Posts: 8,657
Threads: 301
Reputation:
73238
Joined: Jan 2016
Location: Kettering, Ohio
It's time for an honest assessment of the Bengals' offensive line. It's the subject du jour of sports media and everyone seems to understand the line is horrible but to assess why, well, no one has done that yet.
It's not the players. These men were earth movers in college, even Billy Price. Of the five starters, only Jonah Williams is playing at minimal NFL-grade quality but I expect this to regress as the season goes on. Trey Hopkins is next best but the other three linemen stink so bad not even an airtight respirator cuts the smell. I don't care about PFF grades, either. This is not an NFL-quality offensive line and it hasn't been since 2015.
Let's shoo the elephant out of the room next and before I do this I want to say a few things. I do not want Andy Dalton back. I'm glad the Bengals parted ways with him and I'm happy he's back home in Dallas. From 2011-2015 Andy was the right man for the job and he has supplanted Jon Kitna as my favorite former Bengal...
...but let's not pretend changing quarterbacks made a dime's worth of difference at this point. With a better supporting cast Joe Burrow will turn out to be the best quarterback the Bengals ever had and maybe even become the GOAT. His upside is greater than Andy Dalton but right now even Lamar Jackson would be unsuccessful in Cincinnati.
The pass blocking is abysmal but the run blocking is worse. Joe Mixon managed just 48 rushing yards against the Eagles; possibly the worst defense in the NFC. Joe is talented. So is Giovani Bernard. There is no reason such great players should be hamstrung behind an offensive line which can't open a can of tuna much less a crease. Joe and Gio can't see a crease that's not there.
What I don't see is a specific scheme when either pass blocking or run blocking. Usually a trap blocking scheme is easy to spot, for example, but I see the Cincinnati offensive linemen reacting to the defense instead of locking up, sustaining the block, and turning the defensive player away from the play. That's the basic principle of offensive line play: Turn the defensive guy away from the play. This is true for both the run and the pass. If you watch Billy Price, for example, you'll see his head is on a swivel in pass protection and this bothers me. It means he is waiting for someone to block instead of being assigned someone specific to block. Paul Brown used to teach specific blocking assignments and his big secret was footwork; he believed lateral movement was critical for an offensive lineman because it allowed the lineman to keep his pads square before turning a defensive player a certain way. I see a lot of forward and backwards -- mostly backwards -- movement currently and this allows the defense open the gaps and grab Joe Mixon at the line of scrimmage or to pressure Joe Burrow.
Any scheme is better than no scheme -- and right now it looks like the Bengals' offensive line is playing pat-a-cake.
Posts: 1,481
Threads: 62
Reputation:
4841
Joined: May 2015
Write off this year and start Ryan Finley. I hope we make coaching changes soon and I hope the players we have improve (because yes they were good in college but it can take 3-4 years to become a good offensive lineman) or are replaced in FA. If they do, then we can start Burrow next year and make an amazing run all the way to the playoffs and beyond.
Posts: 13,654
Threads: 366
Reputation:
45993
Joined: May 2015
Burrow was hit most and sacked most during play action that no one feared. You knew they were playing with fire calling play action (him turning his back to defense) so much with a struggling run game.
How many hits and sacks came off play action would be interesting to know.
Burrow isn't going to make it this season. Just hope it's not a knee or throwing elbow/shoulder that takes him out. But he's not going to make it at this pace.
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous
"Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
Posts: 3,706
Threads: 23
Reputation:
17434
Joined: May 2015
They've been playing "musical chairs" with the offensive line for 19 games now, with no end in sight. Except now they're throwing a rookie QB into the fire after an extremely shortened off-season. They shouldn't be having to do this NINETEEN GAMES into this coaching regime. At what point does getting this fixed become non-negotiable in the eyes of upper management?
It's borderline criminal negligence. They are legitimately in trade territory now, and no veteran should be off limits. Get offensive line help in here NOW, however you can. If they don't get this corrected immediately, they have to bench Burrow. That's the future of your franchise, and he will not survive four games against the Ravens and Steelers.
Everything in this post is my fault.
Posts: 1,720
Threads: 30
Reputation:
6343
Joined: May 2015
If I were Joe Burrow, I would tell Taylor to start Finley the rest of the way until they have a line to protect him or say you have an injury to sit out, it worked for AJ last year.
Posts: 8,657
Threads: 301
Reputation:
73238
Joined: Jan 2016
Location: Kettering, Ohio
(09-28-2020, 11:03 AM)Big Boss Wrote: They've been playing "musical chairs" with the offensive line for 19 games now, with no end in sight. Except now they're throwing a rookie QB into the fire after an extremely shortened off-season. They shouldn't be having to do this NINETEEN GAMES into this coaching regime. At what point does getting this fixed become non-negotiable in the eyes of upper management?
It's borderline criminal negligence. They are legitimately in trade territory now, and no veteran should be off limits. Get offensive line help in here NOW, however you can. If they don't get this corrected immediately, they have to bench Burrow. That's the future of your franchise, and he will not survive four games against the Ravens and Steelers.
Absolutely right. Did you see the shot Deshaun Watson took from TJ Watt yesterday? I’m really afraid for Joe Burrow. His career is going to be very short and I can’t help thinking of Greg Cook.
Posts: 1,720
Threads: 30
Reputation:
6343
Joined: May 2015
(09-28-2020, 11:00 AM)jj22 Wrote: Burrow was hit most and sacked most during play action that no one feared. You knew they were playing with fire calling play action (him turning his back to defense) so much with a struggling run game.
How many hits and sacks came off play action would be interesting to know.
Burrow isn't going to make it this season. Just hope it's not a knee or throwing elbow/shoulder that takes him out. But he's not going to make it at this pace.
That is what everyone was telling him before the Draft, and they were right. Now Burrow is experiencing that realization.
Posts: 13,484
Threads: 133
Reputation:
89859
Joined: May 2015
The interior line is playing so bad right now in the run game. Even when they dont get beat to their gap off the snap they have zero power in their hands and DTs are shedding them like they arent there.
Posts: 8,657
Threads: 301
Reputation:
73238
Joined: Jan 2016
Location: Kettering, Ohio
The current record for the most sacked quarterback in a season is held by David Carr who went down 76 times in 2002 as a Houston Texan. If the current trend continues Joe Burrow will be sacked 85 times and break Carr’s record.
Posts: 13,654
Threads: 366
Reputation:
45993
Joined: May 2015
and we all know how it ended with Carr.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous
"Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
Posts: 13,484
Threads: 133
Reputation:
89859
Joined: May 2015
Bobby Hart has been the best offensive lineman on the team especially the last two games....Just let that sink in...
Posts: 666
Threads: 25
Reputation:
4264
Joined: Dec 2018
Location: Toledo, Ohio
The right side is not good at all but Jordan is just as bad at left guard. This hasn't been discussed much but he has a pff score right there with Fred Johnson. Both guard spots are horrid!!!
Posts: 5,565
Threads: 9
Reputation:
24514
Joined: Apr 2020
The front office needs to be beaten with sacks of soap and tarred and feathered. Pure neglect and irresponsibility. Astounding really
Tobin should lose his job.
If Burrow gets injured at all this season, I will lose my shit
Posts: 4,889
Threads: 124
Reputation:
22809
Joined: May 2015
Location: Oregon
(09-28-2020, 09:52 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: It's time for an honest assessment of the Bengals' offensive line. It's the subject du jour of sports media and everyone seems to understand the line is horrible but to assess why, well, no one has done that yet.
It's not the players. These men were earth movers in college, even Billy Price. Of the five starters, only Jonah Williams is playing at minimal NFL-grade quality but I expect this to regress as the season goes on. Trey Hopkins is next best but the other three linemen stink so bad not even an airtight respirator cuts the smell. I don't care about PFF grades, either. This is not an NFL-quality offensive line and it hasn't been since 2015.
Let's shoo the elephant out of the room next and before I do this I want to say a few things. I do not want Andy Dalton back. I'm glad the Bengals parted ways with him and I'm happy he's back home in Dallas. From 2011-2015 Andy was the right man for the job and he has supplanted Jon Kitna as my favorite former Bengal...
...but let's not pretend changing quarterbacks made a dime's worth of difference at this point. With a better supporting cast Joe Burrow will turn out to be the best quarterback the Bengals ever had and maybe even become the GOAT. His upside is greater than Andy Dalton but right now even Lamar Jackson would be unsuccessful in Cincinnati.
The pass blocking is abysmal but the run blocking is worse. Joe Mixon managed just 48 rushing yards against the Eagles; possibly the worst defense in the NFC. Joe is talented. So is Giovani Bernard. There is no reason such great players should be hamstrung behind an offensive line which can't open a can of tuna much less a crease. Joe and Gio can't see a crease that's not there.
What I don't see is a specific scheme when either pass blocking or run blocking. Usually a trap blocking scheme is easy to spot, for example, but I see the Cincinnati offensive linemen reacting to the defense instead of locking up, sustaining the block, and turning the defensive player away from the play. That's the basic principle of offensive line play: Turn the defensive guy away from the play. This is true for both the run and the pass. If you watch Billy Price, for example, you'll see his head is on a swivel in pass protection and this bothers me. It means he is waiting for someone to block instead of being assigned someone specific to block. Paul Brown used to teach specific blocking assignments and his big secret was footwork; he believed lateral movement was critical for an offensive lineman because it allowed the lineman to keep his pads square before turning a defensive player a certain way. I see a lot of forward and backwards -- mostly backwards -- movement currently and this allows the defense open the gaps and grab Joe Mixon at the line of scrimmage or to pressure Joe Burrow.
Any scheme is better than no scheme -- and right now it looks like the Bengals' offensive line is playing pat-a-cake.
I believe that drop/bucket step and head on a swivel are part of zone blocking. You don’t man up in that scheme unless you’re covered by a defender. I’m not a fan of it because you get your lineman moving back and then also being rushed, too much momentum going the wrong way.
Posts: 11,619
Threads: 131
Reputation:
59095
Joined: May 2015
(09-28-2020, 11:26 AM)jj22 Wrote: and we all know how it ended with Carr.
Cunningham got sacked 72 times in 86, let's not act like it's some sort of guarantee because one guy was shell shocked all will be. Obviously, getting sacked is bad but everyone goes straight to Carr. Watson was under siege badly his second year getting sacked 17 times over his first 4 games. If Burrow "only" takes 3 sacks next week he is then on the same pace Watson was through four games.
Again, I can't stress this enough, getting sacked is not good. That said, we need to calm down with the Carr comparisons because DeShaun Watson has been sacked almost as many times this season. Hell, Burrow's sack per drop back rate is 9% right now while Watson's is 12%.
Posts: 13,484
Threads: 133
Reputation:
89859
Joined: May 2015
At least the Bengals are symmetrical. The interior defensive line has been equally bad as the interior offensive line.
Posts: 1,709
Threads: 72
Reputation:
12348
Joined: May 2015
(09-28-2020, 11:03 AM)Big Boss Wrote: They've been playing "musical chairs" with the offensive line for 19 games now, with no end in sight. Except now they're throwing a rookie QB into the fire after an extremely shortened off-season. They shouldn't be having to do this NINETEEN GAMES into this coaching regime. At what point does getting this fixed become non-negotiable in the eyes of upper management?
It's borderline criminal negligence. They are legitimately in trade territory now, and no veteran should be off limits. Get offensive line help in here NOW, however you can. If they don't get this corrected immediately, they have to bench Burrow. That's the future of your franchise, and he will not survive four games against the Ravens and Steelers.
:andy: :andy: :andy: :andy: :andy:
Posts: 12,199
Threads: 214
Reputation:
56665
Joined: May 2015
Location: Lancaster, PA
(09-28-2020, 11:26 AM)jj22 Wrote: and we all know how it ended with Carr.
Carr's stats aren't even close to Burrow's.
Just sayin'.
Posts: 4,213
Threads: 21
Reputation:
26203
Joined: Jun 2015
It’s organizational malpractice to let the guy play. He’s clearly as advertised. Sit him. The only problem with this idea is that I guarantee he doesn’t want to sit no matter what...yet.
Posts: 480
Threads: 9
Reputation:
3280
Joined: Sep 2018
The idea of benching Burrow to save him for next year is one of the dumber things I've heard on this board in a while.
1
|
![[Image: giphy.gif]](http://media1.giphy.com/media/9EmYYw6o9cmsM/giphy.gif)
