'Bengals need to part ways with Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins now'

[samhain]

Can the team cut both of them without too much of a hit after the season? I think Dunlap might be at the end of his deal anyway. Does Geno have a lot of guaranteed money after 2020?

I don't see anyone giving a lot for them. It's going to be a matter of getting out from under the contracts once this year mercifully ends.

[fredtoast]

(10-21-2020, 02:50 PM)Fullrock Wrote:  When you're a team that largely builds through the draft, you can bet your ass it's a 3 or 4 year rebuilding plan.

When you are a team that builds through the draft you don't spend $145 million on free agents.

And you don't spend over $20 million on one-year deals for Green and Alexander.

The stadium was empty last year so the front office switched gears.  They knew they could not live with an empty stadium for 3 or 4 years.

[Fullrock]

(10-21-2020, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When you are a team that builds through the draft you don't spend $145 million on free agents.

And you don't spend over $20 million on one-year deals for Green and Alexander.

The stadium was empty last year so the front office switched gears.  They knew they could not live with an empty stadium for 3 or 4 years.

You're talking about one year where they actually went out and spent money in free agency, but we all know until they show us otherwise that was a huge exception. This is largely a team that builds through the draft, and they had a very good opportunity to trade 3 players who last year could have brought a decent return in draft picks, again in the middle of a 2-14 season, so it didn't matter one iota who was on the roster to replace them.

If the team had been on the verge of competing last year then I could see a case to keep them. They were nowhere close to competing and completely dropped the ball in getting value from teams who were competing who think they could have used a Geno or Dunlap to help them. Now they are stuck with them.

[fredtoast]

(10-21-2020, 03:16 PM)Fullrock Wrote: If the team had been on the verge of competing last year then I could see a case to keep them. They were nowhere close to competing and completely dropped the ball in getting value from teams who were competing who think they could have used a Geno or Dunlap to help them. Now they are stuck with them.

Last year it looked like they fixed the running game over the second half of the season and they were going to add 2 first round picks at QB and LT plus the return of AJ Green to help with the passing game.

The defense was a nightmare, but they added FIVE starters in free agency.

There was no reason to believe that this team could not have at least competed this year.  Atkins and Dunlap were playing well and we had no one on the roster to replace them.  It did not make any sense to create two new holes in a defense that we had just spent $100 million in free agency to fix.

[Fullrock]

(10-21-2020, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last year it looked like they fixed the running game over the second half of the season and they were going to add 2 first round picks at QB and LT plus the return of AJ Green to help with the passing game.

The defense was a nightmare, but they added FIVE starters in free agency.

There was no reason to believe that this team could not have at least competed this year.  Atkins and Dunlap were playing well and we had no one on the roster to replace them.  It did not make any sense to create two new holes in a defense that we had just spent $100 million in free agency to fix.

You're right...to a bad organization it wouldn't make sense because they have no clue how to operate effectively. AGAIN, no one knew when they were 0-6 last year before the trade deadline that they were going to go out and spend in free agency like they did, so they wouldn't have been creating two new holes on a defense they spent $100 million to fix because they hadn't even spent that money yet. I'm sure it hadn't even been discussed at that point. What's funny is you are actually sitting here trying to argue your point when CLEARLY they should have attempted to trade Geno and Dunlap who have both been non-productive this season and being outplayed by average players at best.

[fredtoast]

(10-21-2020, 03:58 PM)Fullrock Wrote:  What's funny is you are actually sitting here trying to argue your point when CLEARLY they should have attempted to trade Geno and Dunlap who have both been non-productive this season and being outplayed by average players at best.

What is funny is that you are sitting here making up shit out of thin air about them not even discussing plans for the offseason before the trade deadline last year and stating it like it is a fact.

You are delusional if you think they were setting there midseason last year looking at an empty stadium and saying "Oh I am sure the crowds will pick up over the second half of the season and we can take 3 to 4 years to re-build through the draft.  No need for us to spend any money in free agency this offseason".

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-20-2020, 03:44 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote:
Geno is just practicing effective social distancing.

It is the "opt out without the opt out" scheme.  

[Fullrock]

(10-21-2020, 04:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What is funny is that you are sitting here making up shit out of thin air about them not even discussing plans for the offseason before the trade deadline last year and stating it like it is a fact.

You are delusional if you think they were setting there midseason last year looking at an empty stadium and saying "Oh I am sure the crowds will pick up over the second half of the season and we can take 3 to 4 years to re-build through the draft.  No need for us to spend any money in free agency this offseason".

You actually think there is time to sit around and discuss specific plans for next year in the middle of a football season when you're preparing yourselves and players for your next opponent?? Hell, they didn't even know who would be available in free agency at that point.

As is typical, you're clueless about how things work. The fact you can actually sit here and say them not trading Geno and Dunlap last year when they could have likely gotten mid to higher round draft picks for them and cut big money off the salary cap is laughable given they are literally eating millions of dollars for nothing now.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-21-2020, 04:28 PM)Fullrock Wrote: You actually think there is time to sit around and discuss specific plans for next year in the middle of a football season when you're preparing yourselves and players for your next opponent?? Hell, they didn't even know who would be available in free agency at that point.

As is typical, you're clueless about how things work. The fact you can actually sit here and say them not trading Geno and Dunlap last year when they could have likely gotten mid to higher round draft picks for them and cut big money off the salary cap is laughable given they are literally eating millions of dollars for nothing now.

I honestly was for keeping both of them around in the Offseason but looking back I was wrong.

[Yojimbo]

One thing I can’t wrap my head around. These guys, Dunlap, Atkins and Green are all-time franchise greats, pro bowlers, all-pros and potential HoF and we’re not supposed to believe them or trust them that something is wrong. On the other side we have a coach(es) with absolutely nothing but losing on their resumes and somehow they carry more credibility than these vets?

[fredtoast]

(10-21-2020, 04:28 PM)Fullrock Wrote: You actually think there is time to sit around and discuss specific plans for next year in the middle of a football season when you're preparing yourselves and players for your next opponent?? Hell, they didn't even know who would be available in free agency at that point.

As is typical, you're clueless about how things work. The fact you can actually sit here and say them not trading Geno and Dunlap last year when they could have likely gotten mid to higher round draft picks for them and cut big money off the salary cap is laughable given they are literally eating millions of dollars for nothing now.

The front office obviously had plenty of time to discuss what they were going to address the teams problems in the offseason.  they saw the empty stadium and they knew they had to take drastic steps instead of taking 3 to 4 years to build through the draft.

Is it easy to say they should have traded Geno and Dunlap NOW when we see how they are playing this year?  Sure.  Anyone can be right when they have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, but the fact is that Geno went to the Pro Bowl last year, and Dunlap played great over the second half of the season.  Plus we had no one on the roster to take their places.

The fact is that you were enthusiastic about hiring Taylor while I was more apprehensive.  So it would be easy for me to say you were clueless because of how badly he has turned out.  But I don't use hindsight to act like I know everything.  And last year at this time I am pretty sure the front office had already decided that they did not have 3 to 4 years to rebuild based on the crowds they were drawing.  So there was no reason to trade Geno and Dunlap. Instead they were planning spending a bunch on free agents in order to help turn the team around quickly.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-21-2020, 05:01 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: One thing I can’t wrap my head around. These guys, Dunlap, Atkins and Green are all-time franchise greats, pro bowlers, all-pros and potential HoF and we’re not supposed to believe them or trust them that something is wrong. On the other side we have a coach(es) with absolutely nothing but losing on their resumes and somehow they carry more credibility than these vets?

Great point, I just prefer it when said players are playing well before they say stuff like this.

I think AJ and Geno are more disgruntled with themselves but the losing would get to anyone. 

Just have to put your head down and go to work to make it change so we can get back to winning.

But Dunlap was saying stuff in the Offseason I didn't care for so he just might be disgruntled period....

And Taylor needs to get his shit together so we can start winning.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-21-2020, 03:06 PM)samhain Wrote: Can the team cut both of them without too much of a hit after the season?

Here are the numbers if the cuts are made after the season:

Geno Atkins

2021 --- 14.8 mil salary --- 5.2 mil dead cap ---  9.6 mil in cap savings if cut.
2022 --- 16.0 mil salary --- 2.6 mil dead cap --- 13.4 mil in cap savings if cut.

Carlos Dunlap

2021 --- 13.5 mil salary --- 2.2 mil dead cap --- 11.3 mil in cap savings if cut.

[*jason*]

(10-21-2020, 05:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The front office obviously had plenty of time to discuss what they were going to address the teams problems in the offseason.  they saw the empty stadium and they knew they had to take drastic steps instead of taking 3 to 4 years to build through the draft.

Is it easy to say they should have traded Geno and Dunlap NOW when we see how they are playing this year?  Sure.  Anyone can be right when they have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, but the fact is that Geno went to the Pro Bowl last year, and Dunlap played great over the second half of the season.  Plus we had no one on the roster to take their places.

The fact is that you were enthusiastic about hiring Taylor while I was more apprehensive.  So it would be easy for me to say you were clueless because of how badly he has turned out.  But I don't use hindsight to act like I know everything.  And last year at this time I am pretty sure the front office had already decided that they did not have 3 to 4 years to rebuild based on the crowds they were drawing.  So there was no reason to trade Geno and Dunlap. Instead they were planning spending a bunch on free agents in order to help turn the team around quickly.

Dunlap was playing like poo this time last year too... Just like you've pointed out. Then he went off. For years I've been hearing Gio isn't the same after the hit. Turns out he hasn't been utilized right... I don't trust this staff's ability or judgement. So we cut Geno and Carlos because they forgot how to play football. That leaves us needing a DE, DT, and at least 4 O Linemen, maybe a WR... Burrow's rookie contract is basically wasted by the time we sort that all out.

[BengalFanInNJ]

Nobody is going to trade for either of these guys. Cutting them will accomplish what? Free up space? They can do that after the season. Cutting them now is silly.

[Sled21]

(10-21-2020, 05:01 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: One thing I can’t wrap my head around. These guys, Dunlap, Atkins and Green are all-time franchise greats, pro bowlers, all-pros and potential HoF and we’re not supposed to believe them or trust them that something is wrong. On the other side we have a coach(es) with absolutely nothing but losing on their resumes and somehow they carry more credibility than these vets?

You might have a point, IF we hadn't seen the level of play coming out of them so far this season. This limited playing time is not something Taylor pulled out of his butt at the beginning of the season, it is a reaction to the lack of production from any of them. The coaches basically had 2 choices, let the veterans keep their starting positions and accept the lack of effort, or do something to try to correct it. If you are for option one, and you complained about Marvin playing vets no matter what, then you (not you specifically, but in general) are a hypocrite.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(10-20-2020, 04:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He's right....He is on Mo's show right now and he had a good example:

Which worked better last year:

Parting ways with Preston Brown or sticking with a malcontent in Cordy Glenn? It isn't even close. Time to move on. Thanks for the memories. There were as many good memories as bad ones, and they were a big part in those good memories.

Whilst I'm in favor of trading anyone who isn't in the plans for the following season, I'm not sure Cordy Glenn is quite the slam dunk example Paul Downer Jr thinks it is. When he eventually returned to the starting line-up Glenn was an upgrade (not that that is saying much), the Bengals picked up their first win of the year almost immediately and the O-line was generally considered to have played better in the second half with Glenn than the first half without him. I'm not sure cutting him would have saved any money either as aren't veteran's contracts guaranteed if they are on the roster week 1? If anything it would have cost extra as we would have had to find someone else to replace his spot on the roster.

(10-20-2020, 04:27 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I never saw this much player dissension in all of Marvin Lewis years combined

What veterans were benched under Marv?

(10-20-2020, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson is the only player on the team with more sacks and QB hits than Dunlap.

How you going to blame the lack of pass rush on him.

How does that compare to pass rush opportunities?

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-22-2020, 10:12 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I'm not sure cutting him would have saved any money either as aren't veteran's contracts guaranteed if they are on the roster week 1?

No.  Not unless they're franchise tagged, then it becomes a fully guaranteed amount.

[fredtoast]

(10-22-2020, 10:12 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: What veterans were benched under Marv?

2006 starting DE Bryan Robinson got benched in 2007 for Robert Geathers.  Chris Perry got benched for Cedric Benson in 2008.  Deltha O'Neal got benched midseason for Leon Hall his rookies season.  But generally players respected Marvin enough to not give up on him.  

All the current players have seen from Zac are moves like benching Dalton for Finley.  It makes him look clueless at evaluating talent.

[fredtoast]

(10-21-2020, 08:56 PM)jason Wrote: Dunlap was playing like poo this time last year too... Just like you've pointed out. Then he went off.

He was recovering from an injury.  Just like Geno is this year.  The people who wrote Dunlap off as washed up this time last year were proven wrong when he played so well over the second half of the season.