Bobby Hart..

[Gamma Ray Tan]

(12-07-2020, 02:34 AM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: But if they did, we know who'd be first in line. 

Mike is more of a Dollar General guy.

[Whatever]

(12-07-2020, 01:50 AM)Benton Wrote: Jonah aside, I don't see why we couldn't find an upgrade for hart. 

Realistically, we need to upgrade both G spots before we look at Bobby.  Ideally, they take Sewell and either he or Jonah takes over at RT for Hart, but that's dependent on Jonah's health.

[Whatever]

(12-07-2020, 08:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am in no position to defend Hart this season, but I would like to see if anyone has access to objective stats like sacks allowed, etc for 2020.

All the objective stats from 2019 showed that Hart was a well above average pass blocker that would not be easy to replace.  Fans here just continued to hate on him for his 2018 performance.  I remember when Andre Smith was a favorite message board whipping boy even after he started to play at a very high level

From what I see our O-line's biggest failure is picking up stunts and blitzes.  They seem to fail more at assignment than being beaten one-on-one.  Hart and all the rest of them have looked bad this year.  But remember when everyone was gushing about Spain not allowing a sack in years.  Then he comes here and blows an assignment on the play that got Jonah Williams injured.

He has allowed 3 sacks this year, tied for 18th among T's.  Last year, he gave up 6, also tied for 18th.  In '18, he allowed 10, 3rd most in the league.

The guy has meme-wothy terrible snaps every other game, though, like that inexcusably bad whiff yesterday.

[Whatever]

(12-07-2020, 02:34 AM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: But if they did, we know who'd be first in line. 

The 'ol Lumina has plenty of passenger space for when they run that "Buy 2, get 1 free" special.

[sonofstat]

(12-07-2020, 08:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am in no position to defend Hart this season, but I would like to see if anyone has access to objective stats like sacks allowed, etc for 2020.

All the objective stats from 2019 showed that Hart was a well above average pass blocker that would not be easy to replace.  Fans here just continued to hate on him for his 2018 performance.  I remember when Andre Smith was a favorite message board whipping boy even after he started to play at a very high level

From what I see our O-line's biggest failure is picking up stunts and blitzes.  They seem to fail more at assignment than being beaten one-on-one.  Hart and all the rest of them have looked bad this year.  But remember when everyone was gushing about Spain not allowing a sack in years.  Then he comes here and blows an assignment on the play that got Jonah Williams injured.

I don't rate Hart and never have as you said based on previous performance...but i was thinking at half time I will give him some credit as I didn't hear his name at all and it feels like he has been better this year

The right side generally was holding up much better than the left side where Jordan and Williams were just getting beaten - some of that was not just missing assignments.

Then Hart, Spain had that miscommunication and let a guy have a clear run on the QB and from that point on it just fell apart.

It feels so broken despite them trying different combo's, bringing/drafting different players so that has to be on Turner primarily.

[Whatever]

(12-07-2020, 01:27 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Keep Hart around why ? He's very, very, easily upgraded upon this offseason.

I wouldn't say easily. He can definitely be upgraded on, but an appreciable upgrade in FA is going to be well north of $10 mil.  I would prioritize both G spots and possibly C over T in FA. If things go as expected, Sewell will be our pick, but I wouldn't cut ties with Hart until I knew Jonah was 100% and might keep him for depth or trade him for a team that desperately needs a T before the deadline.  What I wouldn't do is cut him before FA starts and hope Jonah recovers as expected.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-07-2020, 10:34 AM)Whatever Wrote: He has allowed 3 sacks this year, tied for 18th among T's.  Last year, he gave up 6, also tied for 18th.  In '18, he allowed 10, 3rd most in the league.

The guy has meme-wothy terrible snaps every other game, though, like that inexcusably bad whiff yesterday.

That’s with missing how many games? His numbers would be even worse had he been playing the entire time. Especially against the Steelers.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-07-2020, 08:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: All the objective stats from 2019 showed that Hart was a well above average pass blocker that would not be easy to replace.  Fans here just continued to hate on him for his 2018 performance. 

No they didn't, Fred. 

Some fans actually watch the games and could see for themselves he wasn't well above average last year.  Not even close.

You've admitted you don't watch the team much and listen to Hoard and Lap on ESPN Radio.  So you rely on stats to tell you a story.  The problem with that is they don't tell anywhere close to the whole story.

Bobby Hart was still a below average starting tackle last year.  Period. 

You can't just look at sacks allowed without looking at pressure allowed.  You can't ignore ill-timed penaties or blown plays.  And most importantly, you can't ignore run blocking.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-06-2020, 11:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, after watching Hart attempting to block, looking as if he were high AF and just blocking air space while the defender almost thanks him as he passes to the inside, anyone still think that he's worth keeping around?  

I mean, I've read some arguments against drafting Sewell, but it's hard to overlook the performance of a guy that the management thought so highly of, that they gave him a $21M contract extension.

More to the bigger point, time for Mike, Katie and Co. to just admit that they can't put a team together, and just turn it over to an actual GM.

Ya know....prior to the injury, he was playing pretty decent ball. Yesterday looked like the Bobby Hart we've all come to know and loathe.... 

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2020, 12:01 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Bobby Hart was still a below average starting tackle last year.  Period. 

You can't just look at sacks allowed without looking at pressure allowed.  You can't ignore ill-timed penaties or blown plays.  

No he wasn't.

People keep bragging about their "eye ball test" yet they can never say how many sacks or pressures he has allowed.

But if you are interested in "pressures" he is the stat from PFF

Pass Blocking Efficiency

The PFF "Pass Blocking Efficiency" rating measures pressure allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks allowed.

At 50% of max pass blocks (753)

Hart was 28th out of 58 with a 96.7 efficiency



I have also posted stats that take into account holding calls (which some people who do statistical analysis consider the same as a sack) plus sacks allowed and again Hart was near the top.


Also ProFootball outsiders keeps a stat called "blown blocks" and again Hart was closer to the top than the bottom.



Since you are so proud of your "eyeball test" then give me the top ten most efficient OTs in the league and the 10 worst.  Then tell me exactly where Hart ranks.


The truth is that fans see what they want to see with their "eyeball test".  They see when Hart misses a block but they have no idea how many blocks he misses compared to all other tackles in the league.





PERIOD.

[Gdale_Bengal]

He should be renamed to Bobby shart because that play where he just turned to the side and let that defender walk past him untouched has made him earn that name

[Essex Johnson]

(12-06-2020, 11:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, after watching Hart attempting to block, looking as if he were high AF and just blocking air space while the defender almost thanks him as he passes to the inside, anyone still think that he's worth keeping around?  

I mean, I've read some arguments against drafting Sewell, but it's hard to overlook the performance of a guy that the management thought so highly of, that they gave him a $21M contract extension.

More to the bigger point, time for Mike, Katie and Co. to just admit that they can't put a team together, and just turn it over to an actual GM.

Hart is below average but sadly he still had a better PFF than most of our lineman and  he was still over average in PFF for the NFL that also tells you the state of tackles in the NFL. this also leads to the point that we need more than Sewell and the idea of trading down and picking of two lineman tackle/guard in 1st round is very tempting with so many holes

[Nicomo Cosca]

“I am in no position to defend Hart this season” ~fredtoast

*Proceeds to defend Bobby Hart for multiple pages*

[Whatever]

(12-07-2020, 11:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s with missing how many games? His numbers would be even worse had he been playing the entire time. Especially against the Steelers.

He's played 95%+ snaps in 9 games this year, so he basically allows a sack every 3 games, equating to 5.3 over the course of a full season.  That falls in line with the 6 he allowed last year.  He would hypothetically have allowed 4 based on games missed by this point.

That's the rub with him.  He's not good,but he's good enough that a journeyman FA or day 2 pick isn't going to come in and outplay him.  Even most 1st round T's are actually worse as rookies.  

[BenZoo2]

(12-07-2020, 12:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: “I am in no position to defend Hart this season” ~fredtoast

*Proceeds to defend Bobby Hart for multiple pages*

Lol. And this surprises you how?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2020, 12:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: “I am in no position to defend Hart this season” ~fredtoast

*Proceeds to defend Bobby Hart for multiple pages*

And what have I said about his play this season?

All I was pointing out was that his play last year was not near as bad as many people here claim.  And that is 100% true.  He won't be that easy to replace because lots of other teams have starting OTs that were worse than him last year.

[ElkValleyBengal]

I'd at least tinker with the idea of moving Hart inside.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-07-2020, 01:27 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Keep Hart around why ? He's very, very, easily upgraded upon this offseason.

Actually he still is playing better than other tackles in his price range and we have worse lineman on interior maybe we move him inside and clean house with some guards.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(12-07-2020, 01:54 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: I'd at least tinker with the idea of moving Hart inside.

That thought had crossed my mind too. Jonah's injury makes it a lot harder to try before the end of the year. My fear would be that he'd play there once against a weak D-line with no interior push and do okay so they'd think they solved the problem - sort of like what happened with Fred Johnson at T last year.