Is it all ZT?

[THE Bigzoman]

It comes down to what you think of the roster.

If you think Green, Dunlap, our draft picks, and others are at least average, then it’s on Taylor.

I think Green has more on the tank. D coordinators still pay attention to him. Dunlaps stats in Seattle are much better than they were here. Tee Higgins is good. Etc.

I think it’s more on the coaching

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 01:31 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: It comes down to what you think of the roster.

If you think Green, Dunlap, our draft picks, and others are at least average, then it’s on Taylor.

I think Green has more on the tank. D coordinators still pay attention to him. Dunlaps stats in Seattle are much better than they were here. Tee Higgins is good. Etc.

I think it’s more on the coaching

Boyd too. Boyd, Higgins, Green, Tate, and Ross are better than a lot of wr groups.

Ross is a bust...but I feel like they could have used him somehow was a 4/5 wr.

Mixon and Bernard ar rb. We cant run the ball. Basically lowest ypc in the league.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(12-12-2020, 01:31 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: It comes down to what you think of the roster.

If you think Green, Dunlap, our draft picks, and others are at least average, then it’s on Taylor.

I think Green has more on the tank. D coordinators still pay attention to him. Dunlaps stats in Seattle are much better than they were here. Tee Higgins is good. Etc.

I think it’s more on the coaching

I agree with your perspective in the sense that it depends on what you think of the roster. 

I just disagree with what you think of the roster. I disagree about AJ and Dunlap but i'll leave that for another thread. 

I look at the fact that we have guys like Xavier Williams and Christian Covington playing starter snaps on the DL. They aren't even backups on most competitive NFL defenses, let alone starters. I look at how frequently whatever starter we've had in opposite WJII has been routinely exploited. I look at the fact that our best linebackers really are rookies - I think Wilson and ADG will be studs next year, but that's next year. 

I do place the blame for our comically bad OL somewhat on the coaches. At least in the sense of Turner's inability to develop Jordan, and then refusal to remove him from the lineup until now. But in general we have very few OL who would start anywhere else in the league (Jonah maybe but he's in and out of the lineup w/ injuries, and Hopkins might start for some other teams but he has taken a step backward since signing his deal). I do want Turner fired. 

Yes, Tee has worked out. But that's the thing - your top outside WR is a rookie. We went into the season thinking our #1 was AJ, and tried to force feed him the ball those first two weeks. We quickly pivoted out of that stance in favor of Tee. Good move, and done quickly which was nice to see, but might it have changed some of those early games if we'd known AJ was washed up? Maybe. And now we know, hence it's a correctable error. 

I think we're transitioning out of the "old core" Marvin-era guys and building a whole "new core" around Burrow, Tee, Bates, Logan Wilson, etc, and it's bound to be a painful transition. The biggest mistake we've made is trying to hold onto the old while transitioning to the new, and that is on both the coaches and front office. But it need not be a permanent error. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 02:38 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I agree with your perspective in the sense that it depends on what you think of the roster. 

I just disagree with what you think of the roster. I disagree about AJ and Dunlap but i'll leave that for another thread. 

I look at the fact that we have guys like Xavier Williams and Christian Covington playing starter snaps on the DL. They aren't even backups on most competitive NFL defenses, let alone starters. I look at how frequently whatever starter we've had in opposite WJII has been routinely exploited. I look at the fact that our best linebackers really are rookies - I think Wilson and ADG will be studs next year, but that's next year. 

I do place the blame for our comically bad OL somewhat on the coaches. At least in the sense of Turner's inability to develop Jordan, and then refusal to remove him from the lineup until now. But in general we have very few OL who would start anywhere else in the league (Jonah maybe but he's in and out of the lineup w/ injuries, and Hopkins might start for some other teams but he has taken a step backward since signing his deal). I do want Turner fired. 

Yes, Tee has worked out. But that's the thing - your top outside WR is a rookie. We went into the season thinking our #1 was AJ, and tried to force feed him the ball those first two weeks. We quickly pivoted out of that stance in favor of Tee. Good move, and done quickly which was nice to see, but might it have changed some of those early games if we'd known AJ was washed up? Maybe. And now we know, hence it's a correctable error. 

I think we're transitioning out of the "old core" Marvin-era guys and building a whole "new core" around Burrow, Tee, Bates, Logan Wilson, etc, and it's bound to be a painful transition. The biggest mistake we've made is trying to hold onto the old while transitioning to the new, and that is on both the coaches and front office. But it need not be a permanent error. 

Besides AJ, Geno, and Dunlap...what other Marvin guys are here?

They added 8 new starting caliber guys this off season that are healthy. You're kidding yourself if you think other coaches couldnt win with this team.

And by 'old'...those guys are like 31. Its not like they're 36 and washed up. Dunlap is producing in Seattle.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(12-12-2020, 04:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Besides AJ, Geno, and Dunlap...what other Marvin guys are here?

They added 8 new starting caliber guys this off season that are healthy. You're kidding yourself if you think other coaches couldnt win with this team.

And by 'old'...those guys are like 31. Its not like they're 36 and washed up. Dunlap is producing in Seattle.

I'm mostly talking about those three guys plus Shawn Williams, but the point is that they're the cap space hogs. So minus them you're looking at a lot of players who haven't yet earned big second contracts. The number of them is less important their cap hits. 

We did NOT bring in 8 new starters who stayed healthy. Let's count them. Josh Bynes. Vonn Bell. Ok, I'm done. You might say Mackenzie Alexander, but he's in in and out of the lineup. Even if I grant him it's 3. If you're talking about rookies, well all of our opponents have a rookie class too. And the point is a competitive roster doesn't have to rely on rookies to contribute right away. That fact that we had to stick our rookies in there reflects the dire state of the roster, not how much talent we've added to it. 

Sure Geno and AJ are in their early 30s, but some guys hit the wall at that age. You never know when it'll happen. I'll be shocked if they go on to other clubs and return to their old forms. If there was any way to prove it i'd wager that AJ being moved down the pecking order after week 2 had more to do with those GPS speed tracking thingies they wear in practice. Didn't have that data in camp because of his hammy. Two weeks into the season we had enough data to say he's lost a step. Then they make Tee the #1 (along w/ Boyd). 

Dunlap is complicated. Suffice it to say, he loafed so much he could've started a bakery. What would you have said if we kept in a veteran who was clearly loafing during a losing streak? Everybody would've said the coaches won't play young players in deference to vets even if they loaf. So they benched him to light a fire under his ass, and he moped about it and forced a trade. That is the *opposite* of responding to adversity that they preach all the time. Maybe the trade lit a fire under his ass. Maybe he plays harder for Seattle because they're winning (some players may not put it all on the line for a losing team because then losing hurts worse). Or maybe, as I suspect, he was "the man" under Marvin, and when the coaches told him hey, we're changing the defense and you need to play a new role, he just didn't like not being the man anymore. He quit on us. I mean Carl Lawson is having a career year, so how is it the coaches? You can lead a horse to water but you can't always make them drink. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 04:56 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I'm mostly talking about those three guys plus Shawn Williams, but the point is that they're the cap space hogs. So minus them you're looking at a lot of players who haven't yet earned big second contracts. The number of them is less important their cap hits. 

We did NOT bring in 8 new starters who stayed healthy. Let's count them. Josh Bynes. Vonn Bell. Ok, I'm done. You might say Mackenzie Alexander, but he's in in and out of the lineup. Even if I grant him it's 3. If you're talking about rookies, well all of our opponents have a rookie class too. And the point is a competitive roster doesn't have to rely on rookies to contribute right away. That fact that we had to stick our rookies in there reflects the dire state of the roster, not how much talent we've added to it. 

Sure Geno and AJ are in their early 30s, but some guys hit the wall at that age. You never know when it'll happen. I'll be shocked if they go on to other clubs and return to their old forms. If there was any way to prove it i'd wager that AJ being moved down the pecking order after week 2 had more to do with those GPS speed tracking thingies they wear in practice. Didn't have that data in camp because of his hammy. Two weeks into the season we had enough data to say he's lost a step. Then they make Tee the #1 (along w/ Boyd). 

Dunlap is complicated. Suffice it to say, he loafed so much he could've started a bakery. What would you have said if we kept in a veteran who was clearly loafing during a losing streak? Everybody would've said the coaches won't play young players in deference to vets even if they loaf. So they benched him to light a fire under his ass, and he moped about it and forced a trade. That is the *opposite* of responding to adversity that they preach all the time. Maybe the trade lit a fire under his ass. Maybe he plays harder for Seattle because they're winning (some players may not put it all on the line for a losing team because then losing hurts worse). Or maybe, as I suspect, he was "the man" under Marvin, and when the coaches told him hey, we're changing the defense and you need to play a new role, he just didn't like not being the man anymore. He quit on us. I mean Carl Lawson is having a career year, so how is it the coaches? You can lead a horse to water but you can't always make them drink. 

Burrow is new from last year. Jonah. Green. Higgins. Spain.

Then, Bynes, Alexander, Bell. That's 8! Only 22 starters. And I'm not even counting guys like Reader that played some.

Reader played and didnt really make a difference.

Lawaons career year...you credit the coaches? He has 4.5 sacks and we have the worst pass rush in the NFL. Way to go coaches!

It's amazing how the 2-3 Zac fanboys spin things!

[kalibengal]

Seeing that any likely LEGIT new coach would not be interested in this job the way things are....the only way to get true, quality football people join is to get rid of Tobin and get a GM with "skins on the wall" as Marv used to say and go from there. Having Burrow also helps.
ZT is done....its so fricking obvious at this point .

[THE Bigzoman]

(12-12-2020, 02:38 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I agree with your perspective in the sense that it depends on what you think of the roster. 

I just disagree with what you think of the roster. I disagree about AJ and Dunlap but i'll leave that for another thread. 

I look at the fact that we have guys like Xavier Williams and Christian Covington playing starter snaps on the DL. They aren't even backups on most competitive NFL defenses, let alone starters. I look at how frequently whatever starter we've had in opposite WJII has been routinely exploited. I look at the fact that our best linebackers really are rookies - I think Wilson and ADG will be studs next year, but that's next year. 

I do place the blame for our comically bad OL somewhat on the coaches. At least in the sense of Turner's inability to develop Jordan, and then refusal to remove him from the lineup until now. But in general we have very few OL who would start anywhere else in the league (Jonah maybe but he's in and out of the lineup w/ injuries, and Hopkins might start for some other teams but he has taken a step backward since signing his deal). I do want Turner fired. 

Yes, Tee has worked out. But that's the thing - your top outside WR is a rookie. We went into the season thinking our #1 was AJ, and tried to force feed him the ball those first two weeks. We quickly pivoted out of that stance in favor of Tee. Good move, and done quickly which was nice to see, but might it have changed some of those early games if we'd known AJ was washed up? Maybe. And now we know, hence it's a correctable error. 

I think we're transitioning out of the "old core" Marvin-era guys and building a whole "new core" around Burrow, Tee, Bates, Logan Wilson, etc, and it's bound to be a painful transition. The biggest mistake we've made is trying to hold onto the old while transitioning to the new, and that is on both the coaches and front office. But it need not be a permanent error. 

Sure, we’re not loaded with talent. But we had a QB who played well enough for us to win several, if not most games. Our receiver depth is damn good. RB is set. DE could’ve been much better with a happy
Carlos. Corners were off and on, but Bates and Bell are damn good. Had a veteran in Shawn Williams. TE was looking damn good before Uzomah went down, and unlike what many people say, Sample is not a bum.

We have too much talent on this roster to not net any additional games year over year. A competent staff could’ve had us at a much better spot by now.

Say what you want about the FO, but they tried to field
A better product this year by spending unprecedented amounts.

I’ve seen enough from Taylor. I’d take Lewis back at this point,
Because an elite QB maybe is more likely to be able to mask his deficiencies than Taylor’s.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Bengals have been the worst offense in the NFL since Burrow went down https://t.co/JBm3guBF5M

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) December 11, 2020

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[BengalChris]

(12-11-2020, 01:00 PM)kalibengal Wrote: see link on ZT and past bengals coaches....begs the question: If Bengals had the legit infrastructure in place (GM, scouts etc) would we
want " Zack Back" as that ROMAN ED commercial dad says.
If ML lands a new gig next yr and starts tearing it up thats going to be painful....

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2020/12/11/22167799/zac-taylor-coaching-tenure-bengals-front-office-ownership-mike-brown

Is it all ZT?

No, but 80% certainly is.

1. He selected his assistants, so everything they do is on him, 100%.
2. He's the HC, so player improvement, development, schemes, play calling, etc are 100% his.
3. He's the play caller who is very one dimensional, which is 100% on him.
4. There's the sucky front office effect, which he's been unable to overcome. Marvin did much better with this same front office. It's difficult to win with this front office, as evidenced by only one HC being able to win since Mike Brown inherited the team and named himself GM.

Bottom line is that ZT is pretty bad at the things he can control.

Marvin did better. A lot better. The difference is the coaching staff.

 

[Passepartout]

Yeah as really the offense without Burrow sadly are playing little league football. That even a little league team could defeat them.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(12-12-2020, 05:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Burrow is new from last year. Jonah. Green. Higgins. Spain.

Then, Bynes, Alexander, Bell. That's 8! Only 22 starters. And I'm not even counting guys like Reader that played some.

Reader played and didnt really make a difference.

Lawaons career year...you credit the coaches? He has 4.5 sacks and we have the worst pass rush in the NFL. Way to go coaches!

It's amazing how the 2-3 Zac fanboys spin things!

You can't count rookies. That's like saying other teams didn't add rookies too. Getting better than we were last year is irrelevant. We need to get better than our opponents got better from last year. So don't count our rookies and not other teams' rookies. 

I'll give you Jonah, but like Alexander he's been in and out of the lineup. 

Spain is a guy we picked up midseason out of desperation, and had been cut by the Bills. It was out of desperation. If you're going to make the argument that we added all this talent, at least name good players. Spain isn't good. 

You can't count Green as a positive addition either... because he's being paid 18M for virtually nothing. Right now, he's a subtraction, because of what his money could otherwise be used for. You see, to make the argument you're making those new starters have to be positive starters, and if they're not you need to show how it's the coaches doing. I don't buy that... in Green's case they tried to force him the ball the first two weeks. 

Lawson gained a starting job (frankly he was better than Dunlap) and would have many more sacks if we had any interior presence. We don't because Reader went down and Geno is shot. I'd bet he at least double that if Reader was healthy and Geno was the player he used to be. 

Reader wasn't bad either - don't take PFF as gospel. 

And calling me a Zac fanboy - I mean, are you twelve years old? Jesus, man. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 10:05 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: You can't count rookies. That's like saying other teams didn't add rookies too. Getting better than we were last year is irrelevant. We need to get better than our opponents got better from last year. So don't count our rookies and not other teams' rookies. 

I'll give you Jonah, but like Alexander he's been in and out of the lineup. 

Spain is a guy we picked up midseason out of desperation, and had been cut by the Bills. It was out of desperation. If you're going to make the argument that we added all this talent, at least name good players. Spain isn't good. 

You can't count Green as a positive addition either... because he's being paid 18M for virtually nothing. Right now, he's a subtraction, because of what his money could otherwise be used for. You see, to make the argument you're making those new starters have to be positive starters, and if they're not you need to show how it's the coaches doing. I don't buy that... in Green's case they tried to force him the ball the first two weeks. 

Lawson gained a starting job (frankly he was better than Dunlap) and would have many more sacks if we had any interior presence. We don't because Reader went down and Geno is shot. I'd bet he at least double that if Reader was healthy and Geno was the player he used to be. 

Reader wasn't bad either - don't take PFF as gospel. 

And calling me a Zac fanboy - I mean, are you twelve years old? Jesus, man. 

That's silly. Rookies count as talent added. We added Burrow who had a historic college year. No other team added that.

You moved the target bigtime saying Jonah and Alexander have been in and out of the lineup. Jonah just got hurt. Alexander has played most games.

You will never get even 90% health from a team. Guys miss games on every team.

Re: Green - Its funny he cant be counted as an addition because he was the main excuse used for Zacs bad year 1.

It's pointless to debate this further. Fans that make excuses for subpar performance are a big part of why a bad product is on the field. If you want a coach that wins 4.5 games in 2 years. Great! If you want to believe Zacs used car salesman pitch that we're close. Great!

I'd suggest you watch some games that the Bengals arent playing in to see how other teams do things.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 10:05 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: You can't count rookies. That's like saying other teams didn't add rookies too. Getting better than we were last year is irrelevant. We need to get better than our opponents got better from last year. So don't count our rookies and not other teams' rookies. 

I'll give you Jonah, but like Alexander he's been in and out of the lineup. 

Spain is a guy we picked up midseason out of desperation, and had been cut by the Bills. It was out of desperation. If you're going to make the argument that we added all this talent, at least name good players. Spain isn't good. 

You can't count Green as a positive addition either... because he's being paid 18M for virtually nothing. Right now, he's a subtraction, because of what his money could otherwise be used for. You see, to make the argument you're making those new starters have to be positive starters, and if they're not you need to show how it's the coaches doing. I don't buy that... in Green's case they tried to force him the ball the first two weeks. 

Lawson gained a starting job (frankly he was better than Dunlap) and would have many more sacks if we had any interior presence. We don't because Reader went down and Geno is shot. I'd bet he at least double that if Reader was healthy and Geno was the player he used to be. 

Reader wasn't bad either - don't take PFF as gospel. 

And calling me a Zac fanboy - I mean, are you twelve years old? Jesus, man. 

And Reader is not a pass rusher. He's a run stuffer. He wouldnt impact the pass rush.

I'll ask you what I asked the other guy...Why do you care so much that they keep Zac? Do you think if Tomlin and his staff coached this team that they'd have 2.5 wins?

[BengalChris]

(12-12-2020, 10:05 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: You can't count rookies. That's like saying other teams didn't add rookies too. Getting better than we were last year is irrelevant. We need to get better than our opponents got better from last year. So don't count our rookies and not other teams' rookies. 

I'll give you Jonah, but like Alexander he's been in and out of the lineup. 

Spain is a guy we picked up midseason out of desperation, and had been cut by the Bills. It was out of desperation. If you're going to make the argument that we added all this talent, at least name good players. Spain isn't good. 

You can't count Green as a positive addition either... because he's being paid 18M for virtually nothing. Right now, he's a subtraction, because of what his money could otherwise be used for. You see, to make the argument you're making those new starters have to be positive starters, and if they're not you need to show how it's the coaches doing. I don't buy that... in Green's case they tried to force him the ball the first two weeks. 

Lawson gained a starting job (frankly he was better than Dunlap) and would have many more sacks if we had any interior presence. We don't because Reader went down and Geno is shot. I'd bet he at least double that if Reader was healthy and Geno was the player he used to be. 

Reader wasn't bad either - don't take PFF as gospel. 

And calling me a Zac fanboy - I mean, are you twelve years old? Jesus, man. 

Well, since the team hasn't gotten any better, when compared to winning a championship or even improving over their last year's team record failure, then all we can really say is that they didn't improve in spite of all the words coming out of mouths that probably ought to be bussing tables at Wendy's.

Steelers in 2019 were 8-8 with Ben on IR. This season they're 11-1, a marked improvement and their rookies are helping them this season. The Browns were 6-10 in 2019. They are 9-3 in 2020 and have a much better coach the Bengals do. The Ravens were 14-2 in 2019 and have fallen back to 7-5 this season, but significantly better than the Bengals.

The simple fact is that the Bengals made the moves they made on their own choice and they haven't improved. Other teams have. And that's the bottom line.

 

[Older Than You Too]

It is Zac-Tard mixed with Turner and Anarumo. The "Front office" doesn't help.

We will always be behind the 8-ball with the Browns and Blackburns, but we still must compete.

Maybe Kate's daughter is competent. Talent may have to skip two generations. Perhaps she marries a Reid.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-12-2020, 11:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Taylor, Shula, Coslett, and Lebeau all failed miserably under this ownership team.

Marvin atleast took the team to respectability.

Maybe under different ownership, he would have thrived?

Marvin also had the benefit of being around during the creation of the rookie wage scale.  Previous coaches and teams could be killed financially with a massively overpaid first round pick that they were essentially stuck with and the Bengals had lots of them.  Now teams can make a bad first round pick and get out after a couple years...even a really high pick.  

It was one of the best decisions made in recent decades in the NFL but make no mistake that KILLED the Bengals in the 90s and early 2000s.