Tee makes PFF All-Rookie Team

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 12:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We have two excellent WRs under contract for 3 more years.  That is arguably the strongest position group on the entire team.

With all the other holes in our roster it would be insane to use a first round pick on WR.

Wrong (again).  We have two really good #2-type WRs.  To make the offense (that does more 11 personnel than any team in the league) work, you need a speed option that can both take the top off the defense to open the middle of the field as well as a guy that can generate immediate separation afforded by either the cushion of a DB or the quick-twitch release and agility.  

Chase would make this offense lethal.  When the Bengals faced a team with enough depth in the back half to blanket Boyd and Higgins, they had no answer.  What teams have that?  The steelers and Ravens....teams the Bengals will face twice a year.

They banked on AJ Green being what he was before the injuries.  They were dead wrong.  They need an AJ in his prime type to make it all worthwhile.

Sadly, from a financial standpoint, they may have painted themselves in to a corner with Mixon's contract.  I forget if there is an out clause, but they clearly aren't dedicated to the run enough to spend that much on a RB, and taking him off the field repeatedly on third down is remarkably stupid as well.

Chase would be an ideal pick for this team.  The only other situation I see changing that is if they lose WJIII and have to go CB in Rd 1, but I really hope that doesn't happen.  

[CJD]

(01-04-2021, 01:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I wouldn't worry too much about Chase (or any other receiver) infringing on Higgins and Boyd.
All of Higgins, Boyd, and Green got 100+ targets, so there will be plenty to give to a new pass catcher.
Personally, I don't think Burrow's best fit is a speed guy. I think it's a guy he can trust to catch the ball, especially in the red zone. To me, that's Chase, Smith, or Pitts. Waddle would be nice with a QB who had a big arm and can hit him in stride deep (Mahomes, Allen), but I don't see that being Burrow.
Honestly, Pitts is the smarter option, as it gives them a dynamic pass-catching TE and would allow the Bengals to keep using Sample for what he does best - block.

My bigger concern is finances, honestly. Having three big contracts at WR will inevitably hinder other endeavors. So odds are, one of them will be let go after their contract expires. Boyd will only be 28 at the end of his contract so it won't be like he's an aging veteran who would take a smaller contract or anything like that. And Higgins, if he continues to progress on top of his rookie year (and with a full season of Burrow throwing him the ball) will surely demand quite the large salary increase in the same season that Boyd's contract expires, at the end of 2023. 

So drafting Chase or Smith would kind of...force us to part ways with one of the two at the end of 2023. Unless, of course, Chase is a bust and we don't have to worry about locking him up after 2025 (or 2024 if you don't count his 5th year option). That isn't exactly the mindset you want to have when drafting a WR in the top 5 though haha.

For that reason, I do like the idea of Pitts. It's a minor difference since he's still mostly a "receiver", but him being a TE means you can re-sign him or even franchise him at the TE price tag rather than the WR price tag (a little over 7 million dollars less for a TE Franchise tag compared to a WR franchise tag). And having two high priced WRs and 1 high priced TE just sounds less wasteful than having three high priced WRs, as meaningless as that may be.

My only concern there is that we historically don't use our TEs all that much. Maybe that's because we've never had the elite TE, other than Eifert for one season, so there's a chance that if we did we'd use him more like we did with Eifert in 2015. 

In 2017, we had the opportunity to draft a player who was considered an elite receiving TE in OJ Howard (his success in the NFL  to this point notwithstanding) and we chose John Ross, so maybe we're just not interested in drafting TEs in the top 10. Granted, it was a different coaching staff back then so maybe our ideology would change. We'll have to see.

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2021, 02:05 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Wrong (again).  We have two really good #2-type WRs.  To make the offense (that does more 11 personnel than any team in the league) work, you need a speed option that can both take the top off the defense to open the middle of the field as well as a guy that can generate immediate separation afforded by either the cushion of a DB or the quick-twitch release and agility.  

If you just need a fast guy like Chris Henry you don't have to use a top ten pick.

Super Bowl history proves that WRs are not the key to winning Championships. 

An elite WR would improve our team but not near as much as an elite player at another position where we have much bigger needs.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 02:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you just need a fast guy like Chris Henry you don't have to use a top ten pick.

Super Bowl history proves that WRs are not the key to winning Championships. 

An elite WR would improve our team but not near as much as an elite player at another position where we have much bigger needs.

Ja'Marr Chase is a faster version of AJ Green.  He's an alpha dog.  If AJ Green was available in this draft, would you not take him?  I think Chase is that good.  The fact that he played with Burrow is just icing.  

As far as your Super Bowl history proving that WRs are not the key, do you think that the Patriots won all those Super Bowls because of their offense?  They were incredibly balanced and had great defenses as well.  pitt had amazing WRs.  The Chiefs do as well.  The greatest show on turf?  

Tell me what elite player you would rather select than Chase at #5.  Assume Lawrence, Fields, and Sewell are gone.  

[*jason*]

(01-04-2021, 11:29 AM)motoarch Wrote: I have a feeling Miami takes Chase and Atlanta either goes defense or QB leaving Sewell still on the board at #5.

If that's the case I think the Bengals take him.

On topic:. Good for higgens he deserves it and as fans that have suffered through a lot of busts recently I'm so happy we got a couple winners in the last draft. Its looking like a really successful one so far despite the injuries to both out too guys.

Did Miami replace Tunsil yet? I'm not sure if they have.

[Essex Johnson]

Higgins seems like a strong pick after first season.. great job

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2021, 02:22 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ja'Marr Chase is a faster version of AJ Green.  He's an alpha dog.  If AJ Green was available in this draft, would you not take him? 

The year we drafted Green I wanted Patrick Peterson.

(01-04-2021, 02:22 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Tell me what elite player you would rather select than Chase at #5.  Assume Lawrence, Fields, and Sewell are gone.  

Way too early to have these type of discussions.  History has proven that the player rankings in the draft will be completely different than they are right now.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The year we drafted Green I wanted Patrick Peterson.




Way too early to have these type of discussions.  History has proven that the player rankings in the draft will be completely different than they are right now.

I will be you right now Chase is a top 5 pick.  Unless he tears his achilles or something at the combine, he will be a top 5 pick.  But give me a name or position you would rather have other than Chase at #5 if the two QBs and Sewell are gone.  "Not a WR" isn't an answer. 

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2021, 02:31 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I will be you right now Chase is a top 5 pick.  Unless he tears his achilles or something at the combine, he will be a top 5 pick.  But give me a name or position you would rather have other than Chase at #5 if the two QBs and Sewell are gone.  "Not a WR" isn't an answer. 

Depends on who we sign in free agency, but O-line, DT, and pass-rush are all MUCH bigger priorities than another WR.  And I would even say two O-linemen before another WR.

[sonofstat]

(01-04-2021, 11:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Great point.  And honestly, I look at Boyd as the one that will benefit the most from Higgins and Chase outside. He, Mixon/Gio, and Sample.  We just need that one outside speed merchant that can do it all like Chase, and improvements on the line and the offense will be lights out.  The defense?  Not so much.  

I think investing on an existing strength is fine if you are already a pretty balanced, high performing team...but we are just so poor across too many positions that it seems an extravagance TBH.

It's not even like we have an immediate , burning contractual/tag issue with Boyd and Higgins like we had with AJ this season.

I think investing a mid round pick and perhaps lucking out and getting Marvin Jones type speed and value is the way too go

PS: unlike Callahan/Zac i've not given up on Auden Tate either. I could see him contributing if he gets a fair amount of AJ's snaps

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Depends on who we sign in free agency, but O-line, DT, and pass-rush are all MUCH bigger priorities than another WR.  And I would even say two O-linemen before another WR.

That is the rub...there is no offensive linemen worth #5 overall except Sewell.  Also no DT or DE (in my opinion....I don't see Rousseau as that big an impact player). 

I could absolutely see trading out of that spot to a team that really wants a QB (Washington?  Detroit?  New England? Indy? Vegas? Denver? Chicago? Minnesota? Carolina?  New Orleans? Atlanta?  San Francisco?  There are really quite a few that would like to go for a rookie contract QB).

That being said, we have to be prepared to make a pick if we don't get a haul for the #5 pick.  The Lions were hoping for some deal at #3 overall last year and didn't get the offer.  They made the best pick they would with Okudah, but they probably would have liked to have multiple picks.  

Based on the projections that Lawrence, Fields, and Sewell are gone, I would be prepared to make Chase our pick.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 03:42 PM)sonofstat Wrote: I think investing on an existing strength is fine if you are already a pretty balanced, high performing team...but we are just so poor across too many positions that it seems an extravagance TBH.

It's not even like we have an immediate , burning contractual/tag issue with Boyd and Higgins like we had with AJ this season.

I think investing a mid round pick and perhaps lucking out and getting Marvin Jones type speed and value is the way too go

PS: unlike Callahan/Zac i've not given up on Auden Tate either. I could see him contributing if he gets a fair amount of AJ's snaps

If they lost WJIII, I could see them sliding a bit, getting an extra 2nd, and taking a CB in the first.  Then, you could go with a guy like Anthony Schwartz in the 3rd or 4th round after addressing the offensive line in Rd 2 with your (2) picks.  That could certainly happen.  I don't see any way they lose Lawson because they will tag him if he won't sign.  Weak draft class for DEs.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-04-2021, 02:22 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Tell me what elite player you would rather select than Chase at #5.  Assume Lawrence, Fields, and Sewell are gone.  

I probably want Chase as much as anyone on this board other than you, but Pitts would be my answer here. Sewell is my #1 choice, but if he’s gone Chase/Pitts are pretty much tied. I’d be super happy with either.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-04-2021, 01:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Agreed. I do think Burrow’s deep ball will improve over time, but like you said, he’s never going to be consistently bombing it down the field. I saw PFF mentioned Tee had 9 receptions over 20 yards which was a bit surprising. I knew it was at least a handful, but I didn’t realize it was that many. I’d be interested to see where that ranks among rookies (or even all WR’s).

Rookies, T 3rd.
Jefferson- 23
Lamb- 18
Higgins- 14
Claypool- 14
Jeudy- 14

NFL, T 21st

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-04-2021, 04:59 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Rookies, T 3rd.
Jefferson- 23
Lamb- 18
Higgins- 14
Claypool- 14
Jeudy- 14

NFL, T 21st

That’s odd. PFF has Tee at 9 (see OP).

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-04-2021, 05:02 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s odd. PFF has Tee at 9 (see OP).

I saw that but i checked ESPN and NFL.com and both have him at 14 20+yds.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-04-2021, 05:04 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I saw that but i checked ESPN and NFL.com and both have him at 14 20+yds.

I think maybe it’s a distinction between passes thrown 20+ yards vs plays that go for 20+ yards?

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-04-2021, 05:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I think maybe it’s a distinction between passes thrown 20+ yards vs plays that go for 20+ yards?

More than likely.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-04-2021, 02:05 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Wrong (again).  We have two really good #2-type WRs.  To make the offense (that does more 11 personnel than any team in the league) work, you need a speed option that can both take the top off the defense to open the middle of the field as well as a guy that can generate immediate separation afforded by either the cushion of a DB or the quick-twitch release and agility.  

Chase would make this offense lethal.  When the Bengals faced a team with enough depth in the back half to blanket Boyd and Higgins, they had no answer.  What teams have that?  The steelers and Ravens....teams the Bengals will face twice a year.

They banked on AJ Green being what he was before the injuries.  They were dead wrong.  They need an AJ in his prime type to make it all worthwhile.

Sadly, from a financial standpoint, they may have painted themselves in to a corner with Mixon's contract.  I forget if there is an out clause, but they clearly aren't dedicated to the run enough to spend that much on a RB, and taking him off the field repeatedly on third down is remarkably stupid as well.

Chase would be an ideal pick for this team.  The only other situation I see changing that is if they lose WJIII and have to go CB in Rd 1, but I really hope that doesn't happen.  

How many really good LBS do we have ?  None..  we won;t win in our division if we don;t get better at LB.... great example Burrow has two very good games against Cleveland and throwing 6 TDs.. first game we have up over 200 yards rushing, second game we gave up over 300 yards passing.  Then you got the Ravens games.. they rushed for a nearly 600 yards in those two games...

[Essex Johnson]

(01-04-2021, 02:31 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I will be you right now Chase is a top 5 pick.  Unless he tears his achilles or something at the combine, he will be a top 5 pick.  But give me a name or position you would rather have other than Chase at #5 if the two QBs and Sewell are gone.  "Not a WR" isn't an answer. 

I would bet you Parson's is more likely to be drafted first LB in first 5/7 pick than Chase is as a WR... but really what difference does that make ? you can make valid points for many positions but if you look at top end players.. we are better at WR I think than any other position.. that can make WR less of a priority.. FA can change that.. also what if we are able to pick up a good WR in FA ( Robinson, Hilton, JuJu, Godwin) to go with Boyd and Higgins.. would you then pass on Chase ?