How Long Will the Rebuilding Take?

[GreenCornBengal]

(09-20-2020, 03:39 PM)McC Wrote: First of all, Lou was the DB coach in NY, so you can't really say HE had a terrible defense when he was a position coach.   Right off the bat, most of the crux of your argument is wrong.

I'm not saying he is doing a great job, but if his guys get suckered on naked bootlegs and bite on poorly executed double moves and don't tackle guys they have their hands on and the DE's don't set the edge on the run, how is it that some people are so convinced that the DC is so terrible?

The coordinator's job is to put his people in position to make plays.  It sure looked to me like that was happening Thursday night.  If those plays are made, we're having a whole different conversation.

Half his defense is new guys who had on off season program or preseason games to clean things up.

I can't believe how some people are losing their shit over two losses by a total of eight points to two teams who were both favored in those games.

The Giants secondary was the problem with that defense. That’s a direct reflection of Lou.

I saw the game completely differently. I saw corners playing bump man and being completely blown by, which is something a coach can account for by not calling that type of coverage. Falling for a bootleg is something that can be coached on, guys were unprepared for it. The players are a reflection of the coach IMO, but I think it’s safe to say both are subpar right now.

[jfkbengals]

(09-20-2020, 04:04 PM)impactplaya Wrote: It's funny how the Steelers excel in so many phases. How come the BROWN family cant look at the Rooney model of success

Coaching consistency and building through the draft.

That was the model throughout the Lewis era and the fans weren't happy with it, either.

[McC]

(09-20-2020, 04:12 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The Giants secondary was the problem with that defense. That’s a direct reflection of Lou.

I saw the game completely differently. I saw corners playing bump man and being completely blown by, which is something a coach can account for by not calling that type of coverage. Falling for a bootleg is something that can be coached on, guys were unprepared for it. The players are a reflection of the coach IMO, but I think it’s safe to say both are subpar right now.

Really?  NFL players are unprepared for a naked bootleg?  Hey,  if you keep flailing, you might just hit on a salient point.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(09-20-2020, 03:40 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'll say three years away.

And it isn't a pessimistic view, it is just an honest thought. Geno, A.J. and Dunlap are all aging and will all need to be replaced soon. (Hate it, but it is true) So that takes out three starters. After that, you have the waste of space Hart and the gaping wound at RG. Add in the terrible pick of Ross and having to replace him, plus the normal loss of FA's and you are seeing 6 for certain starters to be replaced and possibly a 7th in the next year or two. With our track record at drafting, hard to think one draft fixes that, so two drafts, and two years of keeping our own players that need to be kept and getting a few decent free agents and this team has a chance. Just have to keep Joe alive that long.

This is what I've come to think of as our "aging core problem." The guys taking up much of our cap space are core guys from the Marvin Lewis run. They are in declining production, and it seems the front office was in denial about that last year. Maybe they'll figure that out going forward, who knows. 

I do think our 2020 draft class will turn out to be excellent. Another one like that and I think we'll beat your three year prediction. But yeah, some things would have to break our way. 

[Joelist]

The question to me is not so much how long a rebuild takes but whether anyone has enough patience left to endure it. We've been trapped in this for literally decades (sorry but making the postseason and then losing promptly does not count). The last time a Bengals team was really worthwhile was 1988. Since then the fans (the few that are left) have gotten nothing for their fiscal and emotional investment.

What the front office (spit) needs to understand is they don't have the time for a slow process of improvement. We need winning RIGHT NOW. We need immediate success. Otherwise don't be surprised when what little fanbase the team still has just checks out.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-20-2020, 04:04 PM)impactplaya Wrote: It's funny how the Steelers excel in so many phases. How come the BROWN family cant look at the Rooney model of success

They do look at the Rooney model.
Quite a good amount of the top Steelers players are drafted.
The difference between the Bengals and Steelers right now is the Bengals aren't drafting/grooming players nearly as well.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(09-20-2020, 04:48 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They do look at the Rooney model.
Quite a good amount of the top Steelers players are drafted.
The difference between the Bengals and Steelers right now is the Bengals aren't drafting/grooming players nearly as well.

Good point. The Rooney model is what fans have always called "cheap." The difference is the Steelers have the coaching staff, the defense, and the veteran QB (rapist though he is) to pull it off. 

They also renegotiate veteran contracts left and right, which we never do because it kicks the can down the road. I'm not saying we should do that necessarily. I actually think the Steelers will fall off a cliff in 2021. They have numerous free agents and are projected to be way over the cap already. They'll "renegotiate" to make room, but that will only work so much. And Roethlisberger doesn't sound like somebody who wants to play much longer, especially if there's an exodus of talent. I've been predicting the Steelers downfall for years and have so far been wrong, but I think it happens this offseason. (In the meantime, sorry to say, they're the real deal in 2020). 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-20-2020, 05:04 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Good point. The Rooney model is what fans have always called "cheap." The difference is the Steelers have the coaching staff, the defense, and the veteran QB (rapist though he is) to pull it off. 

They also renegotiate veteran contracts left and right, which we never do because it kicks the can down the road. I'm not saying we should do that necessarily. I actually think the Steelers will fall off a cliff in 2021. They have numerous free agents and are projected to be way over the cap already. They'll "renegotiate" to make room, but that will only work so much. And Roethlisberger doesn't sound like somebody who wants to play much longer, especially if there's an exodus of talent. I've been predicting the Steelers downfall for years and have so far been wrong, but I think it happens this offseason. (In the meantime, sorry to say, they're the real deal in 2020). 

Yep. They restructure contracts nearly every year (or at least it seems).
Something I don't recall the Bengals doing (hardly) at all.

[impactplaya]

The.Steelers coaches and scouting dept is so many light
Years ahead of the Bengals

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Theyve been rebuilding since 2017 and u til they realize that offensive skill players can’t block for themselves and fix the O line the will continue to rebuild.

[*Synric*]

(09-20-2020, 09:38 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Theyve been rebuilding since 2017 and u til they realize that offensive skill players can’t block for themselves and fix the O line the will continue to rebuild.

Sad thing they have invested in the offensive line but it's all been duds so far with the exception of Jonah Williams where the jury is still out. 

I think the Bengals should bring in a new guy to help evaluate Offensive Linemen.. right now that guy is Jim McNally. 

Edit: The Jury is still out on Michael Jordan too.

[GreenCornBengal]

(09-20-2020, 04:15 PM)McC Wrote: Really?  NFL players are unprepared for a naked bootleg?  Hey,  if you keep flailing, you might just hit on a salient point.

Lol ya it looks like they weren’t prepared for a naked bootleg from what I saw. Not sure why you’re so feisty man.

[3wt]

(09-20-2020, 09:48 PM)Synric Wrote: Sad thing they have invested in the offensive line but it's all been duds so far with the exception of Jonah Williams where the jury is still out. 

I think the Bengals should bring in a new guy to help evaluate Offensive Linemen.. right now that guy is Jim McNally. 

Edit: The Jury is still out on Michael Jordan too.

That's what I'd like to see - as much as for the coaching as for the evaluation.   And I have to admit that the guys Turner has evaluated for the draft appear to look like they'll turn out.   The duds have been his apparent assessment (who knows what he really thinks) regarding primarily Bobby Hart

I liked this year's draft, but I have little confidence in our coaching.  And the aging core appears to be critical now.  I'll hold off on a final opinion to see if Geno gets healthy and AJ has a chance to play enough to compensate for his injuries and time not playing.  But neither are a good look - and I'm highly disappointed in Carlos.   He has shown nothing to me.

The offensive and defensive lines are terrible, with only Williams (so far) looking like he'll amount to anything. The fact that we can't get any pressure on the QB makes me think it's going to take at least two more drafts/ free agency periods to solve that problem.

And our wide receiver corps is really slow.  AJ (currently at least) looks OLD and Ross can't separate or get his head in the game.   I'd like to see them use Tate, Higgins and Thomas a lot - but again the only one of them with any speed is Thomas.

I'd be talking to J. McNally now, paying him as a consultant now and trying to lure him into coaching again

I don't know what you do about the defense.   We'll have to see how it pans out, but I was shocked how bad they looked against Cleveland.

[P W]

2-3 seasons, after Mike Brown passes.

[lone bengal]

I think it will take 2 -3 years until we’re serious contenders if things go accordingly. We have a franchise qb which is the most important piece. Far as the rest I’m not sure.

Front office: Had a great offseason will they continue to be aggressive? Is Tobin the guy going forward?

Head coach: Not sold Taylor’s the right guy yet and feel the same way about the rest of the staff.

Offensive overview:

QB - seems like a franchise QB
RT, RG. - answers aren’t on the roster
LT / LG - hopefully Williams / Jordan are the answer on the left side not sure yet.
TE - good with Sample for now , hopefully CJ recovers
RB - all set there with Mixon
WR - Boyd’s a good #2 , can Higgins be a #1 ? Ross is done and wouldn’t extend AJ.

Defensive overview:

DE - Dunlap best days behind him , Lawson not a every down player , Hubbard good/ future piece.
DT - Reader here for the long hall, need a future inside rusher, Atkins best day behind him.
LB - Bynes just a guy , hopefully Pratt and the rookies pan out
CB - Is Jackson III work an extension ? Alexander is a free agent in 2021 and don’t think Wayne’s is a number 1
S - Future looks pretty good hopefully Bates gets extended and Bell is here for a while.

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-21-2020, 04:33 PM)lone bengal Wrote: LB - Bynes just a guy

I think you mean a JAG.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I wouldn’t say definitively the RT/RG isn’t on the team. We haven’t even seen Adeniji yet.

[lone bengal]

(09-21-2020, 04:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wouldn’t say definitively the RT/RG isn’t on the team. We haven’t even seen Adeniji yet.

Agreed I would like to see him play over Bobby Hart who we know isn’t the answer. I know Adeniji had some good praise coming out of the draft I’m just not sure some 6th round pick will be the savior. I feel like we do this every year with bottom of the roster guys/ late draft picks , Westerman , Fred Johnson ect.

[Wes Mantooth]

I mean, the God's honest truth is probably at least until they bring in a GM to handle all football operations.

We've essentially been rebuilding for 29 years. The Brown family, and all of their merry men, need to step away from all football decisions, and let someone who actually knows what they're doing build this team.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-21-2020, 05:11 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Agreed I would like to see him play over Bobby Hart who we know isn’t the answer. I know Adeniji had some good praise coming out of the draft I’m just not sure some 6th round pick will be the savior. I feel like we do this every year with bottom of the roster guys/ late draft picks , Westerman , Fred Johnson ect.

Well, Hopkins wasn’t even drafted, and he has been at least serviceable at center. Certainly miles better than the guy we took in the 1st round.

I wouldn’t write off Adeniji just because he was a late round pick.