Gotta Keep Building through FA

[BengalFanInNJ]

Judging on the organization's lack of success at drafting OL talent, I agree that targeting linemen in free agency is a must and probably the only sure-fire way to go when addressing the O-Line. Now that we have what could be an elite talent at QB, you do what it takes to protect him. I'm cool with Jonah Williams at LT and I guess Hopkins is ok at Center but every other position is wide open to improve.

Unfortunately, the Bengals will have to shell out more money to attract solid talent. The big-name free agent OL for next year (yes, they will all probably be re-signed or tagged) are:

Ronnie Stanley - OT
David Bakhtiari - OT
Trent Williams - OT
Alejandro Villanueva - OT
Taylor Moton - OT
Matt Feiler - OT
Joe Thuney - G
Brandon Scherff - G


I know I am missing some, but these guys got high grades last year and would immediately improve the Bengals line. Hell, some of the lesser-graded free agents would improve the line as well.

[Wire22Wire]

I’d keep geno through 2021

Uzomah and gio and hart are no brainer releases

That’s 16M there. Do you know the quality of RT or OL you can get for 15/m per year?

[Wire22Wire]

(10-06-2020, 12:12 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Judging on the organization's lack of success at drafting OL talent, I agree that targeting linemen in free agency is a must and probably the only sure-fire way to go when addressing the O-Line. Now that we have what could be an elite talent at QB, you do what it takes to protect him. I'm cool with Jonah Williams at LT and I guess Hopkins is ok at Center but every other position is wide open to improve.

Unfortunately, the Bengals will have to shell out more money to attract solid talent. The big-name free agent OL for next year (yes, they will all probably be re-signed or tagged) are:

Ronnie Stanley - OT
David Bakhtiari - OT
Trent Williams - OT
Alejandro Villanueva - OT
Taylor Moton - OT
Matt Feiler - OT
Joe Thuney - G
Brandon Scherff - G


I know I am missing some, but these guys got high grades last year and would immediately improve the Bengals line. Hell, some of the lesser-graded free agents would improve the line as well.

Yep. Gonna have to shell out.

I’d like a premier FA OL addition. And A vertical threat wr like Goodwin (or someone cheaper/durable)

And the first round pick to be defense bpa and the second round pick to be another O line, best olineman left

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-06-2020, 12:14 PM)Wire22Wire Wrote: Uzomah and gio and hart are no brainer releases

I think you can add Dunlap to this list.

He's due 13.5 million next year, and would carry no dead weight if he were released.

I know many on here like him, but there is no way he's worth that amount.  If he were to be released he'd be lucky to see half of this amount on the open market.  So matter how much some say that like him, why would you pay a guy over twice his worth.  (Fwiw. I honestly think he would struggle to see 5 mil per in free agency in 2021.)


I think you can take his savings and put a very healthy chunk of it towards Hubbard and/or Lawson.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-06-2020, 12:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think you can add Dunlap to this list.

He's due 13.5 million next year, and would carry no dead weight if he were released.

I know many on here like him, but there is no way he's worth that amount.  If he were to be released he'd be lucky to see half of this amount on the open market.  So matter how much some say that like him, why would you pay a guy over twice his worth.  (Fwiw. I honestly think he would struggle to see 5 mil per in free agency in 2021.)


I think you can take his savings and put a very healthy chunk of it towards Hubbard and/or Lawson.

You kinda need to have his replacement lined up, in order to just cut him loose.  I know that he's not recorded a sack this season, but his Tackle production is still good, and I believe he has a couple of PDs this season.  Could the lack of sacks be partly to blame on the injuries at DT?  With "insert player of the week name here" not drawing the same attention as Geno or Daniels, I'd guess that teams can plan for Dunlap a little easier.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-06-2020, 10:54 AM)ochocincos Wrote: WJ3 would be my priority for re-signing. The pass defense is actually good this year. WJ3 and Bates are the biggest contributors to that.
Lawson is worth extending too, but only to a point.

To each their own, but if it were me I'd probably let WJII walk this season, unless he was willing to sign for under 9 mil per season.

We already have 16 mil commited to Waynes next season.  We also have Alexander due to hit free agency after the season, and Bates to hit free agency the following year.

I'm guessing that WJIII is going to want well over 10 mil per.  And I don't know if I like the idea of commiting almost 30 mil to him and Waynes, when neither are anywhere close to elite corners.

Phillips has flashed at times, and Simms looked really good the other day.  I'd keep that pair with Waynes, and look to resign Alexander at a lesser amount than WJII, or I'd target a vet on a short deal in FA (See Darquez Dernard's market this season), and then round out the group with a middle round draft pick.

IMHO, cornerbacks are probably the most overpaid group there is.  Outside of the top guys, I'm not sure the middling ones are worth their market values, or can't be easily replaced.  Case in point, Dre Kirkpatrick.  I'll take a guy like Alexander at a fraction of the price over him any day of the week.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-06-2020, 12:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You kinda need to have his replacement lined up, in order to just cut him loose.  I know that he's not recorded a sack this season, but his Tackle production is still good, and I believe he has a couple of PDs this season.  Could the lack of sacks be partly to blame on the injuries at DT?  With "insert player of the week name here" not drawing the same attention as Geno or Daniels, I'd guess that teams can plan for Dunlap a little easier.

Lawson is a potential replacement.  You can also look towards free agency, and bring in a vet on a single year deal similar to the value a guy like Mike Daniels commanded as an aging vet.  And obviously there's the draft as well.

Fwiw, I'm not even that worried about the lack of sacks from Dunlap at this point.  It really doesn't matter who is around him, he's just not an elite DE. He's never been a big sack guy.  He's a good player, but he'll be 32 years old, and has been overpaid for the last 3 seasons.

With the no dead money, he's the most obvious cut I've ever seen.  No team keep a 32 year old DE that averages 8 sacks a year on a 13.5 million dollar deal.  It's just not done.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2020, 12:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: To each their own, but if it were me I'd probably let WJII walk this season, unless he was willing to sign for under 9 mil per season.

We already have 16 mil commited to Waynes next season.  We also have Alexander due to hit free agency after the season, and Bates to hit free agency the following year.

I'm guessing that WJIII is going to want well over 10 mil per.  And I don't know if I like the idea of commiting almost 30 mil to him and Waynes, when neither are anywhere close to elite corners.

Phillips has flashed at times, and Simms looked really good the other day.  I'd keep that pair with Waynes, and look to resign Alexander at a lesser amount than WJII, or I'd target a vet on a short deal in FA (See Darquez Dernard's market this season), and then round out the group with a middle round draft pick.

IMHO, cornerbacks are probably the most overpaid group there is.  Outside of the top guys, I'm not sure the middling ones are worth their market values, or can't be easily replaced.  Case in point, Dre Kirkpatrick.  I'll take a guy like Alexander at a fraction of the price over him any day of the week.

WJ3 is the only quality outside CB from a coverage perspective. Waynes is better at defending the run than pass.
Phillips and Alexander are better in the slot.

You could sell me on a 1st round CB if they move on from WJ3, but I'd want an upper-tier FA for OL if they move on from WJ3 since they wouldn't be spending a 1st round pick on OL.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-06-2020, 12:54 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Lawson is a potential replacement.  You can also look towards free agency, and bring in a vet on a single year deal similar to the value a guy like Mike Daniels commanded as an aging vet.  And obviously there's the draft as well.

Fwiw, I'm not even that worried about the lack of sacks from Dunlap at this point.  It really doesn't matter who is around him, he's just not an elite DE. He's never been a big sack guy.  He's a good player, but he'll be 32 years old, and has been overpaid for the last 3 seasons.

With the no dead money, he's the most obvious cut I've ever seen.  No team keep a 32 year old DE that averages 8 sacks a year on a 13.5 million dollar deal.  It's just not done.

I realize the cost/benefit ratio has moved away from the team's favor, and that it's time to start looking beyond Carlos.  Who are you going to replace Dunlap with?  I don't see Lawson as a suitable replacement for Dunlap.


Lawson can be a good player, but he's also hot/cold and has injury tendencies.  Additionally, Lawson on the edge is more of a speed guy/OLB than a head up, hand in the dirt, big-bodied true DE.  6'6" 280# with long arms is a lot of body to replace.  So, are you drafting the new DE, or are we fishing in free agency?

[Wire22Wire]

I swear, being a 30 year Reds/Bengals fan

It seems like the teams care more about:

1- the players personal feelings
2- the fans having to adjust to a new player
3 - the fans owning a potentially departed players jersey
4 - historical nostalgia

way more than just putting the best team on the field and making personnel decisions that better the team.

You also see it when ex players leave and then become available. Scooter, Bronson, Peko, Andre, etc. We always want mediocre, aged vets back in to contribute!

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-06-2020, 01:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: WJ3 is the only quality outside CB from a coverage perspective. Waynes is better at defending the run than pass.

If this is true then we just wasted a great deal of money on Trae Waynes.

He's being paid like a #1, shutdown corner.  I have to believe, that the team believes, that he's more than capable of playing on the outside, at a high level.

I know he's struggled in the pass at times, but the physical tools are there.  Even his draft position indicates that this is what he was initially scouted to be.

My hope with Waynes is that some of his struggles can be attributed Xavier Rhodes declining and then missing time, and needing a little more experience before taking over that role.  And I'm guessing that's the team's hope as well.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-06-2020, 01:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I realize the cost/benefit ratio has moved away from the team's favor, and that it's time to start looking beyond Carlos.  Who are you going to replace Dunlap with?  I don't see Lawson as a suitable replacement for Dunlap.


Lawson can be a good player, but he's also hot/cold and has injury tendencies.  Additionally, Lawson on the edge is more of a speed guy/OLB than a head up, hand in the dirt, big-bodied true DE.  6'6" 280# with long arms is a lot of body to replace.  So, are you drafting the new DE, or are we fishing in free agency?

I mean, like I just said, you keep Lawson, you target an aging vet on a single year deal, and you round on the group with a draft pick.

There's a very good chance Dunlap sees like 3 mil on the open market.  I'm actually calling for signing someone just like him.  Some aging guy who has had a good career, that doesn't command a big salary.

Hell, if you really want Dunlap, just cut him and then come back to him a month down the road and offer him 4 mil bucks for one year.  But whatever you do, don't leave his current contract intact.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-06-2020, 01:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, like I just said, you keep Lawson, you target an aging vet on a single year deal, and you round on the group with a draft pick.

There's a very good chance Dunlap sees like 3 mil on the open market.  I'm actually calling for signing someone just like him.  Some aging guy who has had a good career, that doesn't command a big salary.

Hell, if you really want Dunlap, just cut him and then come back to him a month down the road and offer him 4 mil bucks for one year.  But whatever you do, don't leave his current contract intact.

It's not that I'm being sentimental about Carlos Dunlap, it's also because in the 3-4 hybrid defense, it calls for two huge DE/DT types and a NT.  I'd be all for drafting a huge 3-4 style DE to grow into Dunlap's replacement. (and they can usually be found in middle rounds)  I really like the role that they are using Lawson in this season, as we're getting good production from him lining up off the ball, compared to having him up on the Tackle strictly trying to turn the corner.

[*Synric*]

(10-06-2020, 02:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not that I'm being sentimental about Carlos Dunlap, it's also because in the 3-4 hybrid defense, it calls for two huge DE/DT types and a NT.  I'd be all for drafting a huge 3-4 style DE to grow into Dunlap's replacement. (and they can usually be found in middle rounds)  I really like the role that they are using Lawson in this season, as we're getting good production from him lining up off the ball, compared to having him up on the Tackle strictly trying to turn the corner.

Dunlap has been playing 34 OLB. They do need to add another interior defensive linemen to play the 4/5 tech.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2020, 01:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: If this is true then we just wasted a great deal of money on Trae Waynes.

He's being paid like a #1, shutdown corner.  I have to believe, that the team believes, that he's more than capable of playing on the outside, at a high level.

I know he's struggled in the pass at times, but the physical tools are there.  Even his draft position indicates that this is what he was initially scouted to be.

My hope with Waynes is that some of his struggles can be attributed Xavier Rhodes declining and then missing time, and needing a little more experience before taking over that role.  And I'm guessing that's the team's hope as well.

Waynes has been rather consistently in the 60's in coverage according to PFF. That's decent. I wouldn't consider him "good" though.
His run defense has been 75+ the past 4 years.

For comparison, WJ3 has had a 70+ coverage rating 3 of the past 4 seasons.

[*psychdoctor*]

Team has many holes it seems.

LG-RG-RT: Not sold on Jordan. Maybe 2 positions via draft and 1 via FA. I think Hakeem will replace Hart. If so, they could draft both guards after season and let Johnson compete as backup Tackle at both spots.

DE-DE-DT-DT: Dunlap has fallen off some, not sure on Geno but he is elite when healthy. Draft DT-DE and 1 via FA if they decide to part with Geno. Maybe keep Dunlap one more year and draft his replacement. Lawson is good but health is wild card. Maybe try Brown at DE.

TE: Uzi was slow before injury, and Carter seems like a keeper with Sample. Draft a TE later in rounds.

WR-WR: Green is rusty after two years of non activity. Let Green walk, Let Ross walk. Bengals draft 1 elite WR first two rounds; 1 FA.

CB-CB-CB: I say they keep Alexander M, Wj3. Draft CB mid to late round.

[Big Boss]

You figure they gotta draft at least one receiver (we may very well cut Green and Ross lose this off-season), but they could really reinvent this offense in one off-season if they pick up some OL free agents and draft some guys. Have to do both.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(10-06-2020, 02:59 PM)Big Boss Wrote: You figure they gotta draft at least one receiver (we may very well cut Green and Ross lose this off-season), but they could really reinvent this offense in one off-season if they pick up some OL free agents and draft some guys.  Have to do both.

If they draft a receiver before addressing the offensive line I will lose my freaking mind. Not saying they shouldn't look at receivers, but, offensively it's not a huge need right now or even next year barring injury. 

[Wire22Wire]

(10-06-2020, 12:12 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Judging on the organization's lack of success at drafting OL talent, I agree that targeting linemen in free agency is a must and probably the only sure-fire way to go when addressing the O-Line. Now that we have what could be an elite talent at QB, you do what it takes to protect him. I'm cool with Jonah Williams at LT and I guess Hopkins is ok at Center but every other position is wide open to improve.

Unfortunately, the Bengals will have to shell out more money to attract solid talent. The big-name free agent OL for next year (yes, they will all probably be re-signed or tagged) are:

Ronnie Stanley - OT
David Bakhtiari - OT
Trent Williams - OT
Alejandro Villanueva - OT
Taylor Moton - OT
Matt Feiler - OT
Joe Thuney - G
Brandon Scherff - G


I know I am missing some, but these guys got high grades last year and would immediately improve the Bengals line. Hell, some of the lesser-graded free agents would improve the line as well.

Yeah, their last 4 high pick OL they've drafted have been:

Ogbuehi
Fisher
Price 
Jonah

3 zeros and one guy on his 4th game. 

Then again, they made a 'trade' for Cordy Glenn too, and signed Hart

Their entire OL program/development has been a joke for 5+ years. 

[Wire22Wire]

Unrelated to topic, can someone who has been on here for a while explain why this thread I started has a 1 star next to it? Is it due to my newness?

I am trying to figure some of the site features out, like reps etc. Thanks!