Offensive Line: It's NOT the Players. It's the Scheme

[Fan_in_Kettering]

What do Billy Price, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jonah Williams, Jake Fisher, and Russell Bodine all have in common?

Simple: They were among the highest graded players at their respective positions in college. I offer the example of these five offensive linemen as a microcosm of the Bengals' trench problems over the years. How is it that college stars are drafted early by Cincinnati and let's just use the word underperform in the NFL?

Coaching is the issue. The hapless Jim Turner never created a dominant offensive line anywhere else in the NFL so why anyone thinks this will magically happen in Cincinnati is pazzo. That's Italian for mishuganah. Frank Pollack built a great line in Dallas and really never had a chance to make his mark with the Bengals so we'll throw that data point out as an outlier. Paul Alexander is the chameleon coach because some of his lines were outstanding early on but some of them stank up Paul Brown Stadium.

Therefore, I believe the difference is this: Paul Alexander's scheme was bad while Jim Turner's scheme is incorrect. Let's define scheme before going further; scheme is the set, the blocking technique, and the blocking assignment. "Mister Hart, you set up angled inward, drive block the defensive end, and turn him inside." A good lineman can overcome a bad scheme but an incorrect scheme is the death knell for the entire line.

This is why the lines composed of players like Rich Braham, Willie Anderson, and Levi Jones had success. They possessed the talent to overcome a bad scheme. No one, not even Jonah Williams, can overcome an incorrect and outdated scheme. Jim Turner might have a gruff, mean exterior but this does not translate into effective blocking technique. Defensive linemen are no longer fat blubber-filled lumbering Stay-Puft Marshmallow Men; they are big, strong, and fast. Merely pushing against them like moving a refrigerator is an exercise in futility. As Dave Lapham says, whoever has the lowest pad level wins. I don't see low pads among the Bengals' linemen; I see them get stood up and beaten on every play.

On the radio I've heard excellent commentary about technique from Willie Anderson and Joe Walter and I believe these two men -- and other former players -- should be coaching the offensive line. Jim Turner is going to be an accessory to assault because Joe Burrow is getting beat up for his lunch money back there. Joe Mixon is getting stuffed like a Thanksgiving turkey. There is no excuse for this, none. Fixing this incorrect scheme cannot wait until next year. It cannot even wait until next week.

[CorpusChristiBengal]

Billy Price and Bobby Hart are just bad. Consider that JW is actually good.
I agree coaching can a long way but it's not exactly a star studded OL either.

[Gdale_Bengal]

Price, oogieboogie we’re both bad picks. They are bad players.

Jim Turner needs tired. I’ve said that for forever.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

NBA is a player league. MLB is a GM league NFL is a coaching league you scheme to play to your strengths and mask weaknesses. We have a bad head coach so we have a terrible team. Marvin was a good Regular season coach and terrible playoff coach. Taylor is just a terrible coach period.

[impactplaya]

(10-12-2020, 08:46 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: What do Billy Price, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jonah Williams, Jake Fisher, and Russell Bodine all have in common?

Simple:  They were among the highest graded players at their respective positions in college.  I offer the example of these five offensive linemen as a microcosm of the Bengals' trench problems over the years.  How is it that college stars are drafted early by Cincinnati and let's just use the word underperform in the NFL?  

Coaching is the issue.  The hapless Jim Turner never created a dominant offensive line anywhere else in the NFL so why anyone thinks this will magically happen in Cincinnati is pazzo.  That's Italian for mishuganah.  Frank Pollack built a great line in Dallas and really never had a chance to make his mark with the Bengals so we'll throw that data point out as an outlier.  Paul Alexander is the chameleon coach because some of his lines were outstanding early on but some of them stank up Paul Brown Stadium.

Therefore, I believe the difference is this:  Paul Alexander's scheme was bad while Jim Turner's scheme is incorrect.  Let's define scheme before going further; scheme is the set, the blocking technique, and the blocking assignment.  "Mister Hart, you set up angled inward, drive block the defensive end, and turn him inside."  A good lineman can overcome a bad scheme but an incorrect scheme is the death knell for the entire line.

This is why the lines composed of players like Rich Braham, Willie Anderson, and Levi Jones had success.  They possessed the talent to overcome a bad scheme.  No one, not even Jonah Williams, can overcome an incorrect and outdated scheme.  Jim Turner might have a gruff, mean exterior but this does not translate into effective blocking technique.  Defensive linemen are no longer fat blubber-filled lumbering Stay-Puft Marshmallow Men; they are big, strong, and fast.  Merely pushing against them like moving a refrigerator is an exercise in futility.  As Dave Lapham says, whoever has the lowest pad level wins.  I don't see low pads among the Bengals' linemen; I see them get stood up and beaten on every play.  

On the radio I've heard excellent commentary about technique from Willie Anderson and Joe Walter and I believe these two men -- and other former players -- should be coaching the offensive line.  Jim Turner is going to be an accessory to assault because Joe Burrow is getting beat up for his lunch money back there.  Joe Mixon is getting stuffed like a Thanksgiving turkey.  There is no excuse for this, none.  Fixing this incorrect scheme cannot wait until next year.  It cannot even wait until next week.  

Jim.Turner is the worst position coach in the entire league.
Instead of getting best qualified Zac choose a best friend.

Ive noticed a disturbing trend where Turner has no.answer 
For the other teams best pass rusher 
Joey Bosa inflicted damaged.
Myles Garrett had a key strip sack 
Was it Brandon Graham that went off for the Eagles?

Then Calis Campbell.is getting a free lane to Burrow 

Another thing Im.seeing that this teams strenghts program 
Is not equating to field of play.
Our lineman are losing the battle at the point of attack.
Look like Tarzan play like Jane.

And the footwear is atricious in pass pro.

Communication is lacking and thats on Turner and Zac.

Any suceessful Bengals team that went to.the playoffs and beyond had strong and SMART olinemen. 

Look at the oline. HART JORDAN REDMOND COULD NOT START.FOR ANY OTHER FRANCHISE.

Oh yeah Alex nice day with 3 penalties.

[Nati#1]

Zac Taylor will not swallow his pride and get rid of Turner. He brought Turner in. Zac Taylor will not accept his own mistakes. He will blame everyone else first.

[bengaloo]

I'm all for Turner being replaced. The OL has shown no improvement under him at all. No development of younger players at all. And his resume isnt that good as others have mentioned. Of course none of this staff has the resume on their side.

But yesterday was more than just the OL. It was a combination of OL, scheme and Burrow never seeing anything like the Ravens blitz schemes in his life until then. What gets me is that we cant run block against any DL that is above average. We have a stud RB and we should be able to use him to take pressure off Burrow, but that aint happening. Burrow is getting hammered and having to carry too much for a rookie.

Turner should be gone. I doubt they will mid season but I dont doubt that he will be gone as soon as the season is over.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-12-2020, 10:46 AM)bengaloo Wrote: I'm all for Turner being replaced. The OL has shown no improvement under him at all. No development of younger players at all. And his resume isnt that good as others have mentioned. Of course none of this staff has the resume on their side.

But yesterday was more than just the OL. It was a combination of OL, scheme and Burrow never seeing anything like the Ravens blitz schemes in his life until then. What gets me is that we cant run block against any DL that is above average. We have a stud RB and we should be able to use him to take pressure off Burrow, but that aint happening. Burrow is getting hammered and having to carry too much for a rookie.

Turner should be gone. I doubt they will mid season but I dont doubt that he will be gone as soon as the season is over.

I agree with that, so who are the likely candidates to replace Turner?  Think on this before you make up your mind, as most of the good OL coaches will be in the playoffs, thus delaying the possibility of interview and hire.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-12-2020, 10:54 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree with that, so who are the likely candidates to replace Turner?  Think on this before you make up your mind, as most of the good OL coaches will be in the playoffs, thus delaying the possibility of interview and hire.

Forget hiring a coach: Hire a former player or two like Joe Walter and Willie Anderson who understand proper technique. I’ve always thought former players like Tony Dungy or Mike Ditka make the best coaches.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Even a under achiever Like Garrett or BoB would be major improvement over Taylor. Taylor is a 21st century Shula. Dave not Don

[SunsetBengal]

(10-12-2020, 11:01 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Forget hiring a coach: Hire a former player or two like Joe Walter and Willie Anderson who understand proper technique.  I’ve always thought former players like Tony Dungy or Mike Ditka make the best coaches.

I don't disagree about former players making good coaches.  What we need to keep our franchise QB among the able bodied, walking members of society is leadership and direction, a proven track record of success.  Would hiring a fresh new OL coach based solely upon the idea that he was a good player provide that?  I'm not so sure.

I'd rather they hire a qualified coach with an above average track record that's not only capable of installing a scheme, but also able to communicate what's going on to the players, as well as critique and teach key fundamentals that linemen should already have coming out of college.

[bengaloo]

(10-12-2020, 10:54 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree with that, so who are the likely candidates to replace Turner?  Think on this before you make up your mind, as most of the good OL coaches will be in the playoffs, thus delaying the possibility of interview and hire.

Mike Sherman? He's Zac's father in law and has experience coaching OL. I like Callahan too, but he got hired somewhere. My knowledge of OL coaches isnt very good though I must admit. Even finding one from the college ranks, as long as they did very well where they coached, would be fine by me.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Nah, it's both. Og sucks, Price sucks, Fisher sucked, Jordan isn't very good, Redmond is below average.

[*Synric*]

Finding a good offensive line coach is harder than finding a good offensive coordinator. Not only do they teach technique most serve as run game coordinators. Offensive line is also the hardest position area to scout/draft.

Most Offensive Line coaches stay in one spot for many years especially the good ones and if they are up to be poached a bunch of teams are usually interested.

Ed Warinner might be a guy the Bengals should look at this offseason.

[Joelist]

Kettering is right. When one player fails to perform at or near their college level it is a player problem (happens to every team). When multiple players do this you have to look at the coaching and scheme and technique being taught.

The blocking scheme is defective - our linemen always are too high and they also retreat immediately making for a tiny pocket. In the run game they don't fly off the snap driving into the defense. They lack aggressiveness. Communication is obviously a problem and so is reaction. So, we are using a scheme that is too complex for the current state of the line. It needs to be simplified into something that they CAN process and execute.

[jwalker3853]

I agree it's a coaching / scheme problem. Thinking outside the box a bit and knowing anyone who is proven within the NFL isn't going to be available, but wonder what folks would think about the Wisconsin Badger's OL coach - Joe Rudolph. He is their offensive coordinator as well as OLine coach and has consistently produced high performing linemen in college - some of which have been drafted into the NFL. I'd have to do some more digging to see how many of them worked out within the NFL, but he may be a consideration. Assuming he is interested in coaching in the NFL.

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/football/roster/coaches/joe-rudolph/1567

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-12-2020, 11:58 AM)Joelist Wrote: Kettering is right. When one player fails to perform at or near their college level it is a player problem (happens to every team). When multiple players do this you have to look at the coaching and scheme and technique being taught.

The blocking scheme is defective - our linemen always are too high and they also retreat immediately making for a tiny pocket. In the run game they don't fly off the snap driving into the defense. They lack aggressiveness. Communication is obviously a problem and so is reaction. So, we are using a scheme that is too complex for the current state of the line. It needs to be simplified into something that they CAN process and execute.

Yes, but how many times have we had to simplify the blocking scheme recently? Lazor did it, Turner did it last year.....while coaching may certainly be an issue, lack of talent is DEFINITELY an issue. That 2015 draft crippled this team, Billy Price didn't help matters.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-12-2020, 12:04 PM)jwalker3853 Wrote: I agree it's a coaching / scheme problem.    Thinking outside the box a bit and knowing anyone who is proven within the NFL isn't going to be available, but wonder what folks would think about the Wisconsin Badger's OL coach - Joe Rudolph.    He is their offensive coordinator as well as OLine coach and has consistently produced high performing linemen in college - some of which have been drafted into the NFL.    I'd have to do some more digging to see how many of them worked out within the NFL, but he may be a consideration.   Assuming he is interested in coaching in the NFL.  

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/football/roster/coaches/joe-rudolph/1567

At one point, they consistently turned out pro ready linemen. We had one, but Mikey didn't want to pay him.

[Joelist]

(10-12-2020, 12:05 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yes, but how many times have we had to simplify the blocking scheme recently? Lazor did it, Turner did it last year.....while coaching may certainly be an issue, lack of talent is DEFINITELY an issue. That 2015 draft crippled this team, Billy Price didn't help matters.

Just keep it simplified until the line gels and can execute the more exotic stuff properly. Stop this "simplify it then next season go right back to the failed concepts" business. Also, using a simpler scheme does not mean the players are bad automatically. I mean, even our great lines with Braham and Levi and company did not use complicated schemes - they just had sound technique and relatively simple schemes they executed correctly consistently. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-12-2020, 12:31 PM)Joelist Wrote: Just keep it simplified until the line gels and can execute the more exotic stuff properly. Stop this "simplify it then next season go right back to the failed concepts" business. Also, using a simpler scheme does not mean the players are bad automatically. I mean, even our great lines with Braham and Levi and company did not use complicated schemes - they just had sound technique and relatively simple schemes they executed correctly consistently. 

Agree on that....but we do have some pretty bad guards, and this simplifying things has been an issue across 3 different oline coaches and two HCs. Missing assignments is one thing, but watching Price get knocked on his ass, Hart getting manhandled, Redmond doing Redmond things, and Jordan getting beat over and over isn't all on coaching. Hopkins seems to do fine, and Williams is learning the game every week. My opinion is it's a little of both.