GM Candidates

[MileHighGrowler]

(12-17-2020, 02:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, to an extent.
If you don't get the ultimate decision-making power, it ultimately limits your influence.
For example, I'm sure Duke Tobin gives his input, but he ultimately cannot fire/hire coaches. That falls under Mike Brown.
As such, this could make it more difficult for Tobin to get things done the way he thinks need to go from a coaching perspective.

The best analogy I can think of in regards to Tobin's influence with coaching if coaching doesn't report up through him would be, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." 

I wonder though how many GMs around the league actually have ultimate decision making power?  Most of them are still held by the owner to certain decisions or paths.  Unless you own the team, you're rarely the ultimate decision maker.  Having a voice in the room though is what most people swear up and down no one has with the Bengals outside of The Family, and I guess I just wonder how true that actually is, or how much different it is than other teams.  In other words, how much is semantics and perception vs reality. 

[jj22]

(12-17-2020, 02:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's GM-lite, IIRC.

Tobin's official title is Director of Player Personnel.
As such, his primary responsibility is with what players to add/remove via FA and the draft.

A GM would also be the direct manager for the HC and gets final decision-making power on coaches too.
I believe that Taylor does not report up to Tobin, but rather both he and Tobin report to Mike Brown.
As such, I don't believe Tobin is the decision-maker on what coaches to keep, and therefore does not have all the responsibilities that a true GM has.

Nor does he have the ability (or want to) to add or fire scouts (those who can't seem to find Olineman or Lb's). Modernize the scout(ing) department. He lacks all ambition if he has the power and hasn't done a thing to hold his department accountable, or demand MB grow his area.

So really what does he do? He doesn't work CAP, he has no say in his department's ability to grow, modernize, or be held accountable. I'd argue the draft comes down to coaches and MB for the most part. As does FA as the coaches seem to be influential in that area as well.

A glorified scout is what it looks like he is, and not even a good one given we haven't drafted a probowl player since what 2012?

[*ochocincos*]

(12-17-2020, 04:09 PM)jj22 Wrote: Nor does he have the ability (or want to) to add or fire scouts (those who can't seem to find Olineman or Lb's). Modernize the scout(ing) department. He lacks all ambition if he has the power and hasn't done a thing to hold his department accountable, or demand MB grow his area.

So really what does he do? He doesn't work CAP, he has no say in his department's ability to grow, modernize, or be held accountable. I'd argue the draft comes down to coaches and MB for the most part. As does FA as the coaches seem to be influential in that area as well.

A glorified scout is what it looks like he is, and not even a good one given we haven't drafted a probowl player since what 2012?

He may not have ability to expand the scouting department necessarily because it would require additional payroll that he may not have authority to determine, but he should have the ability to replace the current scouts with new ones (I would think anyway).

I don't know if he would necessarily lack ambition, but he may just put a lot of belief into what he and the scouts have done to bring in quality players.

[jj22]

Have they brought in quality players tho? Sure Boyd, Higgins, Bates (Burrow doesn't count as that was a no brainer).

Should he be happy with no probowlers since 2012?

[*ochocincos*]

(12-17-2020, 05:12 PM)jj22 Wrote: Have they brought in quality players tho? Sure Boyd, Higgins, Bates (Burrow doesn't count as that was a no brainer).

Should he be happy with no probowlers since 2012?

Their wheelhouse lately has been 2nd round. 4 out of 5 have been good picks the past 5 years. Sample is the only who hasn't been noticeably good yet, but he may get there.
The other rounds are mostly injuries and/or bad players.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-17-2020, 05:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Their wheelhouse lately has been 2nd round. 4 out of 5 have been good picks the past 5 years. Sample is the only who hasn't been noticeably good yet, but he may get there.
The other rounds are mostly injuries and/or bad players.

They find guys with a 1st round grade who slip.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-17-2020, 09:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They find guys with a 1st round grade who slip.

I disagree to an extent.
Boyd and Bates never had a 1st round grade.
Higgins sure, but drafting the 1st pick in the 2nd round is basically a 1st rounder.
Sample was deemed a Day 3 pick.
Mixon was deemed 1st round from talent but off-field issues (obviously).

[BengalChris]

(12-06-2020, 11:07 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Marvin took Oggie and Fisher #1 and #2.... who quickly we forget. And he had Paul Alexander as Oline coach forever...

Marvin didn't get to pick his own assistants for a long time. Paul Alexander was on the job before Marvin was hired. It took the Og and Fisher picks to finally get rid of Alexander.

Of course, Turner has done an even worse job of handling the OL.

 

[JSR18]

As, long as y'all are talking theoretically, this is a good thread. However, in reality the only things that may change are on the periphery (coaches, scouts and probably players).

The Bengals franchise belongs to the Brown family and they are going to be the administration and decision makers until there is no more Bengal team.

This is their lively hood. Does anyone really feel that they are going to let outsiders in here to make decisions about their lively hood??

Would you???

[ah5]

(12-16-2020, 11:21 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: Bieniemy? Why? He has the best QB and head coach. He did nothing at Colorado. He has no proven track record of building championship teams at any level. No for me


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Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't understand the hype around bienemy.

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[THE PISTONS]

(12-17-2020, 09:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I disagree to an extent.
Boyd and Bates never had a 1st round grade.
Higgins sure, but drafting the 1st pick in the 2nd round is basically a 1st rounder.
Sample was deemed a Day 3 pick.
Mixon was deemed 1st round from talent but off-field issues (obviously).

There are so many mocks/analysts grading guys...that probably 50-60 guys have a 1st Round grade somewhere. Some guys with 1st Round grades go in the 3rd Round.

Bates was a find. He was a pretty obscure player at Wake Forest. He was good in coverage, but knocks on his tackling.

Mixon...I don't know. Might have got him in the 3rd Round. He's kind of a victim of the team. On a well coached team, he probably rushes for 1300 yards a year.

[HarleyDog]

A hooker workin the truckstop north of Cincy has a better eye at recruiting a good player than Tobin. Hire her. Buckets and sponges and a bobble head doll on fan appreciation day!  

Wait... A chick wearing a bengal jersey bobble head doll? 

[Bronxbengal]

This team isn’t hiring a GM. Having a high Football IQ is part of the Mike Brown genome. We don’t need no stinking GM


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[Wes Mantooth]

(12-19-2020, 02:37 PM)ah5 Wrote: Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't understand the hype around bienemy.

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Here's a few things to consider, in case you weren't aware.  If you don't like the guy, you don't like the guy.  But his "hype" comes from the following:

---He designs a lot of the plays.  I'm not sure how much of them you've seen but they have some of the most creative plays in the game today.  Their playbook is a masterclass in coming up with a scheme and plays that get the most out your weapons.  He and Reid both develop the weekly gameplan.  He's instrumental in how that offense goes.

---Contrary to popular belief, he does call plays at times.  Reid is the primary play caller, but Bienemy does call them at times.  He also the one who communicates directly with Mahomes.

---He's been the person most closely associated with Mahomes development.  It's been stated that since he's arrived, Mahomes spends most of his time with Beinemy throughout the week.  Remember, Mahomes was a project, non-traditional QB coming out.  Bienemy has worked closest with him in that time, and has been a huge part in building up and the scheme around him.

---He's one of the most respected guys in the entire league.  Take the level of respect a name like Zac Taylor carried in 2018 and times it by about 1,000.  I've heard more people go to bat for this guy the last two years than maybe any other potential candidate ever.  Other GM's, his own players, players that don't even play for him, former players, and the media.  I've heard Deshawn Watson speak glowingly, I've hard Deion Sanders speak glowingly.  The list goes on and on.

---He's a player's coach.  This is similar to the last point.  He spends a TON of time with his guys.  Apparently a lot of the have dinners throughout the week, and by all accounts they all love and respect him.  This can go a long way in this league.  This is one of the things Marvin did very well.  With a guy like Eric Bienemy, you don't have to worry about the players not wanting to work with him or respect him.

---Andy Reid's coaching tree.... John Harbaugh, Doug Pederson, Ron Rivera, Sean McDermott.  The first two have won Superbowls.  The third went to a Superbowl, and is in the midst of turning around Washington overnight, and the last has turned around the usually awful Bills, and just secured the AFC East title.  You've still got a ton of others, with at least somewhat respectable jobs:  Brad Childress, Matt Nagy, Leslie Frazier, Todd Bowles.  For whatever reason, Andy Reid produces more qualified candidates than anybody.  His tree makes Belichicks look like a bag of dicks.

---Experience.  The guy has been coaching 20 years now.  He played for a decade in this league.  His involvement in the higher levels of football is almost as long as Zac Taylor's time on this planet.  What no one can say against Bienemy is that he didn't earn this opportunity.  Two decades is a long time to work you way through the college ranks, and the position coaching ranks, and the OC ranks to secure a job.  He's put in the time.  Plus, as a former player, I think he commands a level of respect from his players that some do not.  He's been there, he's lived that life.  Guys respond to that.

[MileHighGrowler]

(12-21-2020, 01:15 PM)kalibengal Wrote: I hear Jared Kushner is looking for a new "Advisor " gig....
Seriously, How long has Tobin been employed by Bengals? Its seems like a lifetime and to see over the yrs  some of the real flop picks that he was part of and that he still is here tells you he ain't goin nowhere.  If it Ogblewie and Fisher werent bad enough, the DIana Ross pick should have sealed his fate. 
The clock is ticking on using the Burrow rookie deal contract and I pray that someone smacks some sense into Mike B that its now or never to make a sea change to the way this team has been operating. There has to be an urgency on this......Maybe that guy is Jared Kushner? LOL 

I don't think it's likely the Bengals fire Tobin.  But Piano Paul was with the team for 23 years and finally was shown the door.  Tobin has been here 21 and while he's certainly entrenched, Alexander being fired shows it can happen.  I really hate the narrative that the Brown family won't fire anyone, and that they refuse to change anything ever.  They move at a painfully glacial pace usually, and they keep players and coaches past the time they should often, but it's not the only way they operate.  So let me sit on a shred on optimism that Tobin and Taylor will be gone, and we'll bring in a duo to replace them.  

And if they didn't, it's still within the realm of possibility they could bring in a guy as an advisor (I'm not going to even remark on the Kushner thing...) to assist whoever is still there.  

There are lots of options, and I'm not going to close the door on any of them being a possibility, even if zero changes are made to the staff this offseason.  I've been a Bengals fan way too long; being optimistic is just part of my DNA and why I come back to the madness year after year! 

[XenoMorph]

(12-21-2020, 02:09 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I don't think it's likely the Bengals fire Tobin.  But Piano Paul was with the team for 23 years and finally was shown the door.  Tobin has been here 21 and while he's certainly entrenched, Alexander being fired shows it can happen.  I really hate the narrative that the Brown family won't fire anyone, and that they refuse to change anything ever.  They move at a painfully glacial pace usually, and they keep players and coaches past the time they should often, but it's not the only way they operate.  So let me sit on a shred on optimism that Tobin and Taylor will be gone, and we'll bring in a duo to replace them.  

And if they didn't, it's still within the realm of possibility they could bring in a guy as an advisor (I'm not going to even remark on the Kushner thing...) to assist whoever is still there.  

There are lots of options, and I'm not going to close the door on any of them being a possibility, even if zero changes are made to the staff this offseason.  I've been a Bengals fan way too long; being optimistic is just part of my DNA and why I come back to the madness year after year! 

will be hard to find someone to take the GM position without the title like duke has been doing for years.

[MileHighGrowler]

(12-21-2020, 02:55 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: will be hard to find someone to take the GM position without the title like duke has been doing for years.

That's just an assumption, though.  Are we really going to say that no one would take his role because it's not the exact title they want on their resume?  The league is small.  If a guy comes in and does a good job, everyone knows what his job was.   This isn't like the public marketplace where the job title on your resume matters for the next gig you go after.  I can see this decision on the ownership and potential candidates coming down to several issues, but title isn't really one of them. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-21-2020, 03:03 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: That's just an assumption, though.  Are we really going to say that no one would take his role because it's not the exact title they want on their resume?  The league is small.  If a guy comes in and does a good job, everyone knows what his job was.   This isn't like the public marketplace where the job title on your resume matters for the next gig you go after.  I can see this decision on the ownership and potential candidates coming down to several issues, but title isn't really one of them. 

I mean, it's more than just a title.

Duke Tobin in no way is a true GM.  And I suspect he's paid accordingly given that fact.

So for someone who wants the role of a GM, and the pay that comes along with it, then his job wouldn't be one they'd be interested in.  Hell, even other guys looking for "Director" jobs may not want it, as it's not a resume builder and the pay still probably isn't great.

The reason we hear the term GM attatched to Duke Tobin is because we don't have one, and a bunch of people have to take on different elements of that job.  He just gets that title because he's more attatched to player side of it.

Now, you're not wrong about the title meaning little.  I suppose we could call the new hire anything we'd like, and they'd take the job, provided the control and money come along with it.  But until that happens, your pool of candidates is potential scouting directors who want some extra input. John Dorsey isn't interviewing for the role of Duke Tobin.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-21-2020, 02:55 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: will be hard to find someone to take the GM position without the title like duke has been doing for years.

Without the title and without the control and responsiblities.  Also without the pay too.

Fwiw, I'd feel pretty confident in betting that Duke Tobin makes under a million a year.  Real GM's, with real responsiblities, make between 2 to 4 million.

[XenoMorph]

(12-21-2020, 03:30 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Without the title and without the control and responsiblities.  Also without the pay too.

Fwiw, I'd feel pretty confident in betting that Duke Tobin makes under a million a year.  Real GM's, with real responsiblities, make between 2 to 4 million.

Im guessing hes well compensated as he was offered interviews with other clubs for a similar role and turned them down without interviewing.