What Joe can do to help himself

[Au165]

(10-14-2020, 03:12 PM)Synric Wrote: Simply the Bengals need to block better....

The lack of consistency or even threat of the ground game is dictating how defenses are playing the Bengals. Until the Bengals can run the ball consistently the playbook will be hampered, they will be behind the sticks, and Burrow will be underpressure.

I'd love to see more motion. We are middle to lower end of the league in pre-play motion and I think there is something to be added in holding linebackers' eyes with the motion. We have to manufacture "blocking" somehow and at this point Motion, RPO, etc are ways we can create the illusion of better blocking.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-14-2020, 02:38 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: With the o-line, it may be indeed be poor coaching and problems with the scheme that's playin a big part, but when you go back and re-watch games...there's no getting around the fact that these linemen get pushed around and beaten off the snap way too often. I don't think it's a stretch to say this group, overall, just isn't very talented and they don't have the greatest awareness when it comes to navigating their areas in zone or winning their matchups in man. 

As for Joe, I think he has the makings of an elite QB. Unfortunately, there are some very real limitations to the offensive unit this year and I think he has to make better decisions when things go wrong. It's also up to Zac and Brian to help him out and put him in better situations to be successful as well. Having a more consistent running attack would do wonders for Joe as well.

You nailed all of this, but I want to focus on that last sentence. As we all should remember, Taylor said from day 1 they were going to run a version of the Rams offense, which is heavily dependant on play action. When you can't run, play action isn't going to fool many people. To me, the Jacksonville game showed us a glimpse of how this offense should look....if you can run the ball. If we had good blocking, it might just look like that every week.

[Au165]

So some examples of what I am talking about in terms of embracing spread and using a lot of pre snap motion to hold guys.

This is an example of a jet motion with the same pin and pull toss we have been running out of shotgun for weeks, could also be done with orbit motion. The motion to the side you normally run to out of shotgun pulls the defens inside allowing the back to get wide with the pin and pull blcoking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhbPazHmPtA

Now here is an example of an orbit motion starting to give a defense a similar look, but instead the reciever returns allowing for essentially a wide handoff/swing pass outside to the reciever. KC runs this play a lot!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikI-lFSJkjA

This is a orbit motion CAR used to run when Cam was there. The motion to McCafferey was set up earlier, and they always have the threat of the inside zone. Instead, here they show the orbit screen but the back sneaks out on the screen instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flIbV9VF6uM

Here is an example of the RPO I was talking about earlier. The inside action pulls the LB down and the QB puts the slant right behind the LB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EleeVZgeqk0

This is an example of a trips/inside zone RPO I want us to do more of. The inside defender is timid here thinking he needs to fill to stop the inside zone which allows the slot WR to release out to the flat (Safety has eyes but has no chance to close) while the other receivers go vertical. QB reads the hesitation and delivers, great play to the wide side of the field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLiJPAL7eLc

I think it would do us well to completley embrace the spread because we can essentially negate a lot of our blocking issues through misdirection and confusion. Baltimore and Pittsburgh presnap motion more than any other teams in the league, there is a reason for that.

[kevin]

(10-14-2020, 02:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Joe has talked often about what he can / needs to do better, so 'nothing' isn't really accurate. 

Yes, the constant pressure makes things more difficult for sure...but there are things Joe can do on his end as well, even in the midst of the pressure. Not sure why anyone would disagree with that?

Look, it's the luck of the draft.  Big Ben went to Steelers already a power.  Now if he had been a rookie with 2020 Bengals, No Way does he ever get early in his career Super Bowl rings.  Big Ben was lucky to go to a good team, some rookies get lucky.   Then other rookies like Burrow go to worst team in NFL in 2019.  But Joe Heisman is not Superman.  It really is up to Mike Brown on down to make sure this line doesn't get him killed like Cook or Carson Top Picks.  The Coaches and O Line should be helping the Top Pick Rookie, they should not be putting it all on the rookie.  Well, now we are back to the luck of the draft.  Burrow went to worst team in NFL, and like many Bengals QBs before him, he will discover no matter what play he calls, he can not block for them.  If they can't block, they can't block, get new blockers. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-14-2020, 03:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: So some examples of what I am talking about in terms of embracing spread and using a lot of pre snap motion to hold guys.

This is an example of a jet motion with the same pin and pull toss we have been running out of shotgun for weeks, could also be done with orbit motion. The motion to the side you normally run to out of shotgun pulls the defens inside allowing the back to get wide with the pin and pull blcoking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhbPazHmPtA

Now here is an example of an orbit motion starting to give a defense a similar look, but instead the reciever returns allowing for essentially a wide handoff/swing pass outside to the reciever. KC runs this play a lot!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikI-lFSJkjA

This is a orbit motion CAR used to run when Cam was there. The motion to McCafferey was set up earlier, and they always have the threat of the inside zone. Instead, here they show the orbit screen but the back sneaks out on the screen instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flIbV9VF6uM

I think it would do us well to completley embrace the spread because we can essentially negate a lot of our blocking issues through misdirection and confusion. Baltimore and Pittsburgh presnap motion more than any other teams int he league, there is a reason for that.

Agreed, the staff is just going to have to quit trying to shove round pegs in square holes. I have an idea of what they're trying to do, put they don't have the personnel to pull it off. It's time to shake things up.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-14-2020, 01:53 PM)Sigfox77 Wrote: I was thinking what could help him the most is having our OC call more plays that emphasize drags, slants, quick outs. Steelers really seem to do a nice job with this type of gameplan and then take shots down field selectively. 

Remember how we used to complain about Ken Zampese and Bill Lazor calling plays?
They are better than Taylor.

[Bengalholic]

(10-14-2020, 03:31 PM)kevin Wrote: Look, it's the luck of the draft.  Big Ben went to Steelers already a power.  Now if he had been a rookie with 2020 Bengals, No Way does he ever get early in his career Super Bowl rings.  Big Ben was lucky to go to a good team, some rookies get lucky.   Then other rookies like Burrow go to worst team in NFL in 2019.  But Joe Heisman is not Superman.  It really is up to Mike Brown on down to make sure this line doesn't get him killed like Cook or Carson Top Picks.  The Coaches and O Line should be helping the Top Pick Rookie, they should not be putting it all on the rookie.  Well, now we are back to the luck of the draft.  Burrow went to worst team in NFL, and like many Bengals QBs before him, he will discover no matter what play he calls, he can not block for them.  If they can't block, they can't block, get new blockers. 

Don't disagree...but not sure how any of that eliminates the need for Joe to make better decisions at times when it come to plays breaking down, trying to extend plays under pressure or checking down/throwing it away if it isn't there. Again, Joe has talked about these things himself. He recognizes he has to do better at times. It's just a matter of him incorporating it as he grows and learns. Those are things that will benefit him in the future too, not just this season. Not sure why that's a difficult concept. 

[Mer]

I agree with getting the running game going to help out the pass. But it can't be reactive blocking. They need to drive block and line Mixon up behind Burrow so he can get a head of steam and plow through the line for 3+ yards per carry. It would be nice if they had a true fullback and larger,250#+, RB as well. I can't stand how the O-line waits for the D-line to move first and then reacts. Fire off the ball and hit someone!!

[Destro]

Ross is still on the team. Maybe he can teach him how to run faster.

[*bengalfan74*]

I didn't read the whole thread so it's probably already been said but stop thinking he has to be hercules on every play. Figure out he can't save this season by himself.

I'm not saying at all start tanking. Just know when it's time to slide, go down, throw it away.

[reuben.ahmed]

put gio in the game all downs and check down to him before any sack

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-14-2020, 01:50 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Audible to more quick passes and screens. Maybe I’ve missed it but when is the last time we ran a WR bubble screen or a TE screen? Those are staples of a lot of the good offenses in the NFL.

Haven't seen a single WR bubble screen, and with Ross's speed it should be run 2-3 times every game.  Sure, you all hate Ross, but that play is tailer (get it?) made for him.  He makes one man miss, he is gone.  They start crowding the line?  Pump and go route.  It should be easy, even for Ross.  Fricking middle school teams would know how to use a track athlete for a few plays.  Not this turd storm of a coaching unit.

The TE screen they run once every couple games.  It averages 10-15 yards every time.  I can see why they run it so infrequently. 

And how about just plain old running the damn ball?  We paid a shit ton of money to a RB and have two that are very capable.  They need to come out firing off the ball and pound some people.  What good is having the two biggest guards in the league when they are always retreating?  

It just amazes me...the absolute stupidity of these coaches.  Giving Lou Anarumo a pass on being called stupid as he had a great plan against the Rats.  

[Sled21]

(10-15-2020, 09:12 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It just amazes me...the absolute stupidity of these coaches.  Giving Lou Anarumo a pass on being called stupid as he had a great plan against the Rats.  

Lou, IMO, is coaching his azz off even with the decimation at DT...

[impactplaya]

(10-15-2020, 09:12 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Haven't seen a single WR bubble screen, and with Ross's speed it should be run 2-3 times every game.  Sure, you all hate Ross, but that play is tailer (get it?) made for him.  He makes one man miss, he is gone.  They start crowding the line?  Pump and go route.  It should be easy, even for Ross.  Fricking middle school teams would know how to use a track athlete for a few plays.  Not this turd storm of a coaching unit.

The TE screen they run once every couple games.  It averages 10-15 yards every time.  I can see why they run it so infrequently. 

And how about just plain old running the damn ball?  We paid a shit ton of money to a RB and have two that are very capable.  They need to come out firing off the ball and pound some people.  What good is having the two biggest guards in the league when they are always retreating?  

It just amazes me...the absolute stupidity of these coaches.  Giving Lou Anarumo a pass on being called stupid as he had a great plan against the Rats.  

You and I have been preaching this since the offseason.
I spent 11 years calling plays in a press box at the hs level.

1st rule of playcalling...cater your plays to the skill set
Of your talent. Better to do.5 plays great than trying to do 100 average.make the defense overthink everythink.
Keep the defense guessing. Control the middle of the field.

Defenses have the playcall figured out as soon as the lineman
Get set. ZT gets out coached every game. 
Progress to him is kicking a FG in the last 20 to avoid a shutout

[higgy100]

(10-14-2020, 01:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The reality is that this line is just bad and that it's probably not going to get much better any time soon, with the interior of this line is especially bad. The pressures are going to continue, but Joe can do his part in helping cut down the sacks.

I realize he's a rookie and he's still learning every week, but there are times he holds onto the ball way too long in attempts to make something happen, even when being swarmed by pressure. Gutsy and admiral, but given how bad our receivers are at creating separation...it's probably better to just throw it away on most of those occasions, avoiding the sack, possible interception or even fumbling because he's getting chased / hit from behind while trying to extend a play or create something out of nothing. 

This line and receiving corps is not really set up to be successful with plays that take time to develop. Joe has to be willing to check down more often as well. He has said himself he needs to be better at taking what's there, and I couldn't agree more. Overall, I think Joe has done a helluva good job, given his situation and circumstances around him. While I don't want to necessarily take away his natural inclination to be creative and never give up on a play, I do want him to realize he may need to reign that in a bit for now and it's OK to just throw it away and move onto the next one if the play isn't there.

 
Fake having Covid?

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-15-2020, 10:23 AM)impactplaya Wrote: You and I have been preaching this since the offseason.
I spent 11 years calling plays in a press box at the hs level.

1st rule of playcalling...cater your plays to the skill set
Of your talent. Better to do.5 plays great than trying to do 100 average.make the defense overthink everythink.
Keep the defense guessing. Control the middle of the field.

Defenses have the playcall figured out as soon as the lineman
Get set. ZT gets out coached every game. 
Progress to him is kicking a FG in the last 20 to avoid a shutout

If you have spent that much time coaching at any level, you know the extreme egos at hand of many coaches....even ones that don't know their butthole from a hole in the ground.  They always think they know more than the other guy, and find excuses as to why their plan doesn't work.

I was so encouraged by the variety of play calls I saw against Jax.  And how they stayed with the run...For those not paying close attention, Joe didn't go off until the SECOND HALF of that game.  But they stayed with it.  Not against the Rats....Had to outthink ourselves again and get our rookie QB killed.  I swear I would like to punch them in the throat.  

[Fullrock]

What can Joe do? Invest in some body armor?

[*jason*]

(10-14-2020, 02:02 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Joe's going to have to get rid of the ball faster, he's not at LSU any more. Andy Dalton had one of the fastest releases while he was here because of the line in front of him. Joe can scramble better than Andy and if it wasn't for that the sack total would be much higher. I don't blame Joe for trying to extend plays because he is a competitor but he needs to learn when to get rid of it and not force plays when they are not there.

This...

Maybe lobby Mr Brown for some coaching changes too.