What have we learned in the past few weeks?

[SuperBowlBound!]

(12-28-2020, 09:49 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Mixon is a better blocker than he gets credit for. He’s not as good as Gio, but few are.

This one against the Steelers was particularly impressive.

https://youtu.be/NpI53fu_fxQ

I didn't say he could not block as that was a good block. I am saying it is not a strong part of his game.
Probably why he is not a 3 down back most of the time.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-28-2020, 07:23 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote:  
Bernard ($4.1 mil) + CJ (5 mil) + Hart (5.9 mill)  = Scherff (15 mil) or Shaq Barrett ($15.8 mil) or Trent Williams (13.2 mil) or Joe Thuney (14.7 mil) 
                                                                    

It's easy to say "Let's get rid of 3 major role players on the team, and use the money to get one superstar.".  However, what you've effectively done is created two holes on the roster, while only improving one.

[CanadianBengal]

(12-29-2020, 09:08 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's easy to say "Let's get rid of 3 major role players on the team, and use the money to get one superstar.".  However, what you've effectively done is created two holes on the roster, while only improving one.

I like Gio as a third down back and CJ is a good second TE. Hart would be fine as a back up tackle. My point is not at those salaries. Bengals have a number of good players who I believe would be even better if they had a couple of difference makers playing beside them. I think if Geno was playing at a level he did a few years ago, Lawson and Hubbard would have more sacks/pressures and the secondary would not be as exposed. Or if the O Line had Sewell and Thuney/Scherff then Burrows, Boyd Higgens and Mixon would all be better.

I think this team needs a couple of impact players. 

Sample gives you what CJ does and Perine has been a serviceable back up RB at a fraction of the cost. Obviously the team is better off having good veteran back-ups but in a salary cap league you want to make sure that you can still afford a few elite players.

[THE PISTONS]

I feel like hopefully the biggest takeaway from the coaches is that a more balanced offense works better than throwing it 60+ times. In 3 of the games we won this year, we had an adequate to good running game.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-30-2020, 10:17 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I feel like hopefully the biggest takeaway from the coaches is that a more balanced offense works better than throwing it 60+ times. In 3 of the games we won this year, we had an adequate to good running game.

I kind of feel like what led to throwing 50+ times/game was an inability to run the ball.  Due to lack of adequate interior OL, they literally got no push, and compounding the problem was defenses were also easily able to rush the passer straight up the gut, as well.

So, maybe the real take here is that Interior Offensive Line matters?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-30-2020, 10:22 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I kind of feel like what led to throwing 50+ times/game was an inability to run the ball.  Due to lack of adequate interior OL, they literally got no push, and compounding the problem was defenses were also easily able to rush the passer straight up the gut, as well.

So, maybe the real take here is that Interior Offensive Line matters?

It's hard to say. XSF and Spain have graded out really poorly run blocking. I think we're just running more so you pop one here and there.

Aside from the Finley sneaks, we didn't run that well against the Steelers. I think you gotta just stick with running it.

Dropping back in a 5 wide set with no RB and chucking it 50-60 times just isn't going to produce a ton of wins.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-30-2020, 10:34 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's hard to say. XSF and Spain have graded out really poorly run blocking. I think we're just running more so you pop one here and there.

Aside from the Finley sneaks, we didn't run that well against the Steelers. I think you gotta just stick with running it.

Dropping back in a 5 wide set with no RB and chucking it 50-60 times just isn't going to produce a ton of wins.

I'd really like to see what constitutes the run grading for PFF.  Seems like some really decent run blocking games were graded rather poorly.  I think they really overlook a lot of quality plays for one penalty or blown assignment.  For example, the game that Billy Price was at Center, and most of us viewed him as run blocking very well, but his grad was poor for that game.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-30-2020, 10:22 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I kind of feel like what led to throwing 50+ times/game was an inability to run the ball.  Due to lack of adequate interior OL, they literally got no push, and compounding the problem was defenses were also easily able to rush the passer straight up the gut, as well.

So, maybe the real take here is that Interior Offensive Line matters?

Absolutely it does. And I'm in no way sold our current group is the answer either ? Are we better now than the first half of season ? Sure we are

But when you're the worst interior Oline in the league and then you come up to ok, take caution in confusing that with good. In other words I still hope they address the Oline heavily in free agency and the draft.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-30-2020, 10:46 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'd really like to see what constitutes the run grading for PFF.  Seems like some really decent run blocking games were graded rather poorly.  I think they really overlook a lot of quality plays for one penalty or blown assignment.  For example, the game that Billy Price was at Center, and most of us viewed him as run blocking very well, but his grad was poor for that game.

Wasn’t it his pass blocking that knocked his grade down? Think it was an 18 iirc lol. That was the game with the play where he just stood there and made no effort to block anyone while Burrow was running around evading like 4-5 guys. Even our ex-QB J.T. O’Sullivan killed Price for that one.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-30-2020, 11:57 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wasn’t it his pass blocking that knocked his grade down? Think it was an 18 iirc lol. That was the game with the play where he just stood there and made no effort to block anyone while Burrow was running around evading like 4-5 guys. Even our ex-QB J.T. O’Sullivan killed Price for that one.

I thought he also had a holding penalty on a big run play?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-30-2020, 12:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I thought he also had a holding penalty on a big run play?

Not sure.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-30-2020, 12:27 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not sure.

And, as I recall, many decided it was a rather tick-tack call, as it appeared to be not very flagrant and away from the play.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-30-2020, 12:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, as I recall, many decided it was a rather tick-tack call, as it appeared to be not very flagrant and away from the play.

I believe I remember it and thought it was pretty weak.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-27-2020, 11:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The biggest, most obvious thing to me is that in spite of some speculation, the team has not quit on the coaching staff.  Perhaps a little heat from media and personalities on social media may have inspired some rethinking on the part of the staff, or not.  Whatever the case, weather it be a collective gathering of professional pride on part of the players, or the coaching staff taking an introspective look and making some necessary changes, it seems to be working.

I'm sure that it must be reassuring to Joe Burrow to see the team double down and solidify their resolve while he is rehabbing.  Some may call these latest two wins "meaningless", but I guarantee that they mean a hell of a lot to every man who wears the striped helmet.  How nice will it be to get Joe back, and have a team that believes in itself for Joe to come back to?

What I think I know:

Brandon Allen deserves a secure deal to remain as Joe's backup going forward.

With XSF at LG and Spain at RG, the interior of the OL has seemed to stop the bleeding.  Teams can no longer pass rush up the gut at will, and we seem to be getting better push in the run game.  I hope that they sign Spain to a 3 year deal, and keep him around until the next permanent Guard of the future is drafted and properly developed.  I still think they need a bona fide stud at Tackle, either to pair with Williams, or assume his spot should he never achieve full greatness.  Missing 75% of his games due to injury in his first two years is a bit concerning to me.  That is partly why I have been such a die hard on the Penei Sewell bandwagon.

Our backup RBs are pretty good.  We all knew what Gio Bernard was capable of, when used properly.  Samaje Perine has shown to be worth keeping around, as well.  Not the quickest out of the gate, but dude has a second gear when in open territory.  Given a crease, those massive thighs just keep churning, not bad hands either.

Tee Higgins is for real, he will be a modest to medium star in this league. Boyd is going to continue to be Boyd: steady, dependable, not one for the defense to sleep on.  AJ Green looked like absolute dog shit to start the year.  However, in the past month or so, he's gotten his rhythm back on, and is looking much like his old self.  Part of me would like to see him signed to a modest 3 year deal, and retire as a Bengal.  (He may be looking for one last huge payday)  After that, WR gets a bit murky.  Erickson looked clutch a few times today, but typically he's a non factor.  Would like to see an over the top, role player WR signed in free agency, while a mid round pick is drafted and developed to complete the game day 5.

Drew Sample is NOT a bum, and he indeed CAN find the end zone, as was proven today.     Yes, we need another TE, NO I don't feel like we need to take Kyle Pitts with our top pick.  This team doesn't utilize the TE position nearly enough to justify ignoring fundamental position group NEEDS in favor of a shiny, new weapon.

On defense:

Too much to cram into this post.  We can discuss that one in another thread.

I agree with a great deal of what you said here, but here are a couple things I think I know in relation to the things you think you know...

XSF and Spain have been solid, and we can't say that they are playing lackluster defenses after holding pittsburgh's front in check (although there were only 7 pass attempts, and run blocking has not been the issue as much as pass blocking).  However, I don't want average to below average.  I want a line that allows Joe to be Joe.  I want a line that allows for better balance with the rushing attack.  I want COMPETITION at those guard positions.  I would hope for a FA like Thuney, although I most likely won't get it.  I surely want to see a draft pick like Deonte Brown from Bama, and I love the RT from Minnesota (Faalele) that is (get this) 6'8" and 400 lbs.  He is a mammoth man (obviously) that could be groomed to start behind Bobby Hart.  Adeniji and Faalele give the Bengals excellent quality depth at the tackle position.  If Sewell is gone, I think Jonah and Faalele give the Bengals a really good starting pair of tackles.  Brown and Thuney would be incredible for the guard spot, but if they don't make a move for Thuney, I hope Brown gets the RG spot and Spain the LG spot.  I think if Spain had an entire offseason and camp to work that one position that he could be a really good find.

You nailed the RB and WR position.  If Sewell is gone, I hope they can either trade back a bit for an extra pick or get Ja'marr Chase.  I love that kid.  Pure alpha dog on the field.  I love Higgins but we need a true #1 to make the offense become truly lethal.  Chase would do so much for the offense.  One guy that probably won't be there in the fifth round but I have had him mocked there several times is Anthony Scwartz from Auburn.  Dude has Ross-like speed with good hands and durability.  He was used all over in Gus's high school offense.  He would be a great piece for ZT to have for jet sweeps, screens, slants, and can also track the deep ball very well.  He gets a cushion from every DB that doesn't want to end up a vapor trail.  Plus, he would allow me to say cheesy things like "Use the Schwartz!"  or "May the Schwartz be with you".  He is still pretty raw as true NFL WR route tree would go, but he wouldn't be counted on right away and could be a nice piece to bring along. 

Sample is grading out almost exactly where CJ has for his career (about 60).  He has proven himself to be a reliable chain mover, but he has become an above average blocker and that is where the Bengals utilize him the most.  Those little screen passes he took for 10 yards a pop the second Cleveland game are there for the taking when teams blitz, and he showed really good route running and hands.  I wish we saw more of him and fewer incompletions to AJ Green, but nonetheless....People hating on Sample and comparing him to the best TEs in the land should look at the blocking grades for guys like Kelce.  Below a 50.  Guys like Kelce are one-dimensional receivers taking advantage of defenses so scared of their outside WRs that he gets a lot of room to roam.  He is a fantastic route runner and receiver, don't get me wrong, but having Sample help block as much as he does yet be capable to keep a defense honest and move the chains is just fine for his first real year of getting some quality snaps.  

In summary, where I want upgrades/competition for this offense is at RT, RG, LG, and WR.  Having the QB set is a HUGE deal moving forward.  If the Bengals went WR, DT, OT, G  in the first four rounds then look for some unconventional help as outside pass rushers (why aren't we looking at ADG here?  It is his best attribute, and if that guy is 230 lbs than I must be over 300 because that guy isn't small.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-27-2020, 11:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This.

I also really wish people would stop with the “shiny new toy” stuff. It’s a very outdated way to look at the game. Yes the trenches will always be important, but so are good weapons. The league is completely geared towards offense now, and it’s best to have as many good ones as you can. Just look at KC. They had the best QB, the best TE, one of the best WR’s (certainly one of the fastest), but they still went out and got a Sammy Watkins, and just used a 1st round pick on a RB.

This team will go as far as Joe Burrow can take them. They should give him every possible advantage.

If you want to use KC as the measuring stick, you need to ask yourself how successful Mahommes and Kelce would be without Hill and their other blazing outside WR (that plays over Watkins) aren't creating instant separation and taking the top off the defense so Kelce can work underneath.  Kelce is a heck of a receiver, but a below average blocker.  They have a really good offensive line, too.

If you look at them, what is the thing the Bengals miss the most in that offense?  I would say it is the vertical threat that can generate quick separation.  Hill gives Mahommes a deep threat, but also a screen receiver or dumpoff on a blitz that moves the sticks.  I would rather have a WR like Chase than a TE like Pitts.  We don't need another body that can get open and has good hands in the middle, we need the piece that opens up everything in the middle.  Chase does that more than Pitts.  

And while we are quick to hammer Sample for being taken middle second round, he is grading out around 60, which includes an above average blocking grade and he usually catches the ball and moves the chains just fine when he is targeted.  It isn't his fault that he is largely asked to stay in and block. 

[Sled21]

(12-30-2020, 12:59 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: If you want to use KC as the measuring stick, you need to ask yourself how successful Mahommes and Kelce would be without Hill and their other blazing outside WR (that plays over Watkins) aren't creating instant separation and taking the top off the defense so Kelce can work underneath.  Kelce is a heck of a receiver, but a below average blocker.  They have a really good offensive line, too.

If you look at them, what is the thing the Bengals miss the most in that offense?  I would say it is the vertical threat that can generate quick separation.  Hill gives Mahommes a deep threat, but also a screen receiver or dumpoff on a blitz that moves the sticks.  I would rather have a WR like Chase than a TE like Pitts.  We don't need another body that can get open and has good hands in the middle, we need the piece that opens up everything in the middle.  Chase does that more than Pitts.  

And while we are quick to hammer Sample for being taken middle second round, he is grading out around 60, which includes an above average blocking grade and he usually catches the ball and moves the chains just fine when he is targeted.  It isn't his fault that he is largely asked to stay in and block. 

Isn't his blocking the reason they jumped to get him? They knew they needed a good Blocking TE because of our o line.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-28-2020, 12:19 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Also, it’s amazing how much better the line has got without awful LG play. They’ve went from abysmal to serviceable. Will be interested to see how they fair next week vs Ratbirds. Texans d-line was plagued by injuries. Steelers we relied on defense playing insane and Ben looking like he’s 80 years old. Let’s see how they do next week

Yes, this will be a must-win for the Ratbirds, and it would be a very good test of the offensive line.  Putting up yards and scores on a weak Texans team doesn't impress me.  Do that against the Rats....I honestly think the Bengals could have won this game if not for losing WJIII.  If Sims is out there, it is easy money for the rats.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-28-2020, 01:59 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Yup, heard that same stat.

To me he isn't a guy you cut, he is a guy you find more ways to get involved in the game plan.

Plus, his blitz pick-up as a RB is best on this team by far.

I have been saying this for the last couple years:  STOP giving Gio just third downs.  Have Mixon (who has improved his blitz pickup) and Gio alternate series.  Maybe two for Mixon and then one for Gio and keep rotating that design.  Too damn predictable when Gio is in the game what he is going to do, and the same for Mixon.  Why the HELL do we have our $12 million dollar RB come OFF the field on third down when he is very well known for his excellent receiving skills?  

A pure rotation by series solves this.  The BIGGEST issue I had with Marv and it CONTINUED with ZT!  Puke.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-28-2020, 12:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: Not playing a washed up running QB helps too....

I mean, seriously?  34 yards passing?  I think he played well in to the third quarter, too.  Awful.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-30-2020, 12:59 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: If you want to use KC as the measuring stick, you need to ask yourself how successful Mahommes and Kelce would be without Hill and their other blazing outside WR (that plays over Watkins) aren't creating instant separation and taking the top off the defense so Kelce can work underneath.  Kelce is a heck of a receiver, but a below average blocker.  They have a really good offensive line, too.

If you look at them, what is the thing the Bengals miss the most in that offense?  I would say it is the vertical threat that can generate quick separation.  Hill gives Mahommes a deep threat, but also a screen receiver or dumpoff on a blitz that moves the sticks.  I would rather have a WR like Chase than a TE like Pitts.  We don't need another body that can get open and has good hands in the middle, we need the piece that opens up everything in the middle.  Chase does that more than Pitts.  

And while we are quick to hammer Sample for being taken middle second round, he is grading out around 60, which includes an above average blocking grade and he usually catches the ball and moves the chains just fine when he is targeted.  It isn't his fault that he is largely asked to stay in and block. 

Hey I’m all for taking Chase. I’d be super happy with him or Pitts.

I disagree Kelce is a below average blocker though.

Heading into Sunday's win over the Carolina Panthers, Kelce's name was atop the leaderboards in several other statistical categories. He led all tight ends with at least 200 snaps played in Pro Football Focus' grades for run blocking (79.5), receiving (89.6), and overall offense (90.3), putting up better grades than he ever has. His level of play isn't just elite — it's all-time great.

One of the main points of the George Kittle/Kelce debate for the game's best tight end was centered around run blocking. Kittle received rave reviews for his prowess in that area, while Kelce's quality performances were overlooked. Now, with the 49ers' best offensive player being banged up for most of this season and the Chiefs' leading receiver taking his game to another level, that conversation is over. With that, a new one should begin. It's time to give Kelce his flowers while he's still playing at such an exceptional level.

https://www.si.com/nfl/chiefs/.amp/gm-report/footenotes-travis-kelce-somehow-deserving-more-credit