Carlos back to whining

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-24-2020, 02:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: It wasn't the depth chart, it was the specific rotation for that game. 

You guys act like these game plan rotations are posted all the time. 

And heck yea they will change knowing Hunt and Bledsoe will be in more than Dunlap. Who wouldn't? Probably go pass heavy now. These are professionals who know how to use any info they may get from an opponent. Anything.

If we can spot from the planned game rotation  they are going with a run heavy defense, then surely Cleveland can.

It's just the depth chart. It means nothing as far as game plan goes. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-24-2020, 02:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: It wasn't the depth chart, it was the specific rotation for that game. 

You guys act like these game plan rotations are posted all the time. 

And heck yea they will change knowing Hunt and Bledsoe will be in more than Dunlap. Who wouldn't? Probably go pass heavy now. These are professionals who know how to use any info they may get from an opponent. Anything.

If we can spot from the planned game rotation  they are going with a run heavy defense, then surely Cleveland can.

You think an NFL team is going to change an entire game plan because they saw a post where a player showed numbers drawn on a white board?

Take a second to think about that, then answer the question. 

[jfkbengals]

NFL.com says we have been in trade talks about Carlos, and he might be inactive today as a result...


https://www.nfl.com/news/trade-deadline-quinnen-williams-carlos-dunlap-golden-tate

[J24]

He is active today. Guys he isn't getting traded and his latest actions probably killed any chance of getting anything worthwhile.

[THE Bigzoman]

(10-25-2020, 11:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The thing is that none of have any way of knowing.  We hear all the time how a playing lining up "out of position" can effect the defense.  So what if Lou's scheme has Dunlap lining up in the wrong place?  What if the run fit assignments in Lou's scheme are off?  

Coaching schemes makes a HUGE difference in the effectiveness of a defense.  Most of the time fans can not even see subtle adjustments to individual player assignments, but the best coaches use the superior designs and strategy to get the best production form their players.  

With the offense it is easier to see the changes in line splits, WR alignment, line blocking schemes, pass route combinations, etc., but defensive coaches also adjust their schemes and assignments from week to week.  Ever notice how some teams seem to get pressure almost every time they blitz while other teams will blitz repeatedly but it always gets picked up?

So I don't think we can just automatically blame the lack of production all on Dunlap.  To me the whole defense seems to be struggling.

But the defense Hasn’t struggled. They’ve played well enough to win 4 of the 6 games we’ve played, and some individuals have shined very bright. I can think of several times where players were put in a spot to make a play but they simply failed to capitalize.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(10-24-2020, 11:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't get this.  Coaches don't tackle.  Coaches don't rush the passer.  He is being outplayed by everyone on the roster at DE and we are calling the coaches clueless for playing guys that are getting better results?  

Is it not the coaches who are supposed to put the players in a position to succeed? I will take the the side of all players over these garbage coaches after last weeks disaster. Time to move on from all the coaches but Simmons.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(10-25-2020, 12:09 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: But the defense Hasn’t struggled. They’ve played well enough to win 4 of the 6 games we’ve played, and some individuals have shined very bright. I can think of several times where players were put in a spot to make a play but they simply failed to capitalize.

What games are you watching? This defense has folded more times than not when we needed a stop.

[*bfine32*]

(10-25-2020, 11:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: QB hits and PDs are not subjective.

I do agree that many stats are subjective.  But it would be pretty dull around here if we could not talk about "drops", "sacks allowed", "broken/missed tackles", etc.

And people that know about football know that pressure on a QB makes a difference even if he isn't sacked.  We can argue about how to measure that pressure, but it is ridiculous to say that pressure does not matter unless it results in a sack.

You mean people like you Knute?

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-25-2020, 12:28 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: Is it not the coaches who are supposed to put the players in a position to succeed? I will take the the side of all players over these garbage coaches after last weeks disaster. Time to move on from all the coaches but Simmons.

I struggle with the "Is the coach responsible to MOTIVATE" his players argument.  On one side, I see them as professionals that should be motivated as paid professionals to give 100% of their effort.  On the other side, I see teams that "take on the personality of their coach".  Every time I saw a Marvin Lewis team in the playoffs, it looked like they were scared, tentative, and overall uninterested.  And that was some of the biggest names on the team.  

As far as being in a position to succeed, how are guys like Bates and others playing extremely well?  How is it that a guy like Burrow with a horrible line and minimal weaponry excels?  The answer I would offer is the same one that Burrow provides:  preparation.  Who is studying extra game film?  Who came in with great conditioning and strength?  I give a bit of a pass to some of the newer pieces to figure out the defense, but I have always said that coaches don't block and tackle and it is very apparent when you isolate certain players that they are simply not giving a good effort and could seemingly care less about winning, as they are just drawing a paycheck.  

[reuben.ahmed]

(10-25-2020, 12:32 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: What games are you watching? This defense has folded more times than not when we needed a stop.

"Bend, but not break. I SAID, BEND!!! WHY BREAKING????" -- Defensive coaches

[reuben.ahmed]

(10-25-2020, 12:45 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I struggle with the "Is the coach responsible to MOTIVATE" his players argument.  On one side, I see them as professionals that should be motivated as paid professionals to give 100% of their effort.  On the other side, I see teams that "take on the personality of their coach".  Every time I saw a Marvin Lewis team in the playoffs, it looked like they were scared, tentative, and overall uninterested.  And that was some of the biggest names on the team.  

Doc Rivers said there is no motivational speech he can give his team, it's all smoke and mirrors and for movies. He had a compelling argument, but see where it landed him shortly thereafter. His team also performed incredibly poorly after being up 21 in several games and up 3-1 in the series. He let a 20 point lead dissipate without calling a timeout, IIRC they were losing by 7 points before he actually called a timeout.

I'm thinking very few players are like Jordan and probably Burrow, who are self-motivated by something other than money. How many players on our team are just happy they're being paid and aren't affected that much by us losing?

Doc's argument is it doesn't last very long, about 1 minute or less. He forgot that it needs to be done sometimes then, apparently trying to teach his team a lesson to turn games around with him, lol - one of his sole duties.

Our team still looks like the team of old, a team that doesn't adjust fast enough or at all and relies on talent. We should be adjusting drive to drive. Mixon up the middle isn't working, let's do it 15 more times.

I said it with marvin and with andy, how many teams out there want this "player" or "coach" on their team in the same position? If it's nobody, why are they on our team, lol. Andy may struggle hard in DAL, but he's not even in the same position, he's not a starter. Is Zac a HC on another team? Maybe, because he still hasn't racked enough horrible history to write him off to some, and some team will say "he was in cincy" as their excuse to try. I wonder if we can say if more than half the other teams want this player, he's someone we should try hard to keep.

We'll look back at this year and say we only lost X games by Y points, that's the HC's fault, isn't it? We have to win close games not lose them and it doesn't take much. If we lose every close game, or the majority of them, does it mean anything at all towards his job performance? lol.

Leader takes the fall sometimes.

[Yojimbo]

(10-25-2020, 12:09 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: But the defense Hasn’t struggled. They’ve played well enough to win 4 of the 6 games we’ve played, and some individuals have shined very bright. I can think of several times where players were put in a spot to make a play but they simply failed to capitalize.

Uh, they have struggled. They are in the bottom tier of the league in stopping the run, total yardage and pass rush. They have done a decent job in scoring at 17th, but even that is still bottom half of the league.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-25-2020, 10:58 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I have been very clear my opinions on Taylor, and the other coaches. 

If you believe there is no effort by the coaching staff and everything they are doing is wrong, then you need to explain the play of Bates, Wilson, ADG, Burrow, Higgins, J. Williams, and perhaps Carl Lawson.  

I see a dramatic difference in effort and results between those players and the ones complaining about playing time.  If I have one tremendous concern for the coaching staff is are they good "teachers" of what they want from the players.  When I see some of the players taking the coaching and performing and others showing a significant lack of effort (and I include Green in this until Indy), I will take those players to task.  Nothing,  not one damn thing is more frustrating to me than a lack of effort.  

You just listed 1 guy who's rated great (overall, but garbage against the run), 4 mediocre starters, and 2 guys struggling hard.... on a team of 53 people.

Wilson: 40.0
ADG: 45.6 (60th ranked LB)
Lawson: 68.5 (30th ranked ED)
Higgins: 70.2 (50th ranked WR)
Williams: 74.3 (27th ranked T)
Burrow: 74.9 (17th ranked QB)
Bates: 90.0 (1st ranked S, but 54.0 grade/61st ranked S against the run)

There's very few players that are doing particularly well on the Bengals this year. Just like last year. It's just that everyone else is so bad that the mediocre starters look comparatively great.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-25-2020, 01:05 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Doc Rivers said there is no motivational speech he can give his team, it's all smoke and mirrors and for movies. He had a compelling argument, but see where it landed him shortly thereafter. His team also performed incredibly poorly after being up 21 in several games and up 3-1 in the series. He let a 20 point lead dissipate without calling a timeout, IIRC they were losing by 7 points before he actually called a timeout.

I'm thinking very few players are like Jordan and probably Burrow, who are self-motivated by something other than money. How many players on our team are just happy they're being paid and aren't affected that much by us losing?

Doc's argument is it doesn't last very long, about 1 minute or less. He forgot that it needs to be done sometimes then, apparently trying to teach his team a lesson to turn games around with him, lol - one of his sole duties.

Our team still looks like the team of old, a team that doesn't adjust fast enough or at all and relies on talent. We should be adjusting drive to drive. Mixon up the middle isn't working, let's do it 15 more times.

I said it with marvin and with andy, how many teams out there want this "player" or "coach" on their team in the same position? If it's nobody, why are they on our team, lol. Andy may struggle hard in DAL, but he's not even in the same position, he's not a starter. Is Zac a HC on another team? Maybe, because he still hasn't racked enough horrible history to write him off to some, and some team will say "he was in cincy" as their excuse to try. I wonder if we can say if more than half the other teams want this player, he's someone we should try hard to keep.

We'll look back at this year and say we only lost X games by Y points, that's the HC's fault, isn't it? We have to win close games not lose them and it doesn't take much. If we lose every close game, or the majority of them, does it mean anything at all towards his job performance? lol.

Leader takes the fall sometimes.

I guess the simplest answer I can come up with is to question is the coach putting them in a place to win if they execute?  The answer is yes on offense and I don't know on defense.  

[higgy100]

(10-25-2020, 01:05 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Doc Rivers said there is no motivational speech he can give his team, it's all smoke and mirrors and for movies. He had a compelling argument, but see where it landed him shortly thereafter. His team also performed incredibly poorly after being up 21 in several games and up 3-1 in the series. He let a 20 point lead dissipate without calling a timeout, IIRC they were losing by 7 points before he actually called a timeout.

I'm thinking very few players are like Jordan and probably Burrow, who are self-motivated by something other than money. How many players on our team are just happy they're being paid and aren't affected that much by us losing?

Doc's argument is it doesn't last very long, about 1 minute or less. He forgot that it needs to be done sometimes then, apparently trying to teach his team a lesson to turn games around with him, lol - one of his sole duties.

Our team still looks like the team of old, a team that doesn't adjust fast enough or at all and relies on talent. We should be adjusting drive to drive. Mixon up the middle isn't working, let's do it 15 more times.

I said it with marvin and with andy, how many teams out there want this "player" or "coach" on their team in the same position? If it's nobody, why are they on our team, lol. Andy may struggle hard in DAL, but he's not even in the same position, he's not a starter. Is Zac a HC on another team? Maybe, because he still hasn't racked enough horrible history to write him off to some, and some team will say "he was in cincy" as their excuse to try. I wonder if we can say if more than half the other teams want this player, he's someone we should try hard to keep.

We'll look back at this year and say we only lost X games by Y points, that's the HC's fault, isn't it? We have to win close games not lose them and it doesn't take much. If we lose every close game, or the majority of them, does it mean anything at all towards his job performance? lol.

Leader takes the fall sometimes.

I'll agree with you except your last paragraph. It DOES take alot to win close games. It's all about buying in, being on the same page and a culture. That ain't easy to do and certainly not with 53 guys with different personalities, motivations, etc. etc. People think it's just this play/ that play but it's not. The worst "feel good" stats in all of sports are baseball teams who "just lose by a run" or football teams that lose 6-7 games a year "by less than that 6 points". The worst teams and organizations in all of sports can keep games close. The Bengals of the 90's had so many leads on good teams with 6-7 minutes to go in a game and then they would kill themselves with a bad punt, penalties, a TO and then it's the proverbial "here we go again".

What is the C or G thinking about on a crucial 2nd and 3 only to flinch? What is the 3rd WR on the field doing and why is he late getting a helmet on a defender when they're lined up in a bunch formation or on a slip screen? Why is the nickel back late getting to his spot before the snap? Why is the FS and CB jawing at each other after a RB catches a ball in the flat that goes for 20 yards.

Is it teaching, is it coaching, is it drafting players with low IQ's or low football IQ's, is it drafting platers who have never played in big games, drafting players with red flags, etc.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-24-2020, 11:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fans don't like it because they can't get out the way players can.

Dillon didn't care what the fans thought.

Palmer didn't care.

Ocho didn't care.

Dunlap doesn't care.

All people do here is ***** and cry about the coaching and front office.  But then when a player wants out they turn on him.

I guarantee that if any of you guys were in a contract at a horrible job with an incompetent boss who you did not think was treating you fairly you would do what you had to do to get out.  You are lying if you say otherwise.

And for all of you who think Dunlap now sucks why do you care if he wants out?  If he is really so wrong then he won't damage the locker room in any way.  Why would it effect any of the other players if they all knew he was wrong?

The fact is that you really know that Dunlap has a legit beef.  That is the only reason he would be able to do any harm to the "culture" Zac is building around here.  If Zac and/or Lou weren't screwing anything up then none of the other players would pay any attention to Carlos' "whining".

Wrong.  It isn't that Dunlap wants out.  It is the fact that he is being VERY well compensated for a very hot and cold performance on the field and he has chosen to show up with poor strength and conditioning, lose playing time to a younger, hungrier Carl Lawson, and publicly piss and moan about how the coaches have done him wrong.

It isn't necessarily what he wants but how he has gone about accomplishing it that has been very unprofessional and immature.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-25-2020, 01:43 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You just listed 1 guy who's rated great (overall, but garbage against the run), 4 mediocre starters, and 2 guys struggling hard.... on a team of 53 people.

Wilson: 40.0
ADG: 45.6 (60th ranked LB)
Lawson: 68.5 (30th ranked ED)
Higgins: 70.2 (50th ranked WR)
Williams: 74.3 (27th ranked T)
Burrow: 74.9 (17th ranked QB)
Bates: 90.0 (1st ranked S, but 54.0 grade/61st ranked S against the run)

There's very few players that are doing particularly well on the Bengals this year. Just like last year. It's just that everyone else is so bad that the mediocre starters look comparatively great.

LB ratings on PFF are very difficult, as PFF doesn't take in to account (they don't know) the assignment of the player.  I think it was Van Noy from the Pats that would say they always scored him low because of that but they were a perennial #1 defense and he was a big part of it.  Our young LBs are learning on the job with no OTAs or preseason games.  But, they are learning.  We are seeing more and more out of Wilson and I really like what we are seeing.  

If you are interpreting the play of Higgins and Burrow as mediocre, there is not a lot I will be able to do to change your mind here.

As far as the rest of the team, don't forget that I was able to list 7 starters out of 22 because the likes of Waynes, WJIII, Reader, Mixon, Alexander, Atkins, XSF, Hubbard, and Tate have all dealt with injuries.  That is 9 more players.  

The likes of Bell, Phillips, and a few others have been inconsistent but have at least flashed some ability as they got used to the defense....Phillips having been moved around to different positions.  

I know this is all going to sound like a ton of excuses, but I see the likes of Atkins and Dunlap having next to no impact on the team and they were really counted on.  I won't go in to the antics, but those are two really important pieces coming in to the season that have had virtually no impact.  

What I do like is that the young players like Wilson, ADG, Kareem, and Pratt are playing a lot on defense and if they can ever generate some semblance of a pass rush, then the defense might play pretty well.  

Momentary sidebar:  we all see the "selective officiating", where most of the time now they are just "letting them play" and the holding that offensive lines are getting away with is ridiculous.  There is only one way to combat that and it has to deal with hand work.  I have always thought that our defensive linemen need to improve at chopping with their hands.

Bottom line:  are we seeing potential hope for the defense.  I am.  Actually, I am.  I see a huge need for pass rush since Dunlap and Atkins simply aren't contributing.  Lawson has been solid, but I don't know if I am prepared to pay him long term given his injury history.  We will see how he finishes the season, but it is clear that serious resources need to be utilized at DT and DE before next season.  I know many will say we don't have the cap space, but I am referring more to the draft than to the FA.  If they can't land a sure-fire OT like Sewell, I hope there is an axe-murderer of a DE available when they pick.