is absurd to claim that people just hate America for no reason and want to destroy it even though they live here.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you.

A lot of the people who are burning the flag are doing so for much more than what is currently going on, or what has recently happened.  In fact, flag burning is not something you see a lot of in organized, peaceful BLM protests.

To characterize this act as something done solely in protest of racial and socio-ecomomic issues I think is completely disingenious.

Some (almost all) who resort to this act are protesting the country itself, not singular issues.  They do indeed hate America. And not just America right now, and now just some of it's history. They hate it, or they believe they do, at it's very core.

These are people who expouse socialist ideology.  Many of whom most likely reference Guevara or point on the literacy rate in Cuba under Castro.  "Eat the rich" types if you will.

Radicalists, anarchists, left-wing nutjobs.  They truly hate this country.  It has nothing to do with a protest of an issue that can be solved or addressed.  It's a protest of everything that this country represents.

Now, I'm sure you'll come back with one of your trademark rebuttals, where you'll twist the words around or shift the conversation.  But I think you know deep down that the above is true.

At the very least, I think you can at least admit that the burning of the American flag is the least effective form of protest ever.  What does it accomplish?  What is their end game?  Are they enacting change by doing it?  Are they gaining supporters by this act.

There's a million others ways to protest, and there's a million more ways to effectively do it.  This act has nothing to do with actually accomplishing anything though. 

It's a bunch of indocrinated dimwits, that enjoy a better life than 90%+ of people who the world, larping like they in the midst of some historical revolution.  And they record themselves on their 500+ smart phones, while eating 3 square meals a day doing it.  But at least they can share on social meda just what "difference" they're making out there.

These people are absolute losers.  And that act, and the ideologies behind it, are extremely dangerous.  To describe as anything else is absurd.

/rantover

[Bilbo Saggins]

Burning a flag doesn't really harm anyone aside from potentially bruising their ego. 

Committing crimes in the name of one's country actually harms people. The history of coups, assassinations, proxy wars, sabotage etc. (often in the name of business interests) is long and disgusting. I'm not going to get into it further. Read Killing Hope if you desire to know. 

So what if some people get pissed off and burn a flag in public? It doesn't detrimentally affect you unless you allow it to. Throwing a hissy fit over flag burning rather than addressing ACTUAL crimes is a trademark of the mentally frail jmho. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-04-2020, 07:04 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Burning a flag doesn't really harm anyone aside from potentially bruising their ego. 
 
So what if some people get pissed off and burn a flag in public? It doesn't detrimentally affect you unless you allow it to.

Do you apply this logic process to things like purposedly misgendering people, using slurs, fat shaming, or wearing MAGA gear to a BLM rally?

I'm generously curious.  Because none of these things physically harm people, nor are they crimes.  They all share a common response: being offended, hurt, disrespected, etc.

If you're wondering why some allow the act of burning a flag to greatly upset them, do you wonder the same for across the board?

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2020, 07:26 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Do you apply this logic process to things like purposedly misgendering people, using slurs, fat shaming, or wearing MAGA gear to a BLM rally?

I'm generously curious.  Because none of these things physically harm people, nor are they crimes.  They all share a common response: being offended, hurt, disrespected, etc.

If you're wondering why some allow the act of burning a flag to greatly upset them, do you wonder the same for across the board?

Slurs, fat-shaming and the like are directed at specific individuals and can be insulting and hurtful

Burning a flag is just directed at a flag*.





*I apologize to anyone who identifies as a flag and might be offended by this comment

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-04-2020, 07:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Slurs, fat-shaming and the like are directed at specific individuals and can be insulting and hurtful

Burning a flag is just directed at a flag*.





*I apologize to anyone who identifies as a flag and might be offended by this comment

Can I burn a Pride flag or BLM flag, and reasonably expect no one will be hurt by it?

After all, it's just a flag.

Or maybe some BLM members will get offended, because the flag represents BLM?  Or maybe some LGTBQ people will get offended because it represents LGBTQ?

So if they're allowed to be offended if their representive flag is burned, why is not reasonable to expect some Americans get offended when the American flag is burned?

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2020, 06:14 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Radicalists, anarchists, left-wing nutjobs.  They truly hate this country.  It has nothing to do with a protest of an issue that can be solved or addressed.  It's a protest of everything that this country represents.

Now, I'm sure you'll come back with one of your trademark rebuttals, where you'll twist the words around or shift the conversation.  But I think you know deep down that the above is true.

If we are talking about people in other countries then I agree that they just hate America.

But I don't see how that applies to all the protestors here in America.  What exactly do you claim they hate about America?  What do you think they want to accomplish by protesting?

This whole "they just hate America" argument makes no sense.  People who hate the country would just leave.  No way in hell they want to destroy the country while they still live here.  That is an absurd argument peddled on FoxNews.

"Colin Kaepernick and BLM are LYING when they claims to care about racial injustice.  THEY JUST HATE AMERICA!!!


The conservatives said the exact same thing in the '60's and 70's when people were protesting against the Vietnam War.  They said it was not possible to disagree with the war unless you hated America.

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-04-2020, 07:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Burning a flag is just directed at a flag*.

It's directed at what said flag represents.  Otherwise, they'd just be burning all sorts of random flags.

They burn American flags because they hate America.

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2020, 07:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Can I burn a Pride flag or BLM flag, and reasonably expect no one will be hurt by it?

Again I am talking about US citizens burning the American flag.  That is different from someone from another country burning an American flag.

If you were a member of BLM or the LGBT community and you burned the flag in protest of something you felt they were doing wrong I don't think they would get that upset.  But an outsider burning the flag is different.  Then it basically means you hate the group of people it represents.

I have asked this question multiple times but so far no one has answered.  If a US citizen really just "hates America" then what is he trying to accomplish by protesting?  What exactly is his goal?  What does he gain by destroying THE COUNTRY WHERE HE LIVES?

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2020, 07:46 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: They burn American flags because they hate America.

What exactly do they hate?

Why do they make up lies about policies they want to change instead of just saying that they hate America?

If they hate America and burn the flag for that reason then why do they lie about it?  What is the point of that?

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-04-2020, 08:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why do they make up lies about policies they want to change instead of just saying that they hate America?

Why burn the American flag if you just want to change policies?

There's a million ways to protest, and there's a million ways to bring attention to a cause,  or to enact change.  Why specifically target the American flag in order to do this?

I think a good rule of thumb is, be it a BLM flag, a LGBT flag, or an American flag, if you choose to burn it then you're clearly sending the message you hate what that flag represents.

PS I have a fantasy draft coming up, but I'll try to respond to your other post later.  I'm not ducking answering you.  And just to be clear, when I entered this conversation, the topic was specfically the burning of the flag, which you described as protest.  So that's the protesters I'm referring to.  Those are the people who I think hate this county, not the 99% of them who do not burn the flag.

[Wes Mantooth]

I suggest watching this whole video (onky 3 minutes) and try to come to any other conclusion that these people hate America:





Their shirts say "Revolution Nothing Less". They chant: "Slavery, Genocide, and War...America was never great." and "Imagine a world without America".

These are the people are referring to, and this isn't an isolated incident.

I'm not assuming they hate America, they're literally telling everyone they hate America.

PS I'm not some youtube protest nut, and hadn't seen this video. I just typed in Antifa flag burning and this was the first video in the results.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-04-2020, 07:04 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Burning a flag doesn't really harm anyone aside from potentially bruising their ego. 

Committing crimes in the name of one's country actually harms people. The history of coups, assassinations, proxy wars, sabotage etc. (often in the name of business interests) is long and disgusting. I'm not going to get into it further. Read Killing Hope if you desire to know. 

So what if some people get pissed off and burn a flag in public? It doesn't detrimentally affect you unless you allow it to. Throwing a hissy fit over flag burning rather than addressing ACTUAL crimes is a trademark of the mentally frail jmho. 

I understand what u ate saying but could not say the same for quotes and signs etc for all lives matter or thin blue line or maga hats, why do people get so upset..

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(08-24-2020, 08:51 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Gentlemen, although this thread does belong in jungle noise, please take precaution to keep it clean and un-offensive to others. We are a community and respect, regardless of opinion, should be shown in this (and all) discussion. Opinions differ and too many times we let conviction and anger cloud our judgements to a viscous exchange of words. Let's not let this happen here.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(09-04-2020, 07:26 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Do you apply this logic process to things like purposedly misgendering people, using slurs, fat shaming, or wearing MAGA gear to a BLM rally?

I'm generously curious.  Because none of these things physically harm people, nor are they crimes.  They all share a common response: being offended, hurt, disrespected, etc.

If you're wondering why some allow the act of burning a flag to greatly upset them, do you wonder the same for across the board?

I'd have to take it on a case by case basis with any of those things, but this is a bit of a false equivalence argument to me.  I associate US flag burnings with anti-imperialism, anti-military aggression, and maybe anti-corruption types of sentiments.  If you go and call someone a racial slur or burn a pride flag, you are just punching down on people and going after easy targets.  That would be an action that would indicate opinions which were tribalist at best, outright fascist at worst.  That's not exactly the same thing as calling out the most powerful empire in existence today - an empire which claims that its moral superiority legitimizes all of its shortcomings.  Good, intelligent people don't think that way IMO.  

I can empathize with being annoyed at the act of flag burning, but to believe that it's more serious than crimes which cause more serious harm to people - I'm just not capable of thinking that way.  I'm not that in love with a set of imaginary lines and a set of ideals which are selectively enforced based upon your standing in society.  The US's idealized values system has a lot to like about it: the promise of individual freedom, individual responsibility, multiculturalism, fairness under law, opportunity for all, etc.  Unfortunately the US doesn't always live up to it.  Criminal politicians, criminal intelligence agents, criminal police, wasteful lifestyles, glorification of ignorance, science denial...you get my drift.  The types of people who overthrow democratically elected governments and replace them with brutal dictatorships for the benefit of oligarchs(or a fruit company) aren't punished in this country.  That's by design.

(09-04-2020, 09:44 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I understand what u ate saying but could not say the same for quotes and signs etc for all lives matter or thin blue line or maga hats, why do people get so upset..

People are allowed to wear those things imo.  People are also allowed to get annoyed with the "thin blue line" stuff.  I take that flag as meaning: "don't snitch on the cops."  Well what if there's a criminal cop?  Shouldn't police officers be held to a higher standard than your average Joe on the street?  All lives matter is a factual statement, but it was used by a politician to shout down a constituent who was saying that black lives mattered.  That one needs some context to understand - I believe that both Jerry Rice and Richard Sherman, two bright dudes, once said "all lives matter" without really getting how a lot of the people who say that are using it as a rebuttal of "black lives matter."  Maga hats represent a ludicrously corrupt and inept president JMHO.  People are free to wear it and people are allowed to be annoyed by it.

[HarleyDog]

This thread is no longer about the Bengals. Locked.