Possible 2021 Free agents

[Wes Mantooth]

Definitely in favor of letting WJIII walk.

Trae Waynes is due 16 million dollars next year. I'd imagine the market for WJIII will north of 10 mil. I would not feel at all comfortable with having around 30 million dollars locked up into those two corners.

I hope we didn't overpay for Waynes, but I do believe he's far from elite. And I feel the same about WJIII. He's too inconsistent. From both in his career, and from game to game. He's very good in man, but leaves a lot to be desired in zone.

IMHO, the market for corners is incredibly inflated. Outside of the elite players, you have a jumbled up group of guys that sometimes flash and sometimes don't. And they get grossly overpaid (See Dre Kirkpatricks old deal).

Invest into getting pressure on the QB and you can make average CB's look great. Find a mid-level vet at 3-8 mil per to pair with Waynes. Maybe look into bringing Mackenzie Alexander back too. See if you can hit on someone in the draft in the mid rounds as well. And save that cap space from a WJIII deal to use on OL/DL/LB.

[Murdock2420]

(11-17-2020, 05:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Definitely in favor of letting WJIII walk.

Trae Waynes is due 16 million dollars next year.  I'd imagine the market for WJIII will north of 10 mil.  I would not feel at all comfortable with having around 30 million dollars locked up into those two corners.

I hope we didn't overpay for Waynes, but I do believe he's far from elite.  And I feel the same about WJIII.  He's too inconsistent.  From both in his career, and from game to game.  He's very good in man, but leaves a lot to be desired in zone.

IMHO, the market for corners is incredibly inflated.  Outside of the elite players, you have a jumbled up group of guys that sometimes flash and sometimes don't.  And they get grossly overpaid (See Dre Kirkpatricks old deal).

Invest into getting pressure on the QB and you can make average CB's look great.  Find a mid-level vet at 3-8 mil per to pair with Waynes.  Maybe look into bringing Mackenzie Alexander back too.  See if you can hit on someone in the draft in the mid rounds as well.  And save that cap space from a WJIII deal to use on OL/DL/LB.

With where we are looking to pick in the draft this year, we would be in a great place to let WJIII walk and draft one of the top two corners in the draft. 

Use the FA money to fill holes that aren't going to be as pricey and draft CB and edge rushers.

[J24]

(11-17-2020, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I get the impression they plan to shift further and further to a 3-4, especially as we've seen Atkins primarily used at the NT position this season.
If they do actually make that shift to more of a 3-4, the Bengals will need actual 3-4 DEs with some length.

If they do that, I think Derek Wolfe is a great veteran option that should come cheap. Let him finish his career in his college town.

The 3-4 system we use isn't a traditional 2 gap 3-4 style and we play Nickle the majority of the time anyways so it's not a big deal. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-17-2020, 07:23 PM)J24 Wrote: The 3-4 system we use isn't a traditional 2 gap 3-4 style and we play Nickle the majority of the time anyways so it's not a big deal. 

The system we use is also not exactly the same it was last year, correct?
I feel like they've played more in a 3-4 this year than they did last year.
Could they not be shifting more to a traditional 3-4?
I don't know with this defense. I just know it's trash right now.

[J24]

(11-17-2020, 07:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The system we use is also not exactly the same it was last year, correct?
Could they not be shifting more to a traditional 3-4?
I don't know with this defense. I just know it's trash right now.

Yep it sucks. We need better players.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(11-17-2020, 05:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Thuney - Definite upgrade, but will the Bengals fork over $14 mill per year to a guard?
Scherff - Same as Thuney
Linsley - While Linsley is a good C, I don't see the Bengals moving on from Hopkins.
Trent Williams - He's really good, but Jonah has been really good too. Do you want to bench/move the Bengals' best OL to bring in Trent? Or put Trent at RT?
Villanueva - Jonah has actually been slightly better than Villanueva. So do you put Villanueva at RT to replace Hart? Hart has been a better run blocker than Villanueva.
For Trent Williams and Villanueva, they are both 32 years old. I'm not sure the Bengals will invest big money into an OL who is beyond 30.

Let's instead be more realistic.
The two OT spots and the C spot are least likely to be replaced in the offseason because we've seen decent-or-better performance from those positions. The OG spots are the biggest weakness right now, but we've seen Spain come in and play adequately. Spain and/or XSF might be able to help solidify the OG spots by season's end.

Thuney is 27 Scherff is 32. I think a 4 year 45-50 Million salary gets Thuney signed.
Trent Williams would cost too much and I am not sure about his attitude. Dominating player though when he wants to play.
Love Villanueva and what he is all about. Doubtful he would come play for the Bengals.
I think jury is still out on Hopkins. I like him though but would switch him to Guard if we found a better Center.
XSF has not shown anything here or with the Cowboys that makers me think he is more than a good backup.

It is all about protecting JB. I am not sure how much I love Mixon for the money he gets paid. He runs well but is not the best at pass protection. It is too late to trade him because it would be too big of a dead money hit. That money could have been better spent elsewhere. I thought Perine played very well and he is a bigger back by 20 lbs. I am not sure how good Perine is in pass protection or catching passes out of the backfield. though.

Thuney is the best FA target for us in the offseason.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-17-2020, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Given that the defense is in worse shape than the offense (both from a personnel and scheme perspective), the defense needs to be addressed more than the offense.

It becomes even more critical if WJ3 and/or Lawson leaves in FA.

I think the team can get by on offense without adding any big FA, and they can address a couple offensive pieces in the draft (OL, WR).
DL needs 2-3 more decent-or-better players. CB needs added depth, possibly a new starter.
LB could use an upgrade too but they've already invested 4 draft picks into it from the past two years.
I would look for EDGE as my top priority for FA, followed by DB/OL.

Feel the same, Spain is the guy that needs to be retained clearly on Offense but the Defense needs a pass rush worse than 
anything else. Bring back Lawson and add to the D-line are my thoughts on Free Agency. Try and be more like the other teams
of the AFC North build the pass rush and the trenches on both sides along with adding quality Corners.

Killed us having Tony Brown out there against the Steelers and killed us with Sims before with these back ups.

Actually thought Jalin Davis had an okay day but we are really hurting at CB especially with Alexander getting a concussion and
Waynes and Phillips out.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-17-2020, 09:10 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Thuney is 27 Scherff is 32. I think a 4 year 45-50 Million salary gets Thuney signed.
Trent Williams would cost too much and I am not sure about his attitude. Dominating player though when he wants to play.
Love Villanueva and what he is all about. Doubtful he would come play for the Bengals.
I think jury is still out on Hopkins. I like him though but would switch him to Guard if we found a better Center.
XSF has not shown anything here or with the Cowboys that makers me think he is more than a good backup.

It is all about protecting JB. I am not sure how much I love Mixon for the money he gets paid. He runs well but is not the best at pass protection. It is too late to trade him because it would be too big of a dead money hit. That money could have been better spent elsewhere. I thought Perine played very well and he is a bigger back by 20 lbs. I am not sure how good Perine is in pass protection or catching passes out of the backfield. though.

Thuney is the best FA target for us in the offseason.

Thuney is currently making $14.781 mill this season with NE, as he was franchised. He may seek around $14-15 mill a year to leave NE, especially to come to Cincinnati. I realize NE is not what they were with Tom Brady, but they are better than the Bengals.

We'll have to see though, as the reduced cap might make players willing to sign for less.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-17-2020, 09:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Feel the same, Spain is the guy that needs to be retained clearly on Offense but the Defense needs a pass rush worse than 
anything else. Bring back Lawson and add to the D-line are my thoughts on Free Agency. Try and be more like the other teams
of the AFC North build the pass rush and the trenches on both sides along with adding quality Corners.

Killed us having Tony Brown out there against the Steelers and killed us with Sims before with these back ups.

Actually thought Jalin Davis had an okay day but we are really hurting at CB especially with Alexander getting a concussion and
Waynes and Phillips out.

I think the pass rushers are so bad that I'd actually re-sign Lawson, draft 2 more, and probably look to sign a veteran on a cheaper contract like Derek Wolfe who can play DT and DE.

[Whatever]

(11-17-2020, 05:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Thuney - Definite upgrade, but will the Bengals fork over $14 mill per year to a guard?
Scherff - Same as Thuney
Linsley - While Linsley is a good C, I don't see the Bengals moving on from Hopkins.
Trent Williams - He's really good, but Jonah has been really good too. Do you want to bench/move the Bengals' best OL to bring in Trent? Or put Trent at RT?
Villanueva - Jonah has actually been slightly better than Villanueva. So do you put Villanueva at RT to replace Hart? Hart has been a better run blocker than Villanueva.
For Trent Williams and Villanueva, they are both 32 years old. I'm not sure the Bengals will invest big money into an OL who is beyond 30.

Let's instead be more realistic.
The two OT spots and the C spot are least likely to be replaced in the offseason because we've seen decent-or-better performance from those positions. The OG spots are the biggest weakness right now, but we've seen Spain come in and play adequately. Spain and/or XSF might be able to help solidify the OG spots by season's end.

After this off-season, it's hard to say what the Bengals would do.  Before their spending spree in FA, I would agree that there's no chance they would pursue most of these guys.   I mean, for years people were saying they wouldn't spend a 1st on an IOL then they took Zeitler and Price.

Thuney would make sense from a need standpoint.  He's also a Centerville native and Mike loves his hometown heroes.  Plus, he has rings already.

Linsey is an interesting option.  C's are your best values on the OL in FA to start with.  On top of that, given the cap situation, there will be very few teams looking to throw big money at a top C.  Trey can also play G, so his contract isn't necessarily a waste if you get Linsey.  Plus, he's a Youngstown/OSU guy. 

The Bengals reportedly had interest in trading for Williams, so it would make sense if they pursued him in FA.  Jonah also played RT in college, so he is capable of making the switch.  

Villenueva is actually graded a little better than Jonah currently is.  He's also had some issues with the Steelers.  He had a public dispute and hold out over a contract extension.  He is also a military veteran and chose to go out and stand alone for the national anthem a couple of years ago while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room to protest.  

Spain has played well given the circumstances, but he has been far from great.  Plus, he's a FA next year.  He and XSF are guys we have the opportunity to upgrade over and should do so.  Joe likes to hold the ball to make big plays, so a mediocre OL will still result in a bunch of sacks, hits, and fumbles.  He needs a good/great line to be most effective.

[Whatever]

(11-17-2020, 05:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Definitely in favor of letting WJIII walk.

Trae Waynes is due 16 million dollars next year.  I'd imagine the market for WJIII will north of 10 mil.  I would not feel at all comfortable with having around 30 million dollars locked up into those two corners.

I hope we didn't overpay for Waynes, but I do believe he's far from elite.  And I feel the same about WJIII.  He's too inconsistent.  From both in his career, and from game to game.  He's very good in man, but leaves a lot to be desired in zone.

IMHO, the market for corners is incredibly inflated.  Outside of the elite players, you have a jumbled up group of guys that sometimes flash and sometimes don't.  And they get grossly overpaid (See Dre Kirkpatricks old deal).

Invest into getting pressure on the QB and you can make average CB's look great.  Find a mid-level vet at 3-8 mil per to pair with Waynes.  Maybe look into bringing Mackenzie Alexander back too.  See if you can hit on someone in the draft in the mid rounds as well.  And save that cap space from a WJIII deal to use on OL/DL/LB.

There's going to be a lot of starting caliber CB's out there on prove it deals next year.  I could honestly see WJIII wind up doing a Dennard ie:not finding the market he thought he'd have and resigning on the cheap for a year.  I don't think the guy is nearly as revered around the league as a lot of us think he is.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-18-2020, 01:43 PM)Whatever Wrote: After this off-season, it's hard to say what the Bengals would do.  Before their spending spree in FA, I would agree that there's no chance they would pursue most of these guys.   I mean, for years people were saying they wouldn't spend a 1st on an IOL then they took Zeitler and Price.

Thuney would make sense from a need standpoint.  He's also a Centerville native and Mike loves his hometown heroes.  Plus, he has rings already.

Linsey is an interesting option.  C's are your best values on the OL in FA to start with.  On top of that, given the cap situation, there will be very few teams looking to throw big money at a top C.  Trey can also play G, so his contract isn't necessarily a waste if you get Linsey.  Plus, he's a Youngstown/OSU guy. 

The Bengals reportedly had interest in trading for Williams, so it would make sense if they pursued him in FA.  Jonah also played RT in college, so he is capable of making the switch.  

Villenueva is actually graded a little better than Jonah currently is.  He's also had some issues with the Steelers.  He had a public dispute and hold out over a contract extension.  He is also a military veteran and chose to go out and stand alone for the national anthem a couple of years ago while the rest of the team stayed in the locker room to protest.  

Spain has played well given the circumstances, but he has been far from great.  Plus, he's a FA next year.  He and XSF are guys we have the opportunity to upgrade over and should do so.  Joe likes to hold the ball to make big plays, so a mediocre OL will still result in a bunch of sacks, hits, and fumbles.  He needs a good/great line to be most effective.

Jonah - 74.8 (75.1 pass, 65.5 run), 1 sack allowed, 1 penalty

Villanueva - 74.8 (78.7 pass, 61.2 run), 2 sacks allowed, 1 penalty

They are basically the same. So unless the team would want to move on from Hart and shift Williams to RT, I don't see the need to bring in Villanueva to replace Williams at LT

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-17-2020, 05:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Definitely in favor of letting WJIII walk.

Trae Waynes is due 16 million dollars next year. I'd imagine the market for WJIII will north of 10 mil. I would not feel at all comfortable with having around 30 million dollars locked up into those two corners.

I hope we didn't overpay for Waynes, but I do believe he's far from elite. And I feel the same about WJIII. He's too inconsistent. From both in his career, and from game to game. He's very good in man, but leaves a lot to be desired in zone.

IMHO, the market for corners is incredibly inflated. Outside of the elite players, you have a jumbled up group of guys that sometimes flash and sometimes don't. And they get grossly overpaid (See Dre Kirkpatricks old deal).

Invest into getting pressure on the QB and you can make average CB's look great. Find a mid-level vet at 3-8 mil per to pair with Waynes. Maybe look into bringing Mackenzie Alexander back too. See if you can hit on someone in the draft in the mid rounds as well. And save that cap space from a WJIII deal to use on OL/DL/LB.

Agree the market for CB is inflated but then the replacement cost will be inflated as well. It's like everyone wanted Kirkpatrick gone because he cost too much but then they didn't really save anything like people thought they would because they replaced him with Waynes. The Bengals will pay a premium on any CB they sign - because who wants to come and play D for Cincy if they have options - on top of the premium for CBs and end up with a lesser player. I'll go on record and say I think we'll end up spending more on replacements (and my money is on it taking several attempts to replace him) for WJIII than we would spend on extending him.

Personally, my priorities before free agency are extending Lawson and WJIII. Everyone else out of contract can be replaced easily enough. Those two will be expensive to sign but they will also be expensive to replace and as we didn't commit to a rebuild by trading away veterans for draft picks we don't have the draft capital to replace them in the draft and fill our other holes.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-18-2020, 10:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I think the pass rushers are so bad that I'd actually re-sign Lawson, draft 2 more, and probably look to sign a veteran on a cheaper contract like Derek Wolfe who can play DT and DE.

Agree. Lawson and Hubbard are decent but no one else gets any pressure besides maybe Covington at DT.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-18-2020, 05:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree. Lawson and Hubbard are decent but no one else gets any pressure besides maybe Covington at DT.

Perhaps I was looking in wrong spot before, but pro-football-reference now lists QB Hits, knockdowns, and hurries under advanced defense.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2020_advanced.htm

Here are those stats for the Bengals:
Lawson - 3.5 sacks, 9 hurries, 13 knockdowns = 26 total pressures
Hubbard - 1.0 sack, 4 hurries, 1 knockdown = 6 total pressures
ADG - 0.5 sack, 3 hurries, 0 knockdowns = 4 total pressures
Covington - 0 sacks, 4 hurries, 0 knockdowns = 4 total pressures
Bell - 0 sacks, 0 hurries, 3 knockdowns = 3 total pressures
Wilson - 2 pressures
Reader - 2 pressures
Bynes, Evans, Xavier Williams, Alexander, Kareem, Bledsoe - 1 pressure each
Atkins, Pratt - 0 pressures

Dunlap also had 7 total pressures at the time of his departure, which would put him 2nd on the team.

[kalibengal]

(11-17-2020, 09:16 AM)corpjet Wrote: I believe last I counted we had 21 or so free agents, the bigger names included are:

1.  Fat Randy
2.  Josh Bynes
3.  Mike Daniels
4.  AJ Green
5.  Kevin Huber
6.  Carl Lawson
7.  WJIII
8.  John Ross
9.  Mike THomas
10.  Brandon Wilson
11. Clark Harris
12.  Alex Erickson
13.  Jordan Evans

Huber, Lawson, Harris and Wilson
the rest can go...yes WJIII can go too...we need more physicality at that position. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-18-2020, 05:52 PM)kalibengal Wrote: Huber, Lawson, Harris and Wilson
the rest can go...yes WJIII can go too...we need more physicality at that position. 

You may as well remove Anarumo too because he does not run a physical defensive scheme.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-18-2020, 05:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Perhaps I was looking in wrong spot before, but pro-football-reference now lists QB Hits, knockdowns, and hurries under advanced defense.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2020_advanced.htm

Here are those stats for the Bengals:
Lawson - 3.5 sacks, 9 hurries, 13 knockdowns = 26 total pressures
Hubbard - 1.0 sack, 4 hurries, 1 knockdown = 6 total pressures
ADG - 0.5 sack, 3 hurries, 0 knockdowns = 4 total pressures
Covington - 0 sacks, 4 hurries, 0 knockdowns = 4 total pressures
Bell - 0 sacks, 0 hurries, 3 knockdowns = 3 total pressures
Wilson - 2 pressures
Reader - 2 pressures
Bynes, Evans, Xavier Williams, Alexander, Kareem, Bledsoe - 1 pressure each
Atkins, Pratt - 0 pressures

Dunlap also had 7 total pressures at the time of his departure, which would put him 2nd on the team.

Thanks, looks like in the mean time we need to blitz ADG, Bell and Wilson more until we can add more to the End position.

Hubbard has been hurt, I would say this is the only reason he doesn't have more pressures.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-19-2020, 05:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks, looks like in the mean time we need to blitz ADG, Bell and Wilson more until we can add more to the End position.

Hubbard has been hurt, I would say this is the only reason he doesn't have more pressures.

Hubbard has been in 6 games.
That's an average of 1 pressure per game.
That's still low.

His pressures the previous two years:
2018 - 13
2019 - 19

Hubbard is a solid player, but he's really not a big pass rushing threat when looking across the league.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-19-2020, 05:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hubbard has been in 6 games.
That's an average of 1 pressure per game.
That's still low.

His pressures the previous two years:
2018 - 13
2019 - 19

Hubbard is a solid player, but he's really not a big pass rushing threat when looking across the league.

True, he is not a great pass rusher but decent. Damn good run stopper though. He was right behind Khalil Mack at one 
point on PFF I remember in stopping the run off the edge this season before he went down. Should of had that pick on 
the Pig too last game. That sure would of changed the game big time if he came down with that.