Zak needs 1 more year to change culture

[impactplaya]

Dont be totally fooled by the improvement of the offense
This year. The offense is improved to a point cause
Of the upgrade at QB. Not so much ZT.

This offense can put up points on average to below defenses
Like the Titans Jags Browns. But it struggles vs elite units
Like the Ravens and Steelers.

I rarely agree with Fred on anything but on this
I do. Im not seeing the improvement.
Still getting blown out of the Ravens and Steelers
And still.losing close ball.games.
Until the Bengals can reverse those 2-those narratives
There is no improvement to be seen.

It's time to end the incompetent failure ZT is

[wildcatnku24]

(11-16-2020, 01:14 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, he wasn't here in 2018. Fact of the matter is, Taylor's first year our offense was horrible and we've clearly shown improvement in his 2nd year. Whether or not that's enough improvement is certainly debatable, but you can't say he hasn't improved in his 2nd season. 

Exactly.  But most importantly, if we're scoring 30 points a game roughly, wouldn't that tell you the problem is defense?  Well, we dropped millions on defense and only one seems to still be healthy since McKenzie went down yesterday.  Talk about bad luck.

[fredtoast]

(11-16-2020, 01:16 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote:  if we're scoring 30 points a game roughly, 

We are not scoring anywhere CLOSE TO 30 points a game.  We are averaging 22.7.  That is 22nd in the league.

That is not good at all.  Our offense is BAD

Since last year uru offense has added the first O-lineman drafted in 2019, the first overall pick in 2020, an $18 million WR, a new free agent starter at RT, and an exceptional second round pick at WR.

And we are still just 22nd in scoring offense.

[wildcatnku24]

(11-16-2020, 01:15 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Dont be totally fooled by the improvement of the offense
This year. The offense is improved to a point cause
Of the upgrade at QB. Not so much ZT.

This offense can put up points on average to below defenses
Like the Titans Jags Browns. But it struggles vs elite units
Like the Ravens and Steelers.

I rarely agree with Fred on anything but on this
I do. Im not seeing the improvement.
Still getting blown out of the Ravens and Steelers
And still.losing close ball.games.
Until the Bengals can reverse those 2-those narratives
There is no improvement to be seen.

It's time to end the incompetent failure ZT is

This seems to me like hate for hate's sake, which makes sense after yesterday's showing.  But the truth is, yesterday was mostly Special Teams/Burrow having an off day.  But you can't give QB all credit, when Taylor drafted him.  Taylor is smart enough to give Burrow open dialogue and free reign (from the sounds of it) over the playbook.  

People who think that a coach determines a players execution when on the field have never played a down of football IRL.  And honestly, there's no shame in that.  You're on a message board for fans, and you're clearly a fan given that you're upset they lost.  I am too! 

Call whatever play you want, if the QB can't throw it right it doesn't matter.  If our fifth string corner doesn't turn his head EVER (gosh that was irritating) , that doesn't mean Lou hasn't given him sh1t for it over and over.  That's why the CB is so low on depth chart.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-16-2020, 12:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Kyle Shanahan had it figure out his FIRST season.  He was 5-0 as soon as he got a decent QB (Garrapolo).  Only reason he had a bad second season was that he lost Jimmy G and went 3-10 with Nick Mullins and C.J. Breathard starting in his place.  The defense improved from 24th to 13th, but the offense struggled without Garrapolo.

(11-16-2020, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We were 17th in scoring offense in 2018 the year before Taylor took over.

In his two seasons we are 30th and 22nd.

So the offense has got better, and the defense still sucks. I am not defending ZT, but there has been improvements from last year. Last year was absolutely abysmal, this year is still really bad but this team is certainly better than last year. If we're going with "why things went wrong", especially on defense, our best players on defense (Geno, Dunlap) and best player on the team (AJ) has fallen completely off a cliff. 

I want to re-iterate that I personally think Zach should be canned if he cannot get to at least 5 wins. At least. But just stating there has been improvement, just not enough for me to feel like he's the guy to lead us to the promise land.

[wildcatnku24]

(11-16-2020, 01:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We are not scoring anywhere CLOSE TO 30 points a game.  We are averaging 22.7.  That is 22nd in the league.

That is not good at all.  Our offense is BAD

Since last year uru offense has added the first O-lineman drafted in 2019, the first overall pick in 2020, an $18 million WR, a new free agent starter at RT, and an exceptional second round pick at WR.

And we are still just 22nd in scoring offense.

A couple blowouts and the first game of the season have affected that average.  I imagine you know it as well as I do.  I also am willing to bet you understand what I'm saying.

Our $18M WR isn't playing for sh1t.  I don't even think defenses are showing that respect anymore.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-16-2020, 10:50 AM)jj22 Wrote: They did their rebuild right. 

There would be no Dunlaps/Geno's/Greens/WJIII's (an asset we could have got something good for), on the roster bringing that "losing culture" to the new era. Wouldn't have been Dalton last year, 

I'm convinced everyone on this board can run the Bengals better, and that is pretty sad.


I will say the drafts have been good, but not enough when you build through the draft yet can't stockpile picks. 

Even with Burrow, we have no shot in this division and will likely never win division games (outside of the Browns if we are lucky). Burrow's career is done. It's pretty sad, but we at least know it early. Welcome to the pre Marvin dark era. It'll be decades before we get out of this one.

Why do people always fly into such hysterics after a bad loss to Pittsburgh? Seriously, his career is done? 9 games into a mostly excellent rookie season? Do you at all think about what you’re typing before you hit post? FFS

[BengalChris]

(11-16-2020, 12:25 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: I know emotions run high during Steelers week but we will never be any good with a losing culture.
It is not easy to change players who prefer the previous regime over the current regime.

Zak used the first year to analyze the personnel. The second year was used to make the first round of changes.
Geno, Ross, Dunlap, Jackson III and AJ will not be around next year. That saves at least over 50 mil in contracts.
They will use that money to sign key free agents like a OG, OT, DE's or CB's.

I see positive things happening for this team.

Next year we will have Reader, Waynes, Uzomah back from injuries.
I think Adenji and Spain played well at Tackles today.
We could have Jonah Williams to RT and have Adenji stay at LT with Spain RG, Jordan LG Hopkins C.
If we get a high draft pick I would select Micah Parsons to play M-LB.

If next year at the break we do not see a big improvement than a coaching change may be needed.

What's this "culture" you are talking about? "Acceptance of losing while thinking good thoughts about yourself" is not a culture worth waiting for. The veteran player who are use to winning are leaving or wanting out. Who could blame them? 4 wins in 25 games is horrifically bad, especially when starting with a team that was much better than that.

There've been no accomplishments by Taylor and his pals. Losing is not an accomplishment. Having the worst record in Bengals history is not an accomplishment. Some might count sucking so bad too get the #1 pick as an accomplishment, but not people who expect to win.

Dave Shula looks like a genius compared to this Taylor fellow.

 

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

It takes a lot of guts to defend ZT on this board. Internet message boards are notoriously populated by the angriest fans. I give Superbowlbound credit just for taking that position publicly.

I didn't like the ZT hire in the first place, but a year and a half in here's what I see as the three things holding us back the most, in this order:

1. The majority of our cap room going to unproductive players - AJ, Geno, until recently Dunlap.

2. Because we couldn't hire ZT until after the Super Bowl we had last dibs on assistants. Anarumo holds us back more than ZT. This can change, but I worry that ZT is too nice of a guy to change it.

3. ZT's inexperience. He's made a lot of terrible decisions, but he's a self-reflective guy who can grow as a head coach. I'm not defending him, I'm just allowing for the possibility of growth. If we're worried about the window of Burrow's rookie contract, well then a new HC is going to mean new schemes and bringing in "his guys" all over again. Two steps back to take three steps forward, and by then Burrow is making $40 million a year. I get it, not running the ball more yesterday was dumb, the 3rd and 1 give to Perine at Indy was nuttier than hell, but at this point the question is whether ZT will learn from it.

It must makes more sense to me to fix #1 and #2 before canning ZT. I wanted Bienemy too but I also understand that championship teams are built over time. I don't care what the Dolphins are doing because they don't have 1 and 2 holding them back.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-16-2020, 12:27 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Nah I’ve seen enough. He made too big a leap from position coach to HC. Should have been a OC somewhere first.

We can’t waste Burrow’s rookie contract waiting on him to learn on the job.

100% agree

But I highly doubt MB will fire him unless we lose out.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-16-2020, 01:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 2018 we did not have a 29 year old AJ Green either. How much did that hurt the 2018 team? He did not play 1 game.

There you go spreading “misinformation” again. AJ played 9 games in 2018.

[Luvnit2]

(11-16-2020, 01:14 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, he wasn't here in 2018. Fact of the matter is, Taylor's first year our offense was horrible and we've clearly shown improvement in his 2nd year. Whether or not that's enough improvement is certainly debatable, but you can't say he hasn't improved in his 2nd season. 

In business I always tell people coming off a bad year, it your improvement basis is based on prior your worst in the industry, not saying much to show a little improvement.

That is the Bengals, 2019 offense was horrible so of course it is easy to show improvement. But the point of comparing to 2018, that was Bengals former coaching staff who is no longer here fired due to mediocre performance, yet ZT results for both offense and defense are worse than the HC no longer here.

That is not a good look for ZT, neither is 4 wins and 20 losses in less than 2 years. People trashed ML, but he had a winning record coaching the worst NFL franchise.  I am not saying it was not time for change, but the right person for the change, looks like they failed doing so as of now and failed miserably.

[wildcatnku24]

(11-16-2020, 01:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Why do people always fly into such hysterics after a bad loss to Pittsburgh? Seriously, his career is done? 9 games into a mostly excellent rookie season? Do you at all think about what you’re typing before you hit post? FFS

This.  
But also, I can't be alone in thinking that this year has felt different.  I see better than I hear, and I have seen some really good football by our Bengals this year.  Dare say, I've had fun watching!  That's for quite the opposite reason than Zac Taylor being a terrible coach and this team not caring or making effforts to put a winning team on the field.  You can see the players giving it their all (minus a Marvin-era vet or two).  

Guys, we need to ride this year out remembering that ZT wasn't gonna take the crap team Marvin left him with and take them to the SB within a year or two.  This will take time, but you're seeing a better product this year than last year.  And it's clear that coaching is doing good, our O-line is truly playing good "next man up" football, and that's coaching, keeping them ready.  Our draft class this year has also been excelllent!  That's coaching.  

We have good coaching!  I won't argue heavily  for Lou, but even he got screwed this year due to injuries.

[Luvnit2]

(11-16-2020, 01:34 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: This.  
But also, I can't be alone in thinking that this year has felt different.  I see better than I hear, and I have seen some really good football by our Bengals this year.  Dare say, I've had fun watching!  That's for quite the opposite reason than Zac Taylor being a terrible coach and this team not caring or making effforts to put a winning team on the field.  You can see the players giving it their all (minus a Marvin-era vet or two).  

Guys, we need to ride this year out remembering that ZT wasn't gonna take the crap team Marvin left him with and take them to the SB within a year or two.  This will take time, but you're seeing a better product this year than last year.  And it's clear that coaching is doing good, our O-line is truly playing good "next man up" football, and that's coaching, keeping them ready.  Our draft class this year has also been excelllent!  That's coaching.  

We have good coaching!  I won't argue heavily  for Lou, but even he got screwed this year due to injuries.

Crap team ML left them had a ton of cap space and won 6 games. 9 games into season two ZT has won exactly 4 games and lost 20, yet you wanna trash ML?????????????

[wildcatnku24]

(11-16-2020, 01:37 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Crap team ML left them had a ton of cap space and won 6 games. 9 games into season two ZT has won exactly 4 games and lost 20, yet you wanna trash ML?????????????

oh no, ML was fantastic for a lot of years here, changed a lot of good things.  But that team from his last year was a dud.  That's all I meant by that.  Appreciate you calling me out on it, as I'd prefer that message be clear.  I was a ML defender even past his expiration date.

[Luvnit2]

(11-16-2020, 01:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: There you go spreading “misinformation” again. AJ played 9 games in 2018.

My bad, you are correct it was 2019 he did not play any games.

TY, see how easy it is to admit an error 

[jj22]

(11-16-2020, 01:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Why do people always fly into such hysterics after a bad loss to Pittsburgh? Seriously, his career is done? 9 games into a mostly excellent rookie season? Do you at all think about what you’re typing before you hit post? FFS

We aren't beating Baltimore or Pittsburg without Marvin and Flacco being around (we could never beat Pittsburg anyway). Cleveland isn't a given anymore, in fact it's safe to say with their record over us the last 3 years, it hasn't been much of a "rivalry"...

Without winning games in the North, there's not much success to be had in the basement of the division. 

Do you see this changing in the next decade? Remember, we couldn't beat Pittsburg with their backup qb's starting. Lamar will be around for the next decade. When do you see this rise coming? 

I don't see it. It's looking like the pre Marvin dark era is upon us. 

[MickMack]

(11-16-2020, 01:34 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: This.  
But also, I can't be alone in thinking that this year has felt different.  I see better than I hear, and I have seen some really good football by our Bengals this year.  Dare say, I've had fun watching!  That's for quite the opposite reason than Zac Taylor being a terrible coach and this team not caring or making effforts to put a winning team on the field.  You can see the players giving it their all (minus a Marvin-era vet or two).  

Guys, we need to ride this year out remembering that ZT wasn't gonna take the crap team Marvin left him with and take them to the SB within a year or two.  This will take time, but you're seeing a better product this year than last year.  And it's clear that coaching is doing good, our O-line is truly playing good "next man up" football, and that's coaching, keeping them ready.  Our draft class this year has also been excelllent!  That's coaching.  

We have good coaching!  I won't argue heavily  for Lou, but even he got screwed this year due to injuries.

Stop with this garbage.  Just stop.  Absolutely no one - not a single person on the planet - has ever said ZT needs to take this team to the Super Bowl within a year or two.  ZT is competing for the worst winning percentage of any coach in the NFL ever.  And you're still not willing to take him to task for it.  That's why things don't change here - Mike Brown keeps selling a crap burger of a product and fans like you keep slurping it up.

[impactplaya]

(11-16-2020, 01:25 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: This seems to me like hate for hate's sake, which makes sense after yesterday's showing.  But the truth is, yesterday was mostly Special Teams/Burrow having an off day.  But you can't give QB all credit, when Taylor drafted him.  Taylor is smart enough to give Burrow open dialogue and free reign (from the sounds of it) over the playbook.  

People who think that a coach determines a players execution when on the field have never played a down of football IRL.  And honestly, there's no shame in that.  You're on a message board for fans, and you're clearly a fan given that you're upset they lost.  I am too! 

Call whatever play you want, if the QB can't throw it right it doesn't matter.  If our fifth string corner doesn't turn his head EVER (gosh that was irritating) , that doesn't mean Lou hasn't given him sh1t for it over and over.  That's why the CB is so low on depth chart.

Ive been involved in football since age of 8 either player as coach but on to my point.
ZT had a off day coaching yesterday 

He didnt attack the weakness of the Steelers D.
He bothered to watch film on the Cowboys game
Robert Spillane was playing MLB not Devin Bush

ZT failed to lean on the run game 
Perrine and Bernard had running lanes
How many pre snap motions did dufuss Zac Taylor 
Execute yesterday....how many counters runs did.you see.

Did you see a TE middle screen....I sure didnt.
Did you see anything ZT drew up that would confuse
The Steelers defense ??
Did you see any jet sweeps called up.
Heck I.didnt even see a unbalanced oline which still 
Works in this age of football.

Did you see any see no huddle...nope I didnt.
The Steelers defense had ZT figure out at half time.

[Big Boss]

His culture is poor technique. His culture is the inability to finish. His culture is losing.

Four wins or less this year and show him the door.