Outgunned on the O-line, What Can Be Done?

[samhain]

Yes are coaches are bad and yes our rookie quarterback needs to learn to stop holding onto the ball so long. Both are big problems. Even so, I'm still of the belief that the majority of our offensive issues stem from the line (no shit, right?)

Knowing that we have an assortment of bad to awful players (with the exception of maybe Jonah and Trey), and 11 games left to play, what's left that can be done to fix this in the short term? The guys we need to replace the right side likely aren't out on the street to sign. The Bengals have a rookie quarterback to keep in one piece, and the guys are just not getting it done.

The best I can manage to come up with is a renewed commitment to the run a-la Paul Brown. Let the guys up front attack more instead of retreating to pass protect all the time. Use the running back you invested in this offseason. Run the hell out of him, Gio and whoever else they want to throw out there. Get a fullback. I keep hearing how antiquated that concept is, but the team that just beat the shit out of us seems to value it enough.

This empty backfield, five-wide nonsense ain't it. Not with our personnel. They need more than the five guys up front to survive the blitzing that will come at them for the rest of the season.

Run it, run it, run it, then run it some more. They might even get decent enough at it to make opposing defenses think twice about the blitz. If they can't then they'll se a lot of games that will look a lot like this afternoon's debacle.

Hakeem Adenji and Fred Johnson aren't saviors any more than Price or Redmond were. Switch up the offensive strategy for the duration of the season and then retool when the offseason gets here if you want to go pass-heavy again.

[Joelist]

Start Adeniji and change the blocking scheme.

[Wire22Wire]

(10-11-2020, 10:26 PM)samhain Wrote: Yes are coaches are bad and yes our rookie quarterback needs to learn to stop holding onto the ball so long. Both are big problems. Even so, I'm still of the belief that the majority of our offensive issues stem from the line (no shit, right?)

Knowing that we have an assortment of bad to awful players (with the exception of maybe Jonah and Trey), and 11 games left to play, what's left that can be done to fix this in the short term? The guys we need to replace the right side likely aren't out on the street to sign. The Bengals have a rookie quarterback to keep in one piece, and the guys are just not getting it done.

The best I can manage to come up with is a renewed commitment to the run a-la Paul Brown. Let the guys up front attack more instead of retreating to pass protect all the time. Use the running back you invested in this offseason. Run the hell out of him, Gio and whoever else they want to throw out there. Get a fullback. I keep hearing how antiquated that concept is, but the team that just beat the shit out of us seems to value it enough.

This empty backfield, five-wide nonsense ain't it. Not with our personnel. They need more than the five guys up front to survive the blitzing that will come at them for the rest of the season.

Run it, run it, run it, then run it some more. They might even get decent enough at it to make opposing defenses think twice about the blitz. If they can't then they'll se a lot of games that will look a lot like this afternoon's debacle.

Hakeem Adenji and Fred Johnson aren't saviors any more than Price or Redmond were. Switch up the offensive strategy for the duration of the season and then retool when the offseason gets here if you want to go pass-heavy again.

I mean. They effectively have acquired 4 first round OLmen in the last 5 years and another high 2nd round pick in fisher. Of these 5, one of them starts - Jonah

Price. Fisher. Ogbuehi and glenn are/we’re all awful.

They just need better lineman. They need to buy lineman to compete next year

[Nicomo Cosca]

There’s no fixing this midseason unfortunately. Draft Penei Sewell, move Jonah to RT, and then focus on upgrading the guards.

I had a lot of hope for Jordan, but he just doesn’t look like starting caliber OG. Getting rid of Turner would probably help. I still can’t believe we didn’t bring Bill Callahan in considering his son is our “OC”

Cleveland looks like a playoff team, and watching them it seems like Mayfield has eternity on a lot of his throws.

[*bfine32*]

We gave up 7 sacks today; about 2 of them were because the Olineman got beat (Jonah and Bobby one each). The others were scheme and Joe thinking he's still in Baton Rogue.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-11-2020, 10:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We gave up 7 sacks today; about 2 of them were because the Olineman got beat (Jonah and Bobby one each). The others were scheme and Joe thinking he's still in Baton Rogue.

It’s not just the sacks though. Ton of pressures (3rd most coming into today) and virtually no time for plays to develop. Some of it is on Joe, but they’re giving him almost no chance most of the time.

Not to mention Mixon getting blown up in the backfield on a consistent basis.

[Joelist]

A lot of the pressures and sacks go back to defenders flying in unblocked like we saw today. And better scheming could at least lessen this problem. Like I said in a thread ditch the passive zone blocking and use a simple drive scheme - maybe they can actually execute it?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-11-2020, 10:42 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: There’s no fixing this midseason unfortunately. Draft Penei Sewell, move Jonah to RT, and then focus on upgrading the guards.

I had a lot of hope for Jordan, but he just doesn’t look like starting caliber OG. Getting rid of Turner would probably help. I still can’t believe we didn’t bring Bill Callahan in considering his son is our “OC”

Cleveland looks like a playoff team, and watching them it seems like Mayfield has eternity on a lot of his throws.

Sewell to RT, IMO.

Jonah is not the best run-blocker, as we've seen.

[*Synric*]

(10-11-2020, 10:50 PM)Joelist Wrote: A lot of the pressures and sacks go back to defenders flying in unblocked like we saw today. And better scheming could at least lessen this problem. Like I said in a thread ditch the passive zone blocking and use a simple drive scheme - maybe they can actually execute it?

Blocking scheme? It's about recognizing blitzes, setting the protections, and communicating it to the rest of the offense.

That falls on the Center and the QB. Which is the main reason I was all for Burrow staying in and taking that beating so he can see those blitz packages.

[Devils Advocate]

Motion.

It will Help the run and the pass. They did a lot of it against the jags. Barely any against the ravens- a team you have to use motion against to move defenders outta their fits.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-11-2020, 10:52 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Sewell to RT, IMO.

Jonah is not the best run-blocker, as we've seen.

Possibly. In the past you’d probably never see a top 2-3 pick at RT though.

[Joelist]

(10-11-2020, 10:54 PM)Synric Wrote: Blocking scheme? It's about recognizing blitzes, setting the protections, and communicating it to the rest of the offense.

That falls on the Center and the QB. Which is the main reason I was all for Burrow staying in and taking that beating so he can see those blitz packages.

Blocking scheme is also about HOW the line engages the defense. We have seen this before - the team for some inexplicable reason love these passive zone read schemes which are complex and place a huge premium on both lateral agility and excellent communications and awareness. Our line obviously is not able to execute it so ditch it and use old fashioned drive blocking - it's simpler and they are more likely to do it somewhat correctly. 

[samhain]

(10-11-2020, 10:50 PM)Joelist Wrote: A lot of the pressures and sacks go back to defenders flying in unblocked like we saw today. And better scheming could at least lessen this problem. Like I said in a thread ditch the passive zone blocking and use a simple drive scheme - maybe they can actually execute it?

That's where I am with it.  The line sucked in 2017, too.  They still got better when Lazor took over run-game coordinating duties from PA.  O-linemen want to drive block.  Let them be aggressive.  

I get that Burrow and Taylor want to throw, throw, throw.  Taylor always takes about installing stuff from LSU that Burrow likes.  That's not going to work in the here and now against good defenses.  They can't let teams pin their ears back in 2nd, 3rd and long.  The drives will die before they start.

[impactplaya]

When you.have a inept oline coach with.guys like Jordan Richmond
And Hart its a recipie for failure.
Sometimes a brillant oline coach can make average oline talent look
Really.good cause of scheme.
Sometimes a really talented oline can make a average oline coach look.good.
The Bengals have neither.

[Joelist]

(10-11-2020, 11:03 PM)Synric Wrote: Everything in this post is wrong. Zone blocking is not pass protection. 

Actually yes it is. It is one of the possible pass protection methods. From Football 101:

Zone pass blocking

Pass blocking can be the weakness of the ZBS, especially if all the offensive linemen are sub-300 pound players. In passing situations, defensive linemen will simply use their size and strength to overpower the smaller offensive linemen in front of them. Where ZBS does assist in pass blocking, however, is when a defensive line stunts. Using the same basic principles of a ZBS running play, if a defensive tackle and defensive end are swapping rushing lanes, the offensive linemen can pass off the blocking responsibilities to each other. While this will obviously work in a power blocking scheme as well, the ZBS experience makes it a practiced handoff.
For example, a defensive tackle is moving outside while the defensive end moves behind him to take the inside pass rush. The guard can initially block the defensive tackle, and, as soon as the stunt is recognized, pass the defensive tackle to the offensive tackle, then move to block the defensive end. It is a quick reaction, but it is one that the rehearsed ZBS offensive line can easily accomplish.

[*Synric*]

(10-11-2020, 11:07 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually yes it is. It is one of the possible pass protection methods. From Football 101:

Zone pass blocking

Pass blocking can be the weakness of the ZBS, especially if all the offensive linemen are sub-300 pound players. In passing situations, defensive linemen will simply use their size and strength to overpower the smaller offensive linemen in front of them. Where ZBS does assist in pass blocking, however, is when a defensive line stunts. Using the same basic principles of a ZBS running play, if a defensive tackle and defensive end are swapping rushing lanes, the offensive linemen can pass off the blocking responsibilities to each other. While this will obviously work in a power blocking scheme as well, the ZBS experience makes it a practiced handoff.
For example, a defensive tackle is moving outside while the defensive end moves behind him to take the inside pass rush. The guard can initially block the defensive tackle, and, as soon as the stunt is recognized, pass the defensive tackle to the offensive tackle, then move to block the defensive end. It is a quick reaction, but it is one that the rehearsed ZBS offensive line can easily accomplish.

It's different you dont drive block.

[samhain]

(10-11-2020, 10:52 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Sewell to RT, IMO.

Jonah is not the best run-blocker, as we've seen.

I'm fine with either.  Need a guard, too.  The guard play is atrocious.  Spend money on a vet.  

Hell, I'd be willing to draft one early if there's a Quentin Nelson caliber talent there.  He changed that Indy line quick after years of it being so bad that their qb packed up and left.  A great guard can have a big impact.

[Joelist]

Dude look at your original post where you said zone blocking is not pass protection.

Where drive blocking helps pass protection is it can be successful in getting running going which helps calm down pass rushes. It also improves the attitude and morale of the line. In pass scenarios it is more man blocking obviously.

[*Synric*]

(10-11-2020, 11:14 PM)Joelist Wrote: Dude look at your original post where you said zone blocking is not pass protection.

Where drive blocking helps pass protection is it can be successful in getting running going which helps calm down pass rushes. It also improves the attitude and morale of the line. In pass scenarios it is more man blocking obviously.

I wanted to rephrase what I was saying. In zone pass protection a linemen uses a pass set and is responsible for a certain gap. You don't drive block in pass sets. 

What your talking about is play action. Even zone blocking run blocking tight zone inside zone etc the linemen are drive blocking.

You keep saying zone run blocking is passive this is wrong. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-11-2020, 11:13 PM)samhain Wrote: I'm fine with either.  Need a guard, too.  The guard play is atrocious.  Spend money on a vet.  

Hell, I'd be willing to draft one early if there's a Quentin Nelson caliber talent there.  He changed that Indy line quick after years of it being so bad that their qb packed up and left.  A great guard can have a big impact.

And honestly our guards are worse than our tackles. I still really want Sewell though.