10 Things I Think I Know

[Wes Mantooth]

1.) No one draft pick alone is going to fix our problems, or is a guarantee. (Don't get too hung up on Sewell if we miss out)

2.) No one knows if Zac Taylor saved his job Monday Night. Until the Browns/Blackburns speak it's all speculation at this point.

3.) We need OL help in Free Agency regardless if we draft Sewell. You can love the idea of XSF and Spain starting, or you can dismiss big dollar free agency. But we still, at the very least, need QUALITY and PROVEN depth.

4.) We can't count on Joe Burrow being back to form right away. Even with an earliest recovery of 9 months, that still means a lot of missed offseason activities (OTA's, Minicamps, offseason throwing with receivers, part of training camp) I'm not saying this to say it can't happen, I'm saying this to say it's not a guarantee.

5.) WJIII needs to walk unless he commands less than 8 mil per. We have two much invested in Waynes, and we already have a great safety combo of Bates and Bell. Pouring that much money into the secondary is overkill. Save the cash for free agency and for Bates next season. WJIII can be a very good corner at times, but he can also be extremely frustating. He's not a playermaker either. Hasn't developed as well as I would have liked. There's better uses of money.

6.) Carl Lawson is a MUST sign. We've developed a nice player here. We need to get better at rushing the passer. Losing him makes us worse. You can't preach about developing in house and keeping players and then letting guys like this walk. Don't do to him what you did to Zeitler.

7.) Geno, Bobby Hart, Gio and CJ Uzomah are all must cuts if they're not willing to restructure their contracts. I'll expend on this more if anyone thinks it really needs an explanation. (I don't think it does)

8.) Alex Erikson CANNOT be resigned. He just can't.

9.) Lou Aranumo is a better DC than Zac is an OC. I've seen a lot of people say that removing him would be a great start to fixing what ails this team. Now, I'm not opposed to replacing him, but I think the offensive playcalling and scheme is a much more pressing matter. The entire offsense needs overhauled, and we need a competent OC to do it. This dink and dunk pass game, lack of identity and terrible Red Zone offense isn't going to cut it.

10.) This board would be a much better place if we all just realized that everybody wants the same thing (for the Bengals to be successful). We may disagree on how to get there, but just remember the person you're debating only wants to see the team be as good as they possibly can.

PS I hope everyone here has a great holiday.

PPS Christmas Vacation > Home Alone And it's not even close

[Nicomo Cosca]

Rep

Great post, Wes. Can’t argue with a single thing you said.

[XenoMorph]

For #9. If nothing else they can bring in an OC.

[*bengalfan74*]

Good post and agree with all.

[*pally*]

(12-23-2020, 01:42 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: For #9. If nothing else they can bring in an OC.

or let Brian Callahan do the job he was hired to do

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

Quote:Losing him makes us worse. You can't preach about developing in house and keeping players and then letting guys like this walk. Don't do to him what you did to Zeitler.

This is all true about Lawson, but I don't see why it doesn't apply to WJIII either.

I'm not enamored with that Waynes contract but I think it's a false economy to pass on paying WJIII $8m+ a year because of it. A second or third tier starting CB in FA will still likely cost $5m on a one year deal so your saving less than you're paying Shawn Williams to sit on the bench this year whilst not actually solving the problem long term and making the team weaker. Really the only way to save money without weakening the D at the position is to draft early but that opportunity cost of that will be significant.

I know everyone complained about that Dre Kirkpatrick contract but cutting him didn't actually save money as we ended up paying his replacement that and more. Whether that was an upgrade remains to be seen but WJIII is a better corner than Dre. If we don't re-sign him this D will be weaker as a result.

[Clark W Griswold]

I agree that they need to sign Lawson and let Jackson walk if he’s too expensive.
The question I have is will Waynes, Alexander, Phillips and maybe a rookie or cheaper FA be good enough at CB? I think Sims needs to go unless he’s just a ST or practice squad player.

[Gdale_Bengal]

I said 5 and 6 in another thread. Choose between the 2, Lawson wins almost every time.

What happened to WJ3 Monday night pretty much sealed the deal. He’s had like 3 ints his whole career, which does not make him top 5 money which is what he will want in FA. He is a good corner.

Can anyone run the numbers on how the defense has played the last half of the season? Us there significant improvement or is it still the same?

[Gdale_Bengal]

(12-23-2020, 02:42 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: I agree that they need to sign Lawson and let Jackson walk if he’s too expensive.
The question I have is will Waynes, Alexander, Phillips and maybe a rookie or cheaper FA be good enough at CB? I think Sims needs to go unless he’s just a ST or practice squad player.

We get a better pass rush and the secondary improves tremendously.

[Wire22Wire]

(12-23-2020, 01:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) No one draft pick alone is going to fix our problems, or is a guarantee. (Don't get too hung up on Sewell if we miss out)

2.) No one knows if Zac Taylor saved his job Monday Night.  Until the Browns/Blackburns speak it's all speculation at this point.

3.) We need OL help in Free Agency regardless if we draft Sewell.  You can love the idea of XSF and Spain starting, or you can dismiss big dollar free agency.  But we still, at the very least, need QUALITY and PROVEN depth.

4.) We can't count on Joe Burrow being back to form right away.  Even with an earliest recovery of 9 months, that still means a lot of missed offseason activities (OTA's, Minicamps, offseason throwing with receivers, part of training camp)  I'm not saying this to say it can't happen, I'm saying this to say it's not a guarantee.  

5.) WJIII needs to walk unless he commands less than 8 mil per.  We have two much invested in Waynes, and we already have a great safety combo of Bates and Bell.  Pouring that much money into the secondary is overkill.  Save the cash for free agency and for Bates next season.  WJIII can be a very good corner at times, but he can also be extremely frustating.  He's not a playermaker either.  Hasn't developed as well as I would have liked.  There's better uses of money.

6.) Carl Lawson is a MUST sign.  We've developed a nice player here.  We need to get better at rushing the passer.  Losing him makes us worse.  You can't preach about developing in house and keeping players and then letting guys like this walk.  Don't do to him what you did to Zeitler.

7.) Geno, Bobby Hart, Gio and CJ Uzomah are all must cuts if they're not willing to restructure their contracts.  I'll expend on this more if anyone thinks it really needs an explanation. (I don't think it does)

8.) Alex Erikson CANNOT be resigned.  He just can't.

9.) Lou Aranumo is a better DC than Zac is an OC.  I've seen a lot of people say that removing him would be a great start to fixing what ails this team.  Now, I'm not opposed to replacing him, but I think the offensive playcalling and scheme is a much more pressing matter.  The entire offsense needs overhauled, and we need a competent OC to do it.  This dink and dunk pass game, lack of identity and terrible Red Zone offense isn't going to cut it.

10.) This board would be a much better place if we all just realized that everybody wants the same thing (for the Bengals to be successful).  We may disagree on how to get there, but just remember the person you're debating only wants to see the team be as good as they possibly can.

PS I hope everyone here has a great holiday.

PPS Christmas Vacation > Home Alone And it's not even close

Merry Christmas too. 

All pts valid

But, dont you see what happens on this board?

One game, we beat pitt.  Gio.  There were posts immediately after saying we need to keep him, and he's so valuable, etc

He had one average game.  

How can a bottom 5 team in the NFL justify having the 7th and 17th highest paid RBs in the nFL?  The answer is of course, they cant. 

But, our fans are so reactive, amateur  and short sided, they blow their loads when their pants zipper gets touched. 

[wildcatnku24]

I agree with most of what you've said. Well done!

My only differing opinion is with William Jackson. I think he's a beast. Even that PI call was pretty soft in my opinion. I think it would be amazing to see WJAX and Trae on the boundaries with Alexander in the slot.

[Nicomo Cosca]

If re-signing WJ3 prevents us from extending Bates that would be a disaster.

[*bfine32*]

(12-23-2020, 01:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) No one draft pick alone is going to fix our problems, or is a guarantee. (Don't get too hung up on Sewell if we miss out)

2.) No one knows if Zac Taylor saved his job Monday Night.  Until the Browns/Blackburns speak it's all speculation at this point.

3.) We need OL help in Free Agency regardless if we draft Sewell.  You can love the idea of XSF and Spain starting, or you can dismiss big dollar free agency.  But we still, at the very least, need QUALITY and PROVEN depth.

4.) We can't count on Joe Burrow being back to form right away.  Even with an earliest recovery of 9 months, that still means a lot of missed offseason activities (OTA's, Minicamps, offseason throwing with receivers, part of training camp)  I'm not saying this to say it can't happen, I'm saying this to say it's not a guarantee.  

5.) WJIII needs to walk unless he commands less than 8 mil per.  We have two much invested in Waynes, and we already have a great safety combo of Bates and Bell.  Pouring that much money into the secondary is overkill.  Save the cash for free agency and for Bates next season.  WJIII can be a very good corner at times, but he can also be extremely frustating.  He's not a playermaker either.  Hasn't developed as well as I would have liked.  There's better uses of money.

6.) Carl Lawson is a MUST sign.  We've developed a nice player here.  We need to get better at rushing the passer.  Losing him makes us worse.  You can't preach about developing in house and keeping players and then letting guys like this walk.  Don't do to him what you did to Zeitler.

7.) Geno, Bobby Hart, Gio and CJ Uzomah are all must cuts if they're not willing to restructure their contracts.  I'll expend on this more if anyone thinks it really needs an explanation. (I don't think it does)

8.) Alex Erikson CANNOT be resigned.  He just can't.

9.) Lou Aranumo is a better DC than Zac is an OC.  I've seen a lot of people say that removing him would be a great start to fixing what ails this team.  Now, I'm not opposed to replacing him, but I think the offensive playcalling and scheme is a much more pressing matter.  The entire offsense needs overhauled, and we need a competent OC to do it.  This dink and dunk pass game, lack of identity and terrible Red Zone offense isn't going to cut it.

10.) This board would be a much better place if we all just realized that everybody wants the same thing (for the Bengals to be successful).  We may disagree on how to get there, but just remember the person you're debating only wants to see the team be as good as they possibly can.

PS I hope everyone here has a great holiday.

PPS Christmas Vacation > Home Alone And it's not even close

But the greatest of all is Diehard. 

[XenoMorph]

(12-23-2020, 03:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But the greatest of all is Diehard. 

It is known

[Devils Advocate]

(12-23-2020, 02:34 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: This is all true about Lawson, but I don't see why it doesn't apply to WJIII either.

I'm not enamored with that Waynes contract but I think it's a false economy to pass on paying WJIII $8m+ a year because of it. A second or third tier starting CB in FA will still likely cost $5m on a one year deal so your saving less than you're paying Shawn Williams to sit on the bench this year whilst not actually solving the problem long term and making the team weaker. Really the only way to save money without weakening the D at the position is to draft early but that opportunity cost of that will be significant.

I know everyone complained about that Dre Kirkpatrick contract but cutting him didn't actually save money as we ended up paying his replacement that and more. Whether that was an upgrade remains to be seen but WJIII is a better corner than Dre. If we don't re-sign him this D will be weaker as a result.

Darius Phillips.

Idk what he makes- money wise ... but I do know he makes plays. It’s possible to get him for several years on the cheap(er) side of things.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-23-2020, 02:34 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: This is all true about Lawson, but I don't see why it doesn't apply to WJIII either.

That's fair.  As I was writing it I knew that it might sound it unequal or that it was applying that logic to one player and not the other.

Here's the thing though, I don't really think WJIII has completely lived up to his draft position or where we expected him to be.  He had a great year a couple years ago, and a down year last season.  I'd say this season has been a mixed bag.  He's looked very good at times, but not so great other times.

His strong suit is man coverage, but he's weak in zone.  He doesn't make big plays.  He can be inconsistent.  These are my gripes.

Lawson fills a position we have to have.  We've developed a mid round player into an above average starter.  Where we're at now with him is pretty much an ideal scenario as far development is concerned.  He's paying off.

The problem with WJII is not only the money you have to commited to Waynes (16 mil) and Bell (6 mil), it's that you have Bates coming right around the corner.  He's going to be due a big contract, and that contract could very well get worked this offseason, as he's going into his final year.

So let's just say we lock up WJII over my maximum 8 mil I floated.  Let's put him at a nice even 10 just for discussion's sake.  You'd have 32 million commited to Waynes, WJIII and Bell in 2021, with Bates still needing a new deal.  How much are you willing to invest in your secondary?

Bates is currently looking at a raise of 10-13 million (fwiw, 14 mil is the going rate for top safties).  At that point, with a WJIII signing, you're talking 42-45 million dollars invested into two CB's and 2 safties.  That's almost 1/4 of a salary cap.

The easy answer some may float is that we just get out of Waynes contract after 2021.  He'll still carry 5 million in dead cap with an early out.  And are we even sure that WJIII is better than Waynes?  If he is, then why didn't we give him the new deal last year and pass on Waynes?

The question is, is WJIII so good that we can't afford to move on?  I just don't think he is.  Pair Waynes with a corner like we did with Leon Hall, PacMan Jones.  A cheaper vet.  We cannot afford to pay out so much to corners when we need OL help, DL help, another WR, another LB, and preferbably a TE.

To each their own...

[CorpusChristiBengal]

Agree with all, Anarumo is the fall guy too much, he is a fine, serviceable NFL level DC and that's more than I can say for a lot of our coaching staff. Insider journalists have also implied that Zac's seat was hotter than previously thought, at least more than national media and fans think.

PS: The Ref/Hostile Hostages is sooooooo underrated as a Christmas movie.

[kalibengal]

(12-23-2020, 01:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) No one draft pick alone is going to fix our problems, or is a guarantee. (Don't get too hung up on Sewell if we miss out)

2.) No one knows if Zac Taylor saved his job Monday Night.  Until the Browns/Blackburns speak it's all speculation at this point.

3.) We need OL help in Free Agency regardless if we draft Sewell.  You can love the idea of XSF and Spain starting, or you can dismiss big dollar free agency.  But we still, at the very least, need QUALITY and PROVEN depth.

4.) We can't count on Joe Burrow being back to form right away.  Even with an earliest recovery of 9 months, that still means a lot of missed offseason activities (OTA's, Minicamps, offseason throwing with receivers, part of training camp)  I'm not saying this to say it can't happen, I'm saying this to say it's not a guarantee.  

5.) WJIII needs to walk unless he commands less than 8 mil per.  We have two much invested in Waynes, and we already have a great safety combo of Bates and Bell.  Pouring that much money into the secondary is overkill.  Save the cash for free agency and for Bates next season.  WJIII can be a very good corner at times, but he can also be extremely frustating.  He's not a playermaker either.  Hasn't developed as well as I would have liked.  There's better uses of money.

6.) Carl Lawson is a MUST sign.  We've developed a nice player here.  We need to get better at rushing the passer.  Losing him makes us worse.  You can't preach about developing in house and keeping players and then letting guys like this walk.  Don't do to him what you did to Zeitler.

7.) Geno, Bobby Hart, Gio and CJ Uzomah are all must cuts if they're not willing to restructure their contracts.  I'll expend on this more if anyone thinks it really needs an explanation. (I don't think it does)

8.) Alex Erikson CANNOT be resigned.  He just can't.

9.) Lou Aranumo is a better DC than Zac is an OC.  I've seen a lot of people say that removing him would be a great start to fixing what ails this team.  Now, I'm not opposed to replacing him, but I think the offensive playcalling and scheme is a much more pressing matter.  The entire offsense needs overhauled, and we need a competent OC to do it.  This dink and dunk pass game, lack of identity and terrible Red Zone offense isn't going to cut it.

10.) This board would be a much better place if we all just realized that everybody wants the same thing (for the Bengals to be successful).  We may disagree on how to get there, but just remember the person you're debating only wants to see the team be as good as they possibly can.

PS I hope everyone here has a great holiday.

PPS Christmas Vacation > Home Alone And it's not even close

Agree with all of it and another addition on #4: Get a proven back up QB that can start the season if needed and maybe get a few wins in the bag before Joe returns on his white horse.... is that guy Winston?
 Happy Holidays!

[MileHighGrowler]

(12-23-2020, 04:27 PM)CorpusChristiBengal Wrote: Agree with all, Anarumo is the fall guy too much, he is a fine, serviceable NFL level DC and that's more than I can say for a lot of our coaching staff. Insider journalists have also implied that Zac's seat was hotter than previously thought, at least more than national media and fans think.

PS: The Ref/Hostile Hostages is sooooooo underrated as a Christmas movie.

I don't know that saying Lou is a better DC than Zac is an OC is really saying that Lou is a "fine, serviceable NFL level DC."  I think it speaks more to how atrocious Zac has been as an OC.  

[XenoMorph]

(12-23-2020, 04:45 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I don't know that saying Lou is a better DC than Zac is an OC is really saying that Lou is a "fine, serviceable NFL level DC."  I think it speaks more to how atrocious Zac has been as an OC.  

both have had flashes... Defense has been more consistent it seems