Defensive scheme to blame for lack of pass rushing?

[*ochocincos*]

When seeing the team have such a lack of production with rushing the passer including Carlos Dunlap, I was interested to see how Dunlap would do now that he's at SEA.

I saw Joe Goodberry tweet the following about Carlos Dunlap:

Carlos Dunlap has already rushed the passer 104 times with Seattle. PFF has awarded him with 13 pressures and 5 sacks.

Dunlap rushed the passer 186 with Cincinnati. He had 13 pressures and 1 sack during that time.

He's now back on track to have his typical statistical season.

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 20, 2020

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

When looking at pro-football-reference, I see similar trends:
Dunlap with Bengals:
7 games, 7 pressures, 1.0 sack

Dunlap with Seahawks:
3 games, 4 pressures, 3.5 sacks

So Dunlap is being used solely as a pass rusher in Seattle but was asked to only rush the passer part of the time in Cincinnati.

This leads me to believe that part of the problem for such bad pass rush is because of how the players are being used, not so much because the players are not good at it.

[KillerGoose]

(11-20-2020, 12:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: When seeing the team have such a lack of production with rushing the passer including Carlos Dunlap, I was interested to see how Dunlap would do now that he's at SEA.

I saw Joe Goodberry tweet the following about Carlos Dunlap:

Carlos Dunlap has already rushed the passer 104 times with Seattle. PFF has awarded him with 13 pressures and 5 sacks.

Dunlap rushed the passer 186 with Cincinnati. He had 13 pressures and 1 sack during that time.

He's now back on track to have his typical statistical season.

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 20, 2020

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

When looking at pro-football-reference, I see similar trends:
Dunlap with Bengals:
7 games, 7 pressures, 1.0 sack

Dunlap with Seahawks:
3 games, 4 pressures, 3.5 sacks

So Dunlap is being used solely as a pass rusher in Seattle but was asked to only rush the passer part of the time in Cincinnati.

This leads me to believe that part of the problem for such bad pass rush is because of how the players are being used, not so much because the players are not good at it.

There is definitely something there, but I am not super sharp when it comes to defense so exactly what that is, I can't say. My trust in Anarumo has been nearly non-existent for quite some time now and I don't think that Dunlap's sudden resurgence in Seattle is a coincidence. He has been a very good pass rusher for his entire career here, until this year. Something obviously changed. It could partly be effort, but there is also something else that they were asking him to do that just wasn't working.

Regardless, Lou needs to be gone and this defense needs a new coordinator next season. It isn't working. 

[fredtoast]

Most of us are used to being able to just quit a job when we have a clueless boss who we don't feel is treating us properly. But sometimes professional athletes have to take extreme measures to get out from under a contract that has them in that type of situation.

Los's behavior here this year was not proper. But I know I would have done the same thing and I assume most of you would have also.

He looked like an ass, but in the long run it looks like he will prove that he was right all along. And that is all that matters to him.

[fredtoast]

As to our scheme being part of the problem with the pass rush I think it probably is. some defenses dial up line stunts and blitzes that fool the offense and result in pressure. Other teams will send guys on blitzes and they just get picked up by blockers.

Every coach needs talent. No coach can create a pass rush without some good players. But I feel we had some talent to work with.

[*bengalfan74*]

I believe this defense has lacked any swagger and has been playing non-aggressive for several years now dating back to before the current staff.

And I feel that's a big factor in well everything. They take the field with a gee I hope we don't get crushed, again, attitude and it shows.

[Tony]

Of course Dunlap is playing better. Seattle is known for Defense. Better overall system and talent. I will admit I was wrong about Dunlap. I guess I just wanted him to be bad.. Everytime reality has a chance to piss in Bengals fans faces it never misses... I guess we all knew this was bound to happen. Dunlap looking like 1 of the Best DEs in the league. Fred Toast was 100% right..

[Whatever]

(11-20-2020, 01:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Most of us are used to being able to just quit a job when we have a clueless boss who we don't feel is treating us properly.  But sometimes professional athletes have to take extreme measures to get out from under a contract that has them in that type of situation.

Los's behavior here this year was not proper.  But I know I would have done the same thing and I assume most of you would have also.

He looked like an ass, but in the long run it looks like he will prove that he was right all along.  And that is all that matters to him.

Hard to say.  In general, when a company gets bought out, the first thing they do is clean house on the old management.  Why?  They don't want people set in their ways being passive-aggressive and sabotaging their ideas.

Marvin said himself when Teryl Austin got the axe that the players were responsible.  That set a bad precedent, because it basically told the players that they could half ass it and sabotage the coaches if they didn't like the scheme and management would have their back.

Carlos had success in the Zimmer/Guenther system.  He didn't want to change or maybe didn't have the skill set to adapt.  But you can't blame the scheme if you aren't trying your hardest.  

[GreenCornBengal]

Lou had always been a defensive backs coach. What I’m thinking now is that he doesn’t know how to properly scheme for effective pass rush. IDK if a better Dline coach could fix this or not...

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

1 sack in the last 3 games for the entire Bengals defense.
0 sacks in the last 5 games for Lawson.

3.5 sacks in the last 3 games for Dunlap.

This is a scheme problem. Even a DL entirely of scrubs should be doing *slightly* better than that.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 01:49 PM)Whatever Wrote: Hard to say.  In general, when a company gets bought out, the first thing they do is clean house on the old management.  Why?  They don't want people set in their ways being passive-aggressive and sabotaging their ideas.

Marvin said himself when Teryl Austin got the axe that the players were responsible.  That set a bad precedent, because it basically told the players that they could half ass it and sabotage the coaches if they didn't like the scheme and management would have their back.

Carlos had success in the Zimmer/Guenther system.  He didn't want to change or maybe didn't have the skill set to adapt.  But you can't blame the scheme if you aren't trying your hardest.  

It's also the coordinator's job to build a scheme based on the talent they have.
You probably shouldn't be taking your pass rushing specialist and dropping him into coverage nearly as often as they did.
It's your responsibility to know if your staff has the ability (and willingness) to fit into your scheme.

I have seen this same type of thing in my industry - software testing.
Nowadays, more and more software testing is demanding automation so that testing can be faster for quicker delivery.
As such, the staff needs to know how to program automation.
If you have staff who is only has done manual testing, you need to put them on a program to try to ramp them up with automation.
If they still cannot automate or don't show interest in change, you move on from them in favor of people who can and will.

[*jason*]

Well I mean at least we got a 7th, and another guy that'll never see the field for him. Zac and his flunkies need to go...

[Joelist]

Right now the Bengals have no identity on defense and a large part of that is the “hybrid” scheme which is just another way of saying they have no base defense that everything else radiates out from (like successful defenses do).

I think our linemen would do better if we had a consistent group out there whose responsibilities were also consistent. In the same vein the LB would be developing better if we picked starters (and NOT only 2 but either 3 or 4) and that group played together with set responsibilities. It goes to the secondary also - pick your group and make the responsibilities consistent.

[J24]

When you're playing two mid season pickups and 5th rd rookie over 2nd best pass rusher then the coordinator has a major ego problem. The defense was playing well until the Colts game then everything went to shit.
I don't think it's a scheme issue as much as refusing to play your best players. What happened to Carlos and what's happening to Geno is one of the weirdest things I have ever seen in sports. The coaches would rather lose without them then win with them.

[fredtoast]

I think the biggest proof that scheme makes a difference with pass rush is the way the Bengals have struggled in pass protection.  It seems to me that the Bengal O-linemen have more problems picking up stunts and blitzes than just being physically beaten one-on-one.  Lots of sacks given up just because the o-linemen don't properly pick up a twist or a loop from D-linemen.  And most of Baltimore's sacks came from DBs.  They certainly were not just running over our O-linemen.

Another important issue is the ability to disguise the blitz so that the offense does not see it coming.  That is an important skill for a DC.

[impactplaya]

Its pretty simple. Carlos Dunlap will go.all out of his team is winning.
If the isnt winning and playoffs arent in reach, he wont give you
His all.

Number 2. He didnt buy into Lou's scheme. His lack of effort from
Play to play reflected both points I just made.

Dunlap gave 100% under :Zimmer. Zimmer wouldnt tolerate any less
Nobody respects Lou or his scheme. Its simple

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2020, 02:30 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Its pretty simple. Carlos Dunlap will go.all out of his team is winning.
If the isnt winning and playoffs arent in reach, he wont give you
His all.

You don't have to look back any farther than last year to see this is complete bullshit.

Bengals were 0-7 and had no chance at playoffs, yet over the final 9 games Dunlap had 44 tkls, 8 sacks, 9 TFL, 8 PDs, and 18 QB hits.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 02:27 PM)J24 Wrote: When you're playing two mid season pickups and 5th rd rookie over 2nd best pass rusher then the coordinator has a major ego problem. The defense was playing well until the Colts game then everything went to shit.
I don't think it's a scheme issue as much as refusing to play your best players. What happened to Carlos and what's happening to Geno is one of the weirdest things I have ever seen in sports. The coaches would rather lose without them then win with them.

Maybe we have different views of what falls under scheme, but putting a 4-3 DE into coverage falls under scheme to me.

[Yojimbo]

(11-20-2020, 02:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Maybe we have different views of what falls under scheme, but putting a 4-3 DE into coverage falls under scheme to me.

I saw Hubbard in coverage 20 yards down field last Sunday. Best pass rushing option opposite Lawson, 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage on a pass play.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 02:48 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I saw Hubbard in coverage 20 yards down field last Sunday. Best pass rushing option opposite Lawson, 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage on a pass play.

In that scenario, they were only sending 3 to rush the passer, right?

If so, that means they intentionally put 8 defenders in coverage to cover up to 5 receiving options.
That seems excessive to me.

[GreenCornBengal]

(11-20-2020, 02:48 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I saw Hubbard in coverage 20 yards down field last Sunday. Best pass rushing option opposite Lawson, 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage on a pass play.

I don’t remember if it was Lou or one of the coordinators before him but when I saw Atkins out in coverage I lost all hope.