Recent history says keeping Zac is a mistake

[*ochocincos*]

Injuries are a factor, but at some point, the team needs to produce without relying on all key players being healthy.

[Murdock2420]

(12-31-2020, 06:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Some coaches are good at the start. Cowher, 11-5 his 1st year. Stefanski year 1, 10-5.

You're just using wishful thinking because Zac is TERRIBLE. If he came in and had 8-9 wins...I doubt you'd be saying how coaches improve.

Did Dave Shula improve over time? He must be a HOF coach now?

I wasn't defending Zac... read the entire reply. It wasn't that long.

To say coaches don't improve is either stupidity or ignorance is my point.

These guys by your logic suck as coaches and should never have been allowed to coach again

Jack Pardee - brutal first year as a head coach with the Bears. Then got a second job where he went .500 in 3 years with Washington. Finally he went to Houston and went to the playoffs four straight times. 

Bill Walsh - First year 2-14. Second year 6-10. Third year, Super Bowl... but coaches don't get better.....

Bill Belichick was 36–44 with the Browns and fired before going to New England and becoming the hoodie.

Pete Carroll looked bad with the Jets, now in Seattle he has a Super Bowl.

Lou Holtz went 3-10 with the Jets... pretty sure he isn't a bad coach.

There was another coach named Saban, went 6-10 with Miami.... I think he is actually a good coach now though....


I'm not saying Zac is the answer or is magically going to turn into Walsh and take this team to the playoffs but you have to be a trolling if you say coaches can't improve over time, like every other profession on the planet.

[Destro]

Some bad NFL coaches also start as bad NFL coaches and remain who they are.

[Murdock2420]

(12-31-2020, 06:41 PM)Destro Wrote: Some bad NFL coaches also start as bad NFL coaches and remain who they are.

Yes they do.

Some coaches are terrible from the start and stay terrible.

This is a Mike Brown owned team which means, we will do things differently than pretty much every other NFL franchise. 

So option A, be down and have no hope that Zac improves which means, that 2021 is a lost season already. 

Or 

Option B, hope like hell that he follows a path of improvement and the team does better in 2021.

Why would anyone be on the side of option A and still be here posting?

[SuperBowlBound!]

(12-31-2020, 06:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I wasn't defending Zac... read the entire reply. It wasn't that long.

To say coaches don't improve is either stupidity or ignorance is my point.

These guys by your logic suck as coaches and should never have been allowed to coach again

Jack Pardee - brutal first year as a head coach with the Bears. Then got a second job where he went .500 in 3 years with Washington. Finally he went to Houston and went to the playoffs four straight times. 

Bill Walsh - First year 2-14. Second year 6-10. Third year, Super Bowl... but coaches don't get better.....

Bill Belichick was 36–44 with the Browns and fired before going to New England and becoming the hoodie.

Pete Carroll looked bad with the Jets, now in Seattle he has a Super Bowl.

Lou Holtz went 3-10 with the Jets... pretty sure he isn't a bad coach.

There was another coach named Saban, went 6-10 with Miami.... I think he is actually a good coach now though....


I'm not saying Zac is the answer or is magically going to turn into Walsh and take this team to the playoffs but you have to be a trolling if you say coaches can't improve over time, like every other profession on the planet.

I think everyone would agree that people get better at almost every profession with time.

Walsh won the Super Bowl in year 3 partly because he became a better coach but I bet more importantly he was able to sign FA's, trade for players and have good draft picks to get into that position. In other words he was allowed to finish what they hired him for. Imagine if his second year was under a pandemic and his team was as injured as our team. They fire him resulting in us probably winning 2 Super Bowls.
It is interesting to note his first year of coaching was Montana first year. The 1979 49ers were the only team in NFL history to lose 12 games in which they held a lead.

[Murdock2420]

(12-31-2020, 07:05 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: I think everyone would agree that people get better at almost every profession with time.

Walsh won the Super Bowl in year 3 partly because he became a better coach but I bet more importantly he was able to sign FA's, trade for players and have good draft picks to get into that position. In other words he was allowed to finish what they hired him for. Imagine if his second year was under a pandemic and his team was as injured as our team. They fire him resulting in us probably winning 2 Super Bowls.

The poster I was replying to does not believe that.

A coach is what he is from the start. Bad coach is always bad, good coach was good from their first game coached. It's an unbelievable mentality.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-31-2020, 06:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I wasn't defending Zac... read the entire reply. It wasn't that long.

To say coaches don't improve is either stupidity or ignorance is my point.

These guys by your logic suck as coaches and should never have been allowed to coach again

Jack Pardee - brutal first year as a head coach with the Bears. Then got a second job where he went .500 in 3 years with Washington. Finally he went to Houston and went to the playoffs four straight times. 

Bill Walsh - First year 2-14. Second year 6-10. Third year, Super Bowl... but coaches don't get better.....

Bill Belichick was 36–44 with the Browns and fired before going to New England and becoming the hoodie.

Pete Carroll looked bad with the Jets, now in Seattle he has a Super Bowl.

Lou Holtz went 3-10 with the Jets... pretty sure he isn't a bad coach.

There was another coach named Saban, went 6-10 with Miami.... I think he is actually a good coach now though....


I'm not saying Zac is the answer or is magically going to turn into Walsh and take this team to the playoffs but you have to be a trolling if you say coaches can't improve over time, like every other profession on the planet.

Coaches can improve. It's no guarantee. I dont see anyone here capable of mentoring Zac. He seems pretty set in his ways absent the front office threatening to fire him.

There was a post earlier where someone alluded to a year 3 leap with coaches, which is ridiculous.

If you give a coach enough years and resources, the team should start to win. 8-8 isnt that hard.

Dave Shula never got better.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-31-2020, 07:08 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The poster I was replying to does not believe that.

A coach is what he is from the start. Bad coach is always bad, good coach was good from their first game coached. It's an unbelievable mentality.

You're obviously a Zac fanboy. 4 of you on here now. What a club!

Coaches can improve, but as holic noted in other threads, most coaches that start as bad as Zac dont make it to year 3 and the ones that do get fired then.

The first issue Zac has is he doesnt think he needs to change.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(12-31-2020, 07:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You're obviously a Zac fanboy. 4 of you on here now. What a club!

Coaches can improve, but as holic noted in other threads, most coaches that start as bad as Zac dont make it to year 3 and the ones that do get fired then.

The first issue Zac has is he doesnt think he needs to change.

It is not as much Zac fanboy as much as I think it is only fair to give hime his chance. Even under normal circumstances this was never going to be a 2 year turnaround. With Covid it probably will be a 3 to 4 year turnaround. I am willing to let it play out. Did you actually expect a coach to takeover this disaster and turn it around in 2 years? I hope not.

[Rubekahn29]

ZT was likely being retained no matter what. Might as well enjoy some wins while he is here.

[*jason*]

(12-31-2020, 08:16 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: It is not as much Zac fanboy as much as I think it is only fair to give hime his chance. Even under normal circumstances this was never going to be a 2 year turnaround. With Covid it probably will be a 3 to 4 year turnaround. I am willing to let it play out. Did you actually expect a coach to takeover this disaster and turn it around in 2 years? I hope not.

I keep hearing this... What SPECIFICALLY is hindering this from being a 2 year turnaround?.... What EXACTLY is it about the Rona that is also holding Zac Taylor back?

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-31-2020, 08:16 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: It is not as much Zac fanboy as much as I think it is only fair to give hime his chance. Even under normal circumstances this was never going to be a 2 year turnaround. With Covid it probably will be a 3 to 4 year turnaround. I am willing to let it play out. Did you actually expect a coach to takeover this disaster and turn it around in 2 years? I hope not.

1. It doesn't take 4 years to "turn an NFL team around" Teams regularly turn around in a year two at the most.

2. Two of the teams Zac has beat have a combined 5 wins. It took him nearly two full seasons to win a road game ! He played the horrific NFCE this season and came away 0-3-1. 

3. There's nothing I've seen from ZT up to this point that leads me to believe he's an NFL level HC.

4. Every team has had to deal with the same covid issues as Zac, that's no excuse. 

[*jason*]

(12-31-2020, 08:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: 1. It doesn't take 4 years to "turn an NFL team around" Teams regularly turn around in a year two at the most.

2. Two of the teams Zac has beat have a combined 5 wins. It took him nearly two full seasons to win a road game ! He played the horrific NFCE this season and came away 0-3-1. 

3. There's nothing I've seen from ZT up to this point that leads me to believe he's an NFL level HC.

4. Every team has had to deal with the same covid issues as Zac, that's no excuse. 

To number 4.... The Bengals have been relatively unscathed by it too. I can't think of anybody notable missing time. None of our games were moved.

I asked for specifics in my post. I don't expect to get any because these are all just excuses and talking points.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(12-31-2020, 08:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: 1. It doesn't take 4 years to "turn an NFL team around" Teams regularly turn around in a year two at the most.

2. Two of the teams Zac has beat have a combined 5 wins. It took him nearly two full seasons to win a road game ! He played the horrific NFCE this season and came away 0-3-1. 

3. There's nothing I've seen from ZT up to this point that leads me to believe he's an NFL level HC.

4. Every team has had to deal with the same covid issues as Zac, that's no excuse. 

1. Under these circumstances it takes longe than 1 -2 years especially with the amount of injuries.

2. One of the teams he beat has a 12-3 record. He did not beat them the first game of the year he beat them when they were sting to win their division. Oh, by the way when was the last time we beat the Steelers on Prime Time Monday Night Football. Hell I would keep him around as long s he beats the Steelers every year.

3. I think his play calling is very good. For the longest time I along with every defensive player w played against could predict the play ML offense was going to run. I find it refreshing to watch a game I cannot tell what play is next. The Finley QB run for TD was awesome!

4. This is true but the more veteran teams have a better chance of handling this because their players are familiar with the staff already. We did though have more injuries to our TOP players than any other team.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(12-31-2020, 08:18 PM)jason Wrote: I keep hearing this... What SPECIFICALLY is hindering this from being a 2 year turnaround?.... What EXACTLY is it about the Rona that is also holding Zac Taylor back?

SPECIFICALLY injuries to our top players have hindered it. We also have a rookie QB.
We had a losing culture for the last 15 years that will not be easy to change.
Some players preferred the way it was under ML and did not put forth effort.

We have been watching shit football for the last 15-20 years what is wrong with giving the guy his 3-4 years?

What do you have to lose?

Stop watching them if you hate him so much. 

[MileHighGrowler]

(12-31-2020, 09:10 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: SPECIFICALLY injuries to our top players have hindered it. We also have a rookie QB.
We had a losing culture for the last 15 years that will not be easy to change.
Some players preferred the way it was under ML and did not put forth effort.

We have been watching shit football for the last 15-20 years what is wrong with giving the guy his 3-4 years?

What do you have to lose?

Stop watching them if you hate him so much. 

We have not been watching shit football for 15-20 years.  It was time for Merv to leave and he couldn't get them over the hump, but he had some good years in Cincy, where there was at least some hope they'd go deep into the playoffs.  You say you'd be happy with keeping Zac just to beat the Steelers every year, yet you crap all over the playoff appearances as being more interesting/exciting for the fanbase.  Why would you give Zac 3-4 years "because there's nothing to lose" when they can make a couple of changes now and contend next year? 

[*jason*]

(12-31-2020, 09:10 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: SPECIFICALLY injuries to our top players have hindered it. We also have a rookie QB.
We had a losing culture for the last 15 years that will not be easy to change.
Some players preferred the way it was under ML and did not put forth effort.

We have been watching shit football for the last 15-20 years what is wrong with giving the guy his 3-4 years?

What do you have to lose?

Stop watching them if you hate him so much. 

We've been watching shit football for 2 years, and blah football for the 3 years prior to that. The decade before that was the longest period of sustained success in the Bengals history. Guys on our coaching staff were getting head gigs and promotions from other teams. Not surprisingly, there isn't much interest around the league 8n our coaches at the moment. There may be a losing culture here, but to pin it on the past 15 years is laughable.

And I don't care enough about Zac Taylor to hate him my friend. He just sucks at his job (maybe that changes). The bottom line is we can, and could've done better. Deep down... You know it too.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(12-31-2020, 09:24 PM)jason Wrote: We've been watching shit football for 2 years, and blah football for the 3 years prior to that. The decade before that was the longest period of sustained success in the Bengals history. Guys on our coaching staff were getting head gigs and promotions from other teams. Not surprisingly, there isn't much interest around the league 8n our coaches at the moment. There may be a losing culture here, but to pin it on the past 15 years is laughable.

And I don't care enough about Zac Taylor to hate him my friend. He just sucks at his job (maybe that changes). The bottom line is we can, and could've done better. Deep down... You know it too.

Maybe your definition of shit football is different than mine. If you cant win a playoff game you are playing shit football. Marvin Lewis coached us  for 15 years without winning a playoff game, That is SHIT! I am so tired of being happy we made the playoffs only to get knocked out the first game. I was so happy as were many on here to hire someone outside the organization. I just want to give that person a chance.
If you fire him after 2 seasons what coach in their right mind would want this job knowing the Bengals front office history? If you don't make the playoffs in 2 years we are looking for another coach mentality is the wrong mentality. If ZT does not show improvement next year which I feel he will then they can get rid of him. Improvement to me would be around 8-8 and competing in all of your games.

[MileHighGrowler]

See, you say this:

(12-31-2020, 09:34 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Maybe your definition of shit football is different than mine. If you cant win a playoff game you are playing shit football. Marvin Lewis coached us  for 15 years without winning a playoff game, That is SHIT! I am so tired of being happy we made the playoffs only to get knocked out the first game. I was so happy as were many on here to hire someone outside the organization. I just want to give that person a chance.
If you fire him after 2 seasons what coach in their right mind would want this job knowing the Bengals front office history? If you don't make the playoffs in 2 years we are looking for another coach mentality is the wrong mentality. If ZT does not show improvement next year which I feel he will then they can get rid of him. Improvement to me would be around 8-8 and competing in all of your games.

But also this:

(12-31-2020, 09:06 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: 2. One of the teams he beat has a 12-3 record. He did not beat them the first game of the year he beat them when they were sting to win their division. Oh, by the way when was the last time we beat the Steelers on Prime Time Monday Night Football. Hell I would keep him around as long s he beats the Steelers every year.

And so I'm still kinda confused. Beating the Steelers isn't any better than going 10-6 and losing in the wildcard game. I'd argue it's maybe more fun to make the playoffs instead of winning a pointless game at the end of the season. But either way, it was time for ML to go (and it was some years before he did) and it's time for ZT to go.

[Tony]

(12-31-2020, 06:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I wasn't defending Zac... read the entire reply. It wasn't that long.

To say coaches don't improve is either stupidity or ignorance is my point.

These guys by your logic suck as coaches and should never have been allowed to coach again

Jack Pardee - brutal first year as a head coach with the Bears. Then got a second job where he went .500 in 3 years with Washington. Finally he went to Houston and went to the playoffs four straight times. 

Bill Walsh - First year 2-14. Second year 6-10. Third year, Super Bowl... but coaches don't get better.....

Bill Belichick was 36–44 with the Browns and fired before going to New England and becoming the hoodie.

Pete Carroll looked bad with the Jets, now in Seattle he has a Super Bowl.

Lou Holtz went 3-10 with the Jets... pretty sure he isn't a bad coach.

There was another coach named Saban, went 6-10 with Miami.... I think he is actually a good coach now though....


I'm not saying Zac is the answer or is magically going to turn into Walsh and take this team to the playoffs but you have to be a trolling if you say coaches can't improve over time, like every other profession on the planet.

Wow a handful of coaches defied the odds... You are right! Super Bowl next year...