This Team Needs a Stud Linebacker

[*jason*]

(11-20-2020, 03:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This is the most environmentally kind thread topic there has ever been with how often it's been recycled. Lol

Pretty sure over the last 20 years there was 1 year of Odell, maybe 1 year where we felt good about the Howard/Maualuga combo, 1/2 of a year where we felt good about Keith Rivers, and then like 2 years where we felt great about Burfict.

No idea why this team struggles so hard in finding quality linebackers.

I have a theory as to why they struggle to find a great LB... They don't draft them in the first round. Rivers aside (I know that actually happened,) we haven't gone LB in the first since Spikes and Simmons. Those guys were pretty good. Since then... QB twice, WR and OT thrice, TE twice, CB umpteen times. Our LBs have been mid round picks, FAs past their prime, undrafted FAs. If you don't put a premium on the position, it's hard to find premium players.

Edit: I'm full of shit. I forgot about Pollack too.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-20-2020, 11:37 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I forgot about Rivers. Totally my bad.

It’s really not hard to understand that when you choose to not pick defensive talent early when you build through the draft that unit isn going to be very good. Until this year we never brought in quality FA either.

Maybe if they had this defensive guru who could scheme around there weaknesses and could manufacture pass rushes from almost nothing it would be different. Zimmer could do that with UDFA and one dimensional linebackers and some linemen off the streets. Ole Lou doesn’t seem to be doing it with tge Tony Browns of the NFL however.

100% agree they need a premium pass rusher.

That's actually an interesting part about that list that I never thought of until I had put it down there like that in front of me. Zimmer arrived in 2008, I doubt he had the pull to choose who they were taking with the 9th overall pick in his first season. Meanwhile of those 6 terrible 3rd round LBs, 5 of them were taken after Zimmer left with only Moch being taken while Zimmer was there and Moch seemed like pt2 of Marvin's attempt to get a Terrell Suggs/James Harrison for the Bengals (pt1 being his efforts turning Michael Johnson from a DE to a LB to a DE to a LB to a DE).

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-21-2020, 12:43 AM)jason Wrote: I have a theory as to why they struggle to find a great LB... They don't draft them in the first round. Rivers aside (I know that actually happened,) we haven't gone LB in the first since Spikes and Simmons. Those guys were pretty good. Since then... QB twice, WR and OT thrice, TE twice, CB umpteen times. Our LBs have been mid round picks, FAs past their prime, undrafted FAs. If you don't put a premium on the position, it's hard to find premium players.

Edit: I'm full of shit. I forgot about Pollack too.

:andy:

That was gonna be my reply. Lol

They've put the draft capital into it over time, it's just turned up shit for them. They select terrible LBs. I am starting to think they need to just get OL and LB from FA/Trades these days and just stick to drafting other positions.

[Big_Ern]

A lot of people on here are chalking it up to is not using first round draft picks on LBs. I'd be curious to see what round the top 10 ILBs on PFF were drafted in. I would guess most we're not in the first round. So it's a scouting problem

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-20-2020, 02:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: We need a big-time linebacker.  A high level, versatile, play-making beast of LB.  They don't have to be the 2nd coming of Brian Urlacher or Ray Lewis, but they do need to be much better than what we've had.

How long has it been since we've had a linebacker that fits this description?  More importantly, how long as it been since we've had a well above average LB that we could count on from year to year?

You might want to throw out Burfict's name.  He definitely fit the desciption at times.  The problem with him is he only started 16 games once in his entire career.  His other year he saw the field in every game was his rookie year, where he hadn't quite reached his peak level.  After year 2, here are his games played totals for us: 5, 10, 11, 10, 7.

At times Burfict was elite, and a force.  At other times he was slow, and out of shape.  And most of the time we couldn't count on having him for a full season.

Before him, you have to go all the way back to 2005 to find Odell Thurman.  He has a fantastic rookie campaign with 105 tackles, 5 INT's, and 5 FF's.  Of course, we all know the problem here.  He only played one season.  Such a shame, because he could've and should've been someone we could count on year-in and year-out.

The one player that comes to mind, that I think fits my description, is Takeo Spikes, who played here from '98 to '02.  You have to go back almost 20 years to find an above average LB we've had that was a full-time starter over a stretch of years.

Guys, that's a big problem.

We need to find that guy again.  They don't have to be all-world, just a top 1/3 of the league guy that can make some big plays.

The guys we recently drafted could be decent.  I'm not writing them off or anything like that.  Although, I have way more faith in Logan Wilson to be a legitimate starter than Davis-Geather (dude looks so slow).  But I don't think either of these guys fit my description either.

I hope we either go out and pay a chunck of a change to legitimate FA, or we target a LB early in the 2nd or late in the first (we could trade up).  I know we have a lot of holes, but we continue to run out a garbage LB core year after year.  We need to do better here.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but with regards to ADG, I remember seeing him at the Senior Bowl and thinking what a coverage ace the guy was.  There was some lingering questions at the draft about his knee, but it appears to be fine.  But, am I the only one who looks at him and thought:  "THAT is ADG???"  Dude looks as big as Carl Lawson!  I WANTED a speed 229 lb linebacker.  The game is changing and the days of the 260 lb middle backer that just stuffs the run are gone.  Has he put on too much weight?  Is this why he looks so slow?  He isn't fat, but there is no way that guy is 229 lbs.  

I just wonder if they ruined his key asset by trying so hard to bulk him up?   

[JSR18]

(11-21-2020, 10:48 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't mean to hijack your thread, but with regards to ADG, I remember seeing him at the Senior Bowl and thinking what a coverage ace the guy was.  There was some lingering questions at the draft about his knee, but it appears to be fine.  But, am I the only one who looks at him and thought:  "THAT is ADG???"  Dude looks as big as Carl Lawson!  I WANTED a speed 229 lb linebacker.  The game is changing and the days of the 260 lb middle backer that just stuffs the run are gone.  Has he put on too much weight?  Is this why he looks so slow?  He isn't fat, but there is no way that guy is 229 lbs.  

I just wonder if they ruined his key asset by trying so hard to bulk him up?   

 This. However, I think he's having trouble with Lou's scheme and has to play slower than he did in college. Also, there's probably some misuse going on like everybody on defense...

[Benton]

(11-20-2020, 04:20 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: They just don't draft D early.

Just one first round and one second round pick on D in the last 6 drafts.

Since 1991 they've only twice gone D with their first two picks (1998 and 2005 - incidentally all LBers).

In contrast they've double dipped on O in 1995, 1996, 2003, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2020

FWIW I think they need a stud pass-rusher.

In the last decade we took dunlap and bates in the second. We also spent two or three (can't remember) first round picks on corners. I'm amazed our defense isn't worse, given the lack of priority in the draft or quality defensive free agents. It's like they think you just field some corners and it'll work itself out.

[EatonFan]

I always liked Tekeo Spikes. Even Briam Simmons wasn't bad (probably drafted too high though).

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-21-2020, 10:12 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: A lot of people on here are chalking it up to is not using first round draft picks on LBs. I'd be curious to see what round the top 10 ILBs on PFF were drafted in. I would guess most we're not in the first round.  So it's a scouting problem

bobby wagner 2nd rd 
lavonte david 2nd rd
fred warner 3rd rd
eric kendricks 2nd rd
blake martinez 4th rd
aj johnson (udfa) proj 3rd or 4th
jayon brown 5th rd
deion jones 2nd rd

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-20-2020, 02:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: We need a big-time linebacker.  A high level, versatile, play-making beast of LB.  They don't have to be the 2nd coming of Brian Urlacher or Ray Lewis, but they do need to be much better than what we've had.

How long has it been since we've had a linebacker that fits this description?  More importantly, how long as it been since we've had a well above average LB that we could count on from year to year?

You might want to throw out Burfict's name.  He definitely fit the desciption at times.  The problem with him is he only started 16 games once in his entire career.  His other year he saw the field in every game was his rookie year, where he hadn't quite reached his peak level.  After year 2, here are his games played totals for us: 5, 10, 11, 10, 7.

At times Burfict was elite, and a force.  At other times he was slow, and out of shape.  And most of the time we couldn't count on having him for a full season.

Before him, you have to go all the way back to 2005 to find Odell Thurman.  He has a fantastic rookie campaign with 105 tackles, 5 INT's, and 5 FF's.  Of course, we all know the problem here.  He only played one season.  Such a shame, because he could've and should've been someone we could count on year-in and year-out.

The one player that comes to mind, that I think fits my description, is Takeo Spikes, who played here from '98 to '02.  You have to go back almost 20 years to find an above average LB we've had that was a full-time starter over a stretch of years.

Guys, that's a big problem.

We need to find that guy again.  They don't have to be all-world, just a top 1/3 of the league guy that can make some big plays.

The guys we recently drafted could be decent.  I'm not writing them off or anything like that.  Although, I have way more faith in Logan Wilson to be a legitimate starter than Davis-Geather (dude looks so slow).  But I don't think either of these guys fit my description either.

I hope we either go out and pay a chunck of a change to legitimate FA, or we target a LB early in the 2nd or late in the first (we could trade up).  I know we have a lot of holes, but we continue to run out a garbage LB core year after year.  We need to do better here.

Our pass rush is the biggest problem on this team. If we got great on the D-line it could make guys like Logan Wilson look
like all world LB's. Disagree with you on ADG, he is just raw, great ST'er and is very fast. He just hasn't got up to the speed
of the game as a rookie fast like Wilson has. His instincts just aren't there yet. Also would like to see what we have in Bailey.

Bottom line is we need to stop the run and rush the passer, this starts with the D-line.

But yeah, would be happy if we replaced Bynes with a stud vet LB in FA.

[lone bengal]

I’d put our need for linebacker behind defense line , corner back and offensive line. William Jackson and Alexander are both free agents next season along with Lawson. Linebacker won’t matter if we can’t rush and cover. We also gotta protect the franchise at all costs.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-21-2020, 05:15 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I’d put our need for linebacker behind defense line , corner back and offensive line. William Jackson and Alexander are both free agents next season along with Lawson. Linebacker won’t matter if we can’t rush and cover. We also gotta protect the franchise at all costs.

Agreed, get the D-line badazz, re-sign Alexander at the very least. We have good young Linebackers that will only get better.

[Joelist]

Unless they get rid of Lou and move to an actual, coherent scheme on defense it won't matter who they bring on on DL.

[*bfine32*]

(11-21-2020, 04:28 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: bobby wagner 2nd rd 
lavonte david 2nd rd
fred warner 3rd rd
eric kendricks 2nd rd
blake martinez 4th rd
aj johnson (udfa) proj 3rd or 4th
jayon brown 5th rd
deion jones 2nd rd

The one I always felt like we (and every other team) missed out on was Jaylon Smith. He was a top 5 talent, we needed LB, and drafted 24th that year. 

[Big_Ern]

(11-21-2020, 07:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The one I always felt like we (and every other team) missed out on was Jaylon Smith. He was a top 5 talent, we needed LB, and drafted 24th that year. 

Same with Myles Jack. We, like many others passed on him due to his knee. I think he had microfracture surgery in college

[*bfine32*]

(11-21-2020, 07:47 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Same with Myles Jack. We, like many others passed on him due to his knee. I think he had microfracture surgery in college

Good call on Jack. They actually went in the same draft

[*ochocincos*]

The Bengals have enough Rd 3 LBs and later. The last time the Bengals had a solid-or-better LB from the draft was, I believe, Rey Maualuga?
Burfict doesn't count since he wasn't drafted. From a talent standpoint, he was considered 1st round.

I'd love to get Parsons or Moses in Rd 1 or Surratt or Nick Bolton in Rd 2. I think that would solidify the position.

[fredtoast]

Every member of our 2011 LB corps was taken no later than the 6th pick of the 2nd round.

Manny Lawson....22nd
Thomas Howard..38th
Mauualuga..........38th

[Joelist]

Drafting a LB in the first won't fix Lou's wacky schemes which set LB up to fail...