Drew Sample is a Bum

[GreenCornBengal]

(12-01-2020, 07:54 PM)kalibengal Wrote: switching gears back to Hubbard....The guy is one of those try hard, good character dudes that can be effective if he has real talent around him...which unfortunately for him does not exist on this team. If we can get some guys back like Reader, Waynes and add some real talent on the Dline, Edge, LB in next yrs draft and FA market, I think Hubbard will do what he did his 1st 2 yrs...other then that dare I say.....hes a "bum" too?   I really do not notice him out there. 

Hubbard makes his money as a #2 or #3 threat. When he was at Ohio state and in his first year here he wasn’t a focus because of some talent around him. Without that talent around him his effectiveness gets washed out.

He’s kinda the Mo Sanu of the defense meaning he needs an AJ or Julio to take the double team.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-01-2020, 07:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I wonder if the Lions fans are outraged that TJ Hockenson isn't eclipsing Travis Kelce type numbers yet, seeing they spent the #8 pick on him in 2019?

TJ Hockenson is projected to finish the season with 771 yards receiving with 8 TD's, and he's averaging 11.8 a catch, which is a very healthy average for a TE.

---He's 3rd in the league in receiving yards among tight ends.

---He's 5th in the league in TD's among TE's.

---He has the 4th longest play from scrimmage for a tight end at 51 yards

---He's produced all of the above depsite ranking 17th in snap count.

---He's produced all of the above despite playing for the a completely average 14th best pass offense.

---He has zero fumbles

I really don't understand your point here.  Should they be?  Is expecting TJ Hockenson to play like Travis Kelce the equivalent to my position that 2 catches and 22 yards a game from Sample is garbage?

Not following...

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2020, 08:26 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: TJ Hockenson is projected to finish the season with 771 yards receiving with 8 TD's, and he's averaging 11.8 a catch, which is a very healthy average for a TE.

---He's 3rd in the league in receiving yards among tight ends.

---He's 5th in the league in TD's among TE's.

---He has the 4th longest play from scrimmage for a tight end at 51 yards

---He's produced all of the above depsite ranking 17th in snap count.

---He's produced all of the above despite playing for the a completely average 14th best pass offense.

---He has zero fumbles

I really don't understand your point here.  Should they be?  Is expecting TJ Hockenson to play like Travis Kelce the equivalent to my position that 2 catches and 22 yards a game from Sample is garbage?

Not following...

In his first season, he had 32 catches for 367 2TDs.  Sample played about half a year last year, coming off the bench.  This year, no camp, no preseason, etc. he was still second fiddle to Uzomah.  Now, in an offense that doesn't really feature the TE, he's the man now.  He makes some nice catches, when he's included in the action.  

All I'm saying is that because he hasn't wowed with great stats does not make him a "bum".  His lack of statistical success has more to do with circumstance than it does with personal ability.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-01-2020, 07:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I wonder if the Lions fans are outraged that TJ Hockenson isn't eclipsing Travis Kelce type numbers yet, seeing they spent the #8 pick on him in 2019?

Hockenson is currently graded at 77.1, and is tied for 5th in TD’s with 5...

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2020, 09:15 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Hockenson is currently graded at 77.1, and is tied for 5th in TD’s with 5...

So who's to say that with proper utilization that Sample isn't just as good?  Hockenson was the #8 OA pick, Sample was but a 2nd round selection.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-01-2020, 09:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So who's to say that with proper utilization that Sample isn't just as good?  Hockenson was the #8 OA pick, Sample was but a 2nd round selection.

Well Hockenson has produced in both college and the NFL. Sample hasn’t. And the Lions aren’t exactly the class of the league...

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-01-2020, 09:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So who's to say that with proper utilization that Sample isn't just as good?  Hockenson was the #8 OA pick, Sample was but a 2nd round selection.

I still don't know why we're talking about Hockenson in this discussion about Sample.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2020, 10:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I still don't know why we're talking about Hockenson in this discussion about Sample.

Because as a #8 OA selection, he amassed a whopping 43 receptions for 367 yards in his first full year of service.  Sample was a 2nd round pick, missed half the year to injury, is a role player in an offense that doesn't feature the TE as a regular weapon, and you want to shit on him like he's done something wrong.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-01-2020, 09:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well Hockenson has produced in both college and the NFL. Sample hasn’t. And the Lions aren’t exactly the class of the league...

For reference:

TJ Hockenson - Sophmore Stats - 49 receptions, 760 yards, 6 TD's, 15.5 YPR

Drew Sample - Career Stats - 46 receptions, 487 yards, 5 TD's, 10.1 YPC

Hockenson put substantially better numbers in a single year, his sophmore season at that, than Drew Sample did in all 4 years.

PS I still can't believe that we drafted a tight end in Round 2 that had 487 yards receiving in 4 years of college.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-01-2020, 10:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Because as a #8 OA selection, he amassed a whopping 43 receptions for 367 yards in his first full year of service.  Sample was a 2nd round pick, missed half the year to injury, is a role player in an offense that doesn't feature the TE as a regular weapon, and you want to shit on him like he's done something wrong.

You do know Hockenson missed time last year, and only started 7 games right.  It wasn't a "full year of service".

Fwiw, I find it incredibly ironic that you preface his stat line with "whopping" to illustrate how lackluster it is, when you're defending a guy that will put up worse numbers than those in 16 games played in his 2nd season.

The Lions signed Jesse James (Former Steeler) last year to a 4 year 23 million dollar deal, and made him their #1 TE.  Hockenson not only missed time, but he saw a fraction of the snaps, because they were running out James as a starter.

Drew Sample, on the other hand, is playing 2nd fiddle to no one, has been healthy all year, and his now a 2nd year player.

So, a rookie, who missed time, and is behind a high dollar vet = LOL 387 yards, 2 TD's, what a loser!

2nd year player, playing the 3rd most snaps on team, totally healthy = 366 yards, 0 TD's, let's give this guy a chance!!!

I don't why you're taking this so personally.  Why is Sample off limits for critcism?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-01-2020, 11:03 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You do know Hockenson missed time last year, and only started 7 games right.  It wasn't a "full year of service".

Fwiw, I find it incredibly ironic that you preface his stat line with "whopping" to illustrate how lackluster it is, when you're defending a guy that will put up worse numbers than those in 16 games played in his 2nd season.

The Lions signed Jesse James (Former Steeler) last year to a 4 year 23 million dollar deal, and made him their #1 TE.  Hockenson not only missed time, but he saw a fraction of the snaps, because they were running out James as a starter.

Drew Sample, on the other hand, is playing 2nd fiddle to no one, has been healthy all year, and his now a 2nd year player.

So, a rookie, who missed time, and is behind a high dollar vet = LOL 387 yards, 2 TD's, what a loser!

2nd year player, playing the 3rd most snaps on team, totally healthy = 366 yards, 0 TD's, let's give this guy a chance!!!

I don't why you're taking this so personally. Why is Sample off limits for critcism?

Yeah, that’s what I don’t get. The only defense seems to be we have some players that suck more?

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-01-2020, 10:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:   Sample was a 2nd round pick, missed half the year to injury

I'm talking about what I've seen THIS year.  Last year has nothing to do with my current opinion of him (That he's a bum).

He's fully healthy, he's getting plenty of snaps, he's running plenty of routes, yet his production is pure shit.

And I don't buy the system stuff either, because Uzomah averaged 4 catches and 44 yards a game, and had a TD, in his 2 games this year. And even worse, it's not like Uzomah is some stud TE. He's a bottom half of the league starter.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-01-2020, 11:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm talking about what I've seen THIS year.  Last year has nothing to do with my current opinion of him (That he's a bum).

He's fully healthy, he's getting plenty of snaps, he's running plenty of routes, yet his production is pure shit.

And I don't buy the system stuff either, because Uzomah averaged 4 catches and 44 yards a game, and had a TD, in his 2 games this year. And even worse, it's not like Uzomah is some stud TE. He's a bottom half of the league starter.

A nice TD, too. It wasn’t just a goal line pass. It was 23 yards, and was Joe’s longest for a while. Anyone think Sample makes that play?

[Wes Mantooth]

For those that think it's Taylor's system that is the reason we're seeing such low numbers...

2019
Tyler Eifert - 436 yards, 3 TD's
CJ Uzomah - 242 yards, 2 TD's
Drew Sample - 30 yards, 0 TD's
Cethan Carter - 13 yards, 1 TD

Total = 721 yards, and 5 TD's

2020
Drew Sample - 366 yards, 0 TD's (Projected)
CJ Uzomah -  87 yards, 1 TD
Cethan Carter - 46 yards, 0 TD's (Projected)

Total = 499 yards, 1 TD

You're looking at 30% decrease in yardage, and a 80% decrease in TD's from the Tight End position.  What's changed?

Well, you  now have Drew Sample out there all of the time.  And let's be very clear, a duo of a 2019 Eifert and Uzomah is a below average TE room.  It's not as if he's filling the shows of world class TE's. A 2nd round 2nd year Tight End should be able to fill the shoes of two below average vets.  Especially when you consider the following...

In 2019 our TE's averaged 45 yards a game in one of the worst offenses in the entire league.

In 2020 our TE's average 31 yards a game in a passing offense that was ranked top 10 in yards before Burrow went down.

***Note: Our 2020 numbers would be even worse had Uzomah not brought up the average with two respectable performances to start the year.

So is it just the system?  All of those reps are now going to one guy.  He's running more routes than we did last year, and we were passing for way more yards up until two weeks ago.

So someone explain to me how this happens.  Did the scheme change?  Or does our TE just suck balls in the pass game?

[*bfine32*]

(12-01-2020, 11:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: For those that think it's Taylor's system that is the reason we're seeing such low numbers...

2019
Tyler Eifert - 436 yards, 3 TD's
CJ Uzomah - 242 yards, 2 TD's
Drew Sample - 30 yards, 0 TD's
Cethan Carter - 13 yards, 1 TD

Total = 721 yards, and 5 TD's

2020
Drew Sample - 366 yards, 0 TD's (Projected)
CJ Uzomah -  87 yards, 1 TD
Cethan Carter - 46 yards, 0 TD's (Projected)

Total = 499 yards, 1 TD

You're looking at 30% decrease in yardage, and a 80% decrease in TD's from the Tight End position.  What's changed?

Well, you  now have Drew Sample out there all of the time.  And let's be very clear, a duo of a 2019 Eifert and Uzomah is a below average TE room.  It's not as if he's filling the shows of world class TE's. A 2nd round 2nd year Tight End should be able to fill the shoes of two below average vets.  Especially when you consider the following...

In 2019 our TE's averaged 45 yards a game in one of the worst offenses in the entire league.

In 2020 our TE's average 31 yards a game in a passing offense that was ranked top 10 in yards before Burrow went down.

***Note: Our 2020 numbers would be even worse had Uzomah not brought up the average with two respectable performances to start the year.

So is it just the system?  All of those reps are now going to one guy.  He's running more routes than we did last year, and we were passing for way more yards up until two weeks ago.

So someone explain to me how this happens.  Did the scheme change?  Or does our TE just suck balls in the pass game?

Our QB allows the play to develop.

Tee Higgins
 

[DYT_Bengal]

The 2nd round pick is a sunk cost. I am happy with Sample’s blocking when he is on the field - they need to play him as an h-back/ fullback during passing downs - the only consistent success I’ve seen on offense is when he is blocking on passing downs which is more of a statement on Zac if anything. Few people would be complaining if he was picked later in the draft.

[Whatever]

(12-01-2020, 11:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: For those that think it's Taylor's system that is the reason we're seeing such low numbers...

2019
Tyler Eifert - 436 yards, 3 TD's
CJ Uzomah - 242 yards, 2 TD's
Drew Sample - 30 yards, 0 TD's
Cethan Carter - 13 yards, 1 TD

Total = 721 yards, and 5 TD's

2020
Drew Sample - 366 yards, 0 TD's (Projected)
CJ Uzomah -  87 yards, 1 TD
Cethan Carter - 46 yards, 0 TD's (Projected)

Total = 499 yards, 1 TD

You're looking at 30% decrease in yardage, and a 80% decrease in TD's from the Tight End position.  What's changed?

Well, you  now have Drew Sample out there all of the time.  And let's be very clear, a duo of a 2019 Eifert and Uzomah is a below average TE room.  It's not as if he's filling the shows of world class TE's. A 2nd round 2nd year Tight End should be able to fill the shoes of two below average vets.  Especially when you consider the following...

In 2019 our TE's averaged 45 yards a game in one of the worst offenses in the entire league.

In 2020 our TE's average 31 yards a game in a passing offense that was ranked top 10 in yards before Burrow went down.

***Note: Our 2020 numbers would be even worse had Uzomah not brought up the average with two respectable performances to start the year.

So is it just the system?  All of those reps are now going to one guy.  He's running more routes than we did last year, and we were passing for way more yards up until two weeks ago.

So someone explain to me how this happens.  Did the scheme change?  Or does our TE just suck balls in the pass game?

John Ross, Damion Willis, and Auden Tate were all starting games at WR last year, and both Ross and Tate also missed big chunks of the year.  Lack of talent at WR necessitated the TE's  to be targeted more.  This year, we have 2 good WR'S in Tee and Boyd plus a washed up AJ Green that demands targets.

[Frank Booth]

TJ Hockenson is a top 5 tight end in this league

You don’t need pro football focus to tell u that

I hate how people reference pff like it’s the end all be all. Stop it

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-02-2020, 02:14 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: TJ Hockenson is a top 5 tight end in this league

You don’t need pro football focus to tell u that

I hate how people reference pff like it’s the end all be all. Stop it

Nobody tried to use his PFF grade as the “end all be all.” It was mentioned in addition with his yards, TD’s, college production, where he was drafted, etc.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(12-01-2020, 07:56 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Hubbard makes his money as a #2 or #3 threat. When he was at Ohio state and in his first year here he wasn’t a focus because of some talent around him. Without that talent around him his effectiveness gets washed out.

He’s kinda the Mo Sanu of the defense meaning he needs an AJ or Julio to take the double team.

That's not really accurate imo. He gets off of blocks and he stops the run in his assigned gap. A good DC makes him look like a damn good player. Lou is a ***** goofball so you have Hubbard playing LB.