Taylor/Tobin

[Sled21]

https://stripehype.com/2020/11/23/bengals-zac-taylor-duke-tobin-explain/?fbclid=IwAR2sRYwM9vREqzBJ6_QwtzAZVeqjAymzxz39pvSgt-t2g1J9bGS4eqmkj_c

Quote:Bengals: Zac Taylor catches heat but Duke Tobin has the most to explain
by Hunter Bittinger3 days ago Follow @HunterBittinger

Cincinnati Bengals’ head coach Zac Taylor has taken the majority of the heat for Joe Burrow’s injury but it’s Duke Tobin that has the most to explain.

The finger-pointing has begun in Cincinnati as the Bengals franchise attempts to come to grips with the loss of star quarterback Joe Burrow. In the immediate aftermath of the stomach-churning injury, the offensive line and head coach Zac Taylor were the primary targets of criticism. However, de-facto general manager Duke Tobin has more to explain than either of those parties.

Of course, Taylor and the players in the offensive trenches that subjected Burrow to brutal hit after brutal hit deserve their share of the blame. In particular, Taylor’s scheme that put the rookie signal-caller on track to shatter the pass attempts record for first-year quarterbacks serves as a smoking gun.


But the truth is, all of this could have been avoided prior to the season. The fanbase was practically begging the front office to shore up the offensive line in the months leading up to the 2020 campaign. Instead, Tobin gambled on the development of underwhelming talent.

Whether he meant to or not, Taylor placed some of the blame on Tobin in his press conference following the game,

“All we can do is make progress as the season goes. We gave up a lot of pressures in the beginning of the season. In these last couple of weeks our guys have done a great job of keeping people off Joe… it’s been a revolving door of players that have been doing a great job.”

In some ways, Taylor is right. All he and his coaching staff can do is make progress with the players they have as the season goes on. Duke Tobin provided the players.

It’s not like the state of the offensive line snuck up on Tobin either. The unit has been among the worst in the league since 2016. Inactivity on the free-agent market and poor drafting can be blamed for that.

Taylor has done more to improve the Bengals’ offensive line than Tobin
Tobin led the way for the drafting of early-round offensive linemen busts such as Cedric Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, and Billy Price. Not to mention, the free-agent decisions to allow Andrew Whitworth and Kevin Zeitler to walk.

It was Tobin that gave Taylor no other option than to start Bobby Hart at tackle (for far too long), Michael Jordan at guard, and at times, Alex Redmond.

On the other hand, it was Taylor who was at the helm when the team drafted their only reliable tackle, Jonah Williams. It was Taylor who pushed the franchise out of their free-agent slumber and got them to sign guys like Xavier Su’a-Filo and Quinton Spain.

Tobin got the final say on these decisions, but it’s no coincidence that the correct moves began to be made only once Taylor joined the organization.

Taylor can only do so much with what he’s given. He inherited an offensive line with zero reliable players outside of Trey Hopkins, who, at the time of Taylor’s take over, hadn’t even established himself yet. Since then, he’s put together a significantly better combination but that responsibility shouldn’t have fallen on his shoulders.

Sure, Taylor needs to explain why his play-calling allowed Burrow to be in harm’s way so often. But Tobin needs to offer up an explanation as to why the offensive line hasn’t been fixed in four years and why the front office gambled on inexperience.

Look, there’s plenty of blame to go around. Burrow’s injury doesn’t fall entirely on the shoulders of Tobin, just like it doesn’t fall entirely on the shoulders of Taylor or the offensive line. But if the Bengals are going to ensure that their star quarterback remains healthy in the future, all aspects need to be inspected.

The organization will have every opportunity to make the offensive line situation right this offseason. They have the ability to create cap space and they’re trending towards a top-three pick. The pressure on Tobin and the rest of the front office needs to be turned up several notches to ensure they utilize those resources correctly to protect Joe Burrow.

So does Tobin start catching some heat from the Front Office now?

[HarleyDog]

If not, he should. Also Mike Brown should take a hard look at his failed leadership and just walk away and play rummy with his friends at Denny’s. We need a GM and although Tobin sort of fills that roll, he is not afraid to lose his job. The friggen loyalty bs should stop. Hold everyone accountable, even yourself. Get it done or move on.

[RunKijanaRun]

They can both eat ass.

[Murdock2420]

(11-26-2020, 04:06 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: They can both eat ass.

I'll go get them some spoons.

[Jpoore]

No. When u bring in a coach u listen to that coach’s needs. U make ur own decision but base what u need to do draft wise based partially on what the hc is telling you. Problem is zt can’t separation personal relationships and professional relationships. He hires unqualified guys that were his friends, and then listens to them unquestionably, regardless of what zt thinks the needs are. Turner said we’re good on oline zt believes we’re good etc etc. I like zt but he needs to have someone else hire his supporting staff. Someone that he dosent know.

[HarleyDog]

(11-26-2020, 04:06 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: They can both eat ass.

(11-26-2020, 04:13 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'll go get them some spoons.

Dinner is served.

[Gdale_Bengal]

Let’s fire Jim Turner too.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Tobin is basically part of the Brownburn family at this point. He can catch all the heat in the world, but he’s not going anywhere. Taylor will be the fall guy when they inevitably admit this isn’t working.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

I can't find a single thing wrong in that article.

[Blacknights36]

I think it’s ZT fault alone!!! Front office actually went out of the normal and do nothing to just play it safe. Taylor needs to be fired or at least surrounded with seasoned coaches for Defense and Oline. Get rid of those 2 butt heads

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Since 1968 Mike Brown has been looking for the next Otto Graham and in Joe Burrow he finally found his man. Mike has been quoted as saying once a team finds its franchise quarterback everything else falls into place. Thirty years of no playoff wins proves him wrong.

Last week’s game against Washington further proved this tired old theory to be a stinking lie. Even the best quarterbacks in history needed to be surrounded by those with basic football competence but the Bengals made a mockery of this, placing the worst coached offensive line in front of Joe Burrow and in front of Andy Dalton and Carson Palmer before that. Oh, sure, there were better than average offensive lines in place between 2004-2006 and between 2009-2015 but I remember blood spurting from Carson Palmer’s nose and I remember the scream of pain from Joe Burrow just last week when his knee was twisted and mangled.

The blame falls on four people, each in turn:

1. Jim “Turnstile” Turner, the offensive line coach.
2. Zac Taylor, the coach who hired Jim Turner.
3. Duke Tobin, the guy who hired Zac Taylor.
4. Mike Brown, the guy who keeps Duke Tobin employed.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-27-2020, 01:16 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Since 1968 Mike Brown has been looking for the next Otto Graham and in Joe Burrow he finally found his man.  Mike has been quoted as saying once a team finds its franchise quarterback everything else falls into place.  Thirty years of no playoff wins proves him wrong.

Last week’s game against Washington further proved this tired old theory to be a stinking lie.  Even the best quarterbacks in history needed to be surrounded by those with basic football competence but the Bengals made a mockery of this, placing the worst coached offensive line in front of Joe Burrow and in front of Andy Dalton and Carson Palmer before that.  Oh, sure, there were better than average offensive lines in place between 2004-2006 and between 2009-2015 but I remember blood spurting from Carson Palmer’s nose and I remember the scream of pain from Joe Burrow just last week when his knee was twisted and mangled.

The blame falls on four people, each in turn:  

1. Jim “Turnstile” Turner, the offensive line coach.
2. Zac Taylor, the coach who hired Jim Turner.
3. Duke Tobin, the guy who hired Zac Taylor.
4. Mike Brown, the guy who keeps Duke Tobin employed.

I'd flip that list around. Either way, Duke has survived for over 20 years with the Bengals. When he didn't get fired with ML, he's officially a lifer. There's nothing that will get him fired besides him wanting to leave. Accountability is not a thing with the Bengals. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-26-2020, 04:26 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Dinner is served.

Made me laugh, but ewww...

[HarleyDog]

(11-27-2020, 01:36 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Made me laugh, but ewww...

Yep. Comes with gravy..

[Devils Advocate]

(11-26-2020, 04:18 PM)Jpoore Wrote: No. When u bring in a coach u listen to that coach’s needs. U make ur own decision but base what u need to do draft wise based partially on what the hc is telling you. Problem is zt can’t separation personal relationships and professional relationships. He hires unqualified guys that were his friends, and then listens to them unquestionably, regardless of what zt thinks the needs are. Turner said we’re good on oline zt believes we’re good etc etc. I like zt but he needs to have someone else hire his supporting staff. Someone that he dosent know.

It’s hard to defend anything going on with management at the moment- but let’s be honest- they’ve brought in a few Oline guys so saying anything like (bolded) simply isn’t the truth .. or at least the whole truth. Not trying to call you out but perspective is important.

[fredtoast]

(11-27-2020, 01:32 AM)Wyche Wrote: I can't find a single thing wrong in that article.

Other than the fact Taylor is given credit for drafting Jonah, but Tobin is blamed for drafting all the bad picks.

Or that it gives Taylor credit for signing Su'a-Filo, but no blame for signing John Jerry and Jon Miller.

Or that it blames Tobin for not giving Taylor any choice but to start Jordan, but then ignores the fact that Taylor continued to start Jordan even when he had more options. 

Basically it is just tries to give Taylor credit for anything it sees as good but blame Tobin for anything that did not work out.

[3wt]

(11-27-2020, 01:16 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Since 1968 Mike Brown has been looking for the next Otto Graham and in Joe Burrow he finally found his man.  Mike has been quoted as saying once a team finds its franchise quarterback everything else falls into place.  Thirty years of no playoff wins proves him wrong.

Last week’s game against Washington further proved this tired old theory to be a stinking lie.  Even the best quarterbacks in history needed to be surrounded by those with basic football competence but the Bengals made a mockery of this, placing the worst coached offensive line in front of Joe Burrow and in front of Andy Dalton and Carson Palmer before that.  Oh, sure, there were better than average offensive lines in place between 2004-2006 and between 2009-2015 but I remember blood spurting from Carson Palmer’s nose and I remember the scream of pain from Joe Burrow just last week when his knee was twisted and mangled.

The blame falls on four people, each in turn:  

1. Jim “Turnstile” Turner, the offensive line coach.
2. Zac Taylor, the coach who hired Jim Turner.
3. Duke Tobin, the guy who hired Zac Taylor.
4. Mike Brown, the guy who keeps Duke Tobin employed.

And you need to factor in what ownership (read Troy Blackburn in my mind at this point) allows or "suggests" what Duke and Zach do.

Turner is his own issue and Zac is culpable for that hire.   The recent Jesse article appears to indicate that Turner's biggest issue - besides behavioral - is his tendencies to play favorites.   And apparently that problem extended to Anarumo.

I'm not saying that Dunlap did not contribute to his release here, but losing a player of his caliber was inexcusable.   We already had enough holes to fill.   It also is another indictment by another NFS team of the Bengals team culture.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-27-2020, 01:16 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Since 1968 Mike Brown has been looking for the next Otto Graham and in Joe Burrow he finally found his man.  Mike has been quoted as saying once a team finds its franchise quarterback everything else falls into place.  Thirty years of no playoff wins proves him wrong.

Last week’s game against Washington further proved this tired old theory to be a stinking lie.  Even the best quarterbacks in history needed to be surrounded by those with basic football competence but the Bengals made a mockery of this, placing the worst coached offensive line in front of Joe Burrow and in front of Andy Dalton and Carson Palmer before that.  Oh, sure, there were better than average offensive lines in place between 2004-2006 and between 2009-2015 but I remember blood spurting from Carson Palmer’s nose and I remember the scream of pain from Joe Burrow just last week when his knee was twisted and mangled.

The blame falls on four people, each in turn:  

1. Jim “Turnstile” Turner, the offensive line coach.
2. Zac Taylor, the coach who hired Jim Turner.
3. Duke Tobin, the guy who hired Zac Taylor.
4. Mike Brown, the guy who keeps Duke Tobin employed.

A lot of truth here.

(11-27-2020, 01:27 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I'd flip that list around. Either way, Duke has survived for over 20 years with the Bengals. When he didn't get fired with ML, he's officially a lifer. There's nothing that will get him fired besides him wanting to leave. Accountability is not a thing with the Bengals. 

I agree but we can't fire Mike so.....

(11-27-2020, 03:40 PM)3wt Wrote: And you need to factor in what ownership (read Troy Blackburn in my mind at this point) allows or "suggests" what Duke and Zach do.

Turner is his own issue and Zac is culpable for that hire.   The recent Jesse article appears to indicate that Turner's biggest issue - besides behavioral - is his tendencies to play favorites.   And apparently that problem extended to Anarumo.

I'm not saying that Dunlap did not contribute to his release here, but losing a player of his caliber was inexcusable.   We already had enough holes to fill.   It also is another indictment by another NFS team of the Bengals team culture.

I was pretty pissed at Dunlap when the whole thing was going down. But after some perspective (the toxic culture) I'm now not so angry with him.

The entire bunch needs to be gone from Tobin down to the water boy.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-27-2020, 04:10 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree but we can't fire Mike so.....

No sir, but we cannot fire Duke or Zach, either. Only thing to do is apply institutional pressure to them. Mike does listen to us (although never persuaded), but he does listen. He's most likely not going to step down, but it really doesn't hurt to apply that pressure to them. Nothing lost.

[Wes Mantooth]

The problem with assigning specific blame, especially when you're looking for a singular scapegoat, is that this franchise has no defined roles in the front office.

For years, and years, and years, Mike Brown was the GM. He might still be. He's also the owner. So he might be a logical choice.

But then we've heard it's Katie and Troy who are now running the show. They're handling all of the day-to-day, and Mike only chimes in when he wants to. So maybe they're responsible for this team.

But, not so fast. We've also heard that Duke Tobin is the "defacto GM", and he's pretty much in charge of all player personnel. We've heard he's the one who went to bat for Taylor. So maybe he's ultimately responsible.

Then you've got Zac Taylor. Well, we heard for years that Marvin was essentially the GM, and that he slowly assumed more and more power. He controlled the show, other than butting heads with Mike on a couple of occassions. So maybe Zac Taylor inherited said influence. So maybe he's more resposible than an average coach, as he has a greater role.

Is the owner calling the shots? Is the daughter/son in law calling the shots? Is the director of the scouting department calling the shots? Is the coach calling the shots?

No one knows. You can go to any number of threads and find people claiming different things. Mike is still running the team, Katie is running the team, Duke Tobin is running the team, Marvin ran the team.

How ridiculous is this? This is why you cannot say we have a GM. We have no idea who's ultimately running the show.

They're all to blame, and they're all imcompetent. Not one of them is qualified for their actual positions. Nepotism in the front office, coupled with stubborness and cheapness, has allowed them to build out a complete shit-show from top to bottom.

The entire front office needs to be replaced or relieved from their duties, and someone actually qualified needs to build it out from scratch.