How much if it is personnel and how much is coaching?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-04-2021, 05:30 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I didn't want to do a poll and have set answers.  It gets a little tricky with coaching, because do you include Tobin in that group and blame him for the personnel?

To simplify, I am going to leave the front office out of the equation.  You could make another thread about that if you wish, but there are plenty of those and all they do is point at the ineptitude.  I get it, as it is like Groundhog Day around here again after a nice run with Dalton and Green early on and Palmer and Chad before that.  

How much of THIS team's failures do you put on the players and how much do you put on the coaches?

I am split almost 50/50.  I think the roster has huge holes and injuries sure didn't help with a lack of quality depth.  Those holes are much more evident now than coming in to the 2020 season when we had high hopes for guys like Green, Atkins, and Dunlap.  Now all three need replaced.  I even had high hopes for Ross with Burrow.  Go ahead, let me have it for that one.  

I see big needs on both the inside and outside of the offensive line.  The defensive line needs help both inside and outside.  The WR group is talented but limited.  They need a couple burners that can generate quick separation and take the proverbial top off the defense. There are very few position groups I would refer to as "strengths".  That is not to say a good offseason can't make a huge difference, but then we have the coaches.

The same coaches that seemed to take 6 weeks to discover a screen pass that works on blitzing defenses.  The same coaches that seemingly reversed the progress of every offensive linemen but one (Hart).  The same coaching staff that had play after play of Burrow taking shots from free rushers.  

As much as I am disappointed with the coaching staff, I still put half of the blame on the roster.  The offensive line and defensive line play was really poor.  That led to so many problems across the board.  I never really saw improvement except for some personnel changes that came way too late (Margus Hunt, Spain).  Could a great coaching staff win with the team that was on the field this year?  I really don't think so.  

It's 50% players and 50% coaches in my book.  They are going to make a lot of changes (I would imagine) to the roster, but not so much in the coaching ranks.  Will that get the Bengals in to the playoffs?  With Burrow, I think almost anything is possible.  However, the biggest achilles heel to me moving forward will not be the roster, but the coaches.

I put much more on the coaching than 50%. I say more like 70% on the coaches. The Play Calling was bad for a lot of the year
which is on Zac and Lou, we played a lot of Zone in bad situations early on in the season which led to losses cause of the Defense
and Lou's play calling and lack of aggression. Same on Offense and the lack of aggression early on and the fact the coaches put 
Jordan out there and it led to the injury of Burrow.

We have a lot of good players that can be coached up to be the next man up and the coaches just couldn't do this.

Every team has injuries, it is how the next man steps up and this happens with good coaching and not with bad.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 07:13 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I think the Bengals' biggest weakness is the back of the roster. The starters can sort of hold their own but the depth gets brutally exposed. This where you're relying on Tobin and he has let them down. There are simply too many replacement level players.

I don't know if this is down to an unwillingness to spend on quality depth (I can imagine Mike Brown saying why do I need to pay for a back-up) but it hurts the Bengals time after time. Of course there is going to be a drop from starter to back-up but it shouldn't be as step as it has been for the Bengals.

Look at the Bengals' failure to use the waiver wire effectively. Was there really no-one better than Calhoun waived when Cincy had priority? That's on Tobin. The should be cycling through the back of the roster looking for someone who can stick. Instead they've been wasting spots on two kickers, or keeping a QB for a year before just cutting him.


Bombing the draft at the same time as failing to re-sign players - Zeitler, Marvin Jones, Whitworth, Sanu, Reggie Nelson etc - absolutely devastating for a draft and develop side that wouldn't spend in free agency.

Yes....and wholeheartedly agree with the part you replied to Growler with as well.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-05-2021, 07:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I put much more on the coaching than 50%. I say more like 70% on the coaches. The Play Calling was bad for a lot of the year
which is on Zac and Lou, we played a lot of Zone in bad situations early on in the season which led to losses cause of the Defense
and Lou's play calling and lack of aggression. Same on Offense and the lack of aggression early on and the fact the coaches put 
Jordan out there and it led to the injury of Burrow.

We have a lot of good players that can be coached up to be the next man up and the coaches just couldn't do this.

Every team has injuries, it is how the next man steps up and this happens with good coaching and not with bad.

That's very true about play-calling, especially the first few games with Burrow.  

[SladeX]

(01-05-2021, 12:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Brilliant logic.

I guess if you were rich you would also cure cancer by hiring someone to do it and if they failed hiring someone else.

Simple answes for simple minds.  Amazing that all other NFL owners don't realize how simple it is.

If I may:
There is no blueprint for "curing cancer", because it hasn't been done yet, at least not by the institutions present in our nation today.

OTOH
A superbowl is won every year. It's not a great mystery.  First, you need a good GM, and a coherent plan for building a team. But beyond that, many enterprises are successful,  and most share certain traits. Like owners who surround themselves with excellence. Nepotism,  otoh, usually doesn't yield excellence. 

[SuperBowlBound!]

(01-04-2021, 05:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: -Dunlap was one of the best players on our defense.  The reason we now have to replace him is that our coaches wanted to get rid of him.

-Bates played horrible last year and he has said it was because of communication problems with the coaching staff.

-Both Shawn Williams and Darius Phillips accused our coaches of "wasting talent".

-Andy Dalton had by far the worst season of his career under Taylor in 2019.  He was much better the year before under Lewis and the year after in Dallas.  He was not injured in 2019 so I assume it had a lot to do with the coaching.

-When our O-line gives up sacks it appears it is more often due to the inability to pick up a blitz or a stunt than players getting beaten one-on-one.

-Our defense gets much worse in the final 2 minutes of a half even with the same players on the field.


We lack talent on the offensive line and at DT.  So I am not saying it is 100% coaching.  But it looks like coaching is by far the biggest part of the problem.

- Maybe the coaches got tired of Dunlaps inconsistency.

- Maybe it had something to do with not having AJ Green his number one receiver.

- Take another look at the games in slow motion. They cannot pick up stunts and they get beat plenty of times.

A coach can only coach a player that wants to be coached. He cannot control the effort on game day.

If Dunlap wants to make a business decision and take plays off the coach can't control that.

If he gets on him for his effort the player can get mad and tell a reporter there is problems in the locker room.

Unless you know first hand what really happens between coach and player you really do not know anything.

I do know that ZT was not the only coach questioning Dunlaps effort. Marvin Lewis also questioned his consistency and Dunlap has even admitted it himself.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-06-2021, 12:54 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: - Maybe the coaches got tired of Dunlaps inconsistency.

- Maybe it had something to do with not having AJ Green his number one receiver.

- Take another look at the games in slow motion. They cannot pick up stunts and they get beat plenty of times.

A coach can only coach a player that wants to be coached. He cannot control the effort on game day.

If Dunlap wants to make a business decision and take plays off he cant control that.

If he gets on him for his effort the player can get mad and tell a reporter there is problems in the locker room.

Unless you know first hand what really happens between coach and player you really do not know anything.

I do know that ZT was not the only coach questioning Dunlaps effort. Marvin Lewis also questioned his consistency and Dunlap has even admitted it himself.

These folks aren't yet able to understand any of these great points.  All signs point to "ZT sucks cuz reasons" and literally the same regurgitated unoriginal rhetoric.

Dunlap was a cancer, and was appropriately removed.  Good riddance.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-06-2021, 12:59 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: These folks aren't yet able to understand any of these great points.  All signs point to "ZT sucks cuz reasons" and literally the same regurgitated unoriginal rhetoric.

Dunlap was a cancer, and was appropriately removed.  Good riddance.

LOL

6-25-1 (.203) is a pretty good reason.

[BengalChris]

You have to compare apples to apples. Coaches to coaches.

Marvin got more out of less the last couple of years with the team.

Taylor gets less out of more since he arrived.

It does take players and it does take coaches, but good coaches get the most they can out of the players they have. Taylor gets very little out of what he's got.

Several coaches lost their jobs this year with better records than Taylor. The Bengals owner's complete denial that Taylor was a bad hire should not be used to blame the players for Taylor's complete failure. It's on Mike Brown that this guy is still coaching in the NFL.

Really, Taylor should just quit. If he's kept on much longer no one will ever want him, even an assistant. He'll end up going the Dave Shula route to an entirely different career.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-06-2021, 01:51 AM)BengalChris Wrote: You have to compare apples to apples. Coaches to coaches.

Marvin got more out of less the last couple of years with the team.

Taylor gets less out of more since he arrived.

It does take players and it does take coaches, but good coaches get the most they can out of the players they have. Taylor gets very little out of what he's got.

Several coaches lost their jobs this year with better records than Taylor. The Bengals owner's complete denial that Taylor was a bad hire should not be used to blame the players for Taylor's complete failure. It's on Mike Brown that this guy is still coaching in the NFL.

Really, Taylor should just quit. If he's kept on much longer no one will ever want him, even an assistant. He'll end up going the Dave Shula route to an entirely different career.

LOL now this made me laugh.  You at least got one thing right, it is indeed on MB that ZT is still coaching.  

Taylor has too much class and respect for the organization, as well as the city, to just quit. He’d rather bring us a championship.  The nerve.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-06-2021, 02:26 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: LOL now this made me laugh.  You at least got one thing right, it is indeed on MB that ZT is still coaching.  

Taylor has too much class and respect for the organization, as well as the city, to just quit. He’d rather bring us a championship.  The nerve.

So what is it, more than the words that come out of his mouth, that makes you believe Zac Taylor can even bring a winning season to the Bengals, let alone a...championship? (i'm not gonna lie, that last word made me giggle a bit)

[wildcatnku24]

(01-06-2021, 02:41 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So what is it, more than the words that come out of his mouth, that makes you believe Zac Taylor can even bring a winning season to the Bengals, let alone a...championship? (i'm not gonna lie, that last word made me giggle a bit)

First, congrats on ur HOF status!  

I simply haven’t seen what ZT can do when more than half his team is healthy.  I mean gosh, we suffered ML for 100 years.  ZT inspires these young men to play their tails off.  Now, if you field a team full of actual starters, I think we see much better results.    If we don’t, we move on to the next one.  People throw out “another wasted year with burrow” etc, but the thing is ZT has the full support of said QB.  I’m not interested in assumptions based on what Burrow didn’t say. The fact is he is excited to play for ZT and likes the direction/culture that ZT is establishing.  Other players are saying it, too.  Why not have a little faith and see where it takes us?  

[Tony]

(01-05-2021, 11:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That scrub Kareem had a PFF rating within ONE POINT of Carlos, and funny that you would leave "pressures" off the comparison.  I'm sure you have it.  

Burn!!!

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-06-2021, 02:49 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: First, congrats on ur HOF status!  

I simply haven’t seen what ZT can do when more than half his team is healthy.  I mean gosh, we suffered ML for 100 years.  ZT inspires these young men to play their tails off.  Now, if you field a team full of actual starters, I think we see much better results.    If we don’t, we move on to the next one.  People throw out “another wasted year with burrow” etc, but the thing is ZT has the full support of said QB.  I’m not interested in assumptions based on what Burrow didn’t say. The fact is he is excited to play for ZT and likes the direction/culture that ZT is establishing.  Other players are saying it, too.  Why not have a little faith and see where it takes us?  

We “suffered” under Marvin? He never had a single season as bad as Zac’s first. Marvin’s first year he was 8-8. And that was with a team that won 2 games the year before.

Taylor has a LONG way to go to even be talked about in the same conversation as Marvin. 4 division titles and 7 playoff berths.

It took Zac Taylor 16 tries to even win a road game...

[wildcatnku24]

(01-06-2021, 02:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We “suffered” under Marvin? He never had a single season as bad as Zac’s first. Marvin’s first year he was 8-8. And that was with a team that won 2 games the year before.

Taylor has a LONG way to go to even be talked about in the same conversation as Marvin. 4 division titles and 7 playoff berths.

It took Zac Taylor 16 tries to even win a road game...

He did some wonderful things to bring the franchise outta the doldrums of the 90’s and whatnot, absolutely.  But the man couldn’t win in the bright lights, or when it mattered.  Zac’s already done that.  

Again, let’s see what happens when he has a team of starters.  Wouldn’t that be something.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-06-2021, 02:49 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: First, congrats on ur HOF status!  

I simply haven’t seen what ZT can do when more than half his team is healthy.  I mean gosh, we suffered ML for 100 years.  ZT inspires these young men to play their tails off.  Now, if you field a team full of actual starters, I think we see much better results.    If we don’t, we move on to the next one.  People throw out “another wasted year with burrow” etc, but the thing is ZT has the full support of said QB.  I’m not interested in assumptions based on what Burrow didn’t say. The fact is he is excited to play for ZT and likes the direction/culture that ZT is establishing.  Other players are saying it, too.  Why not have a little faith and see where it takes us?  

Ty sir and Go Cats. 

I get that optimistic take and it would be nice (for once) to see a healthy team for longer than one or two games. It's just too hard to ignore how other teams overcome injuries and are at least competitive and able to win a share of their games. Some things stand out like a sore thumb. Take one score games for instance. Most teams win half of those. Zac's teams are 2-13-1. Look at any average team--7-9, 8-8, 9-7--and you will see they typically win half of their road games. 5 and 6 win teams will typically win 3 games on the road each year. Zac's teams are 1-1-14 on the road...2-10 in the division...taking more than half a year to recognize and fix problems with the offensive line...sticking with a passive defense by rarely blitzing while teams thrive on their 4 man rush week after week...an inability to show diversity or innovation on offense until late in the year...the list goes on and on.

If we go back a bit further than that, he's the one that hired Jim Turner and Lou Anarumo and their inability to communicate properly with their players, leading to all the problems we've read about. Those two things look to be fixed with one firing and one guy that seems to be doing better but it took 1 3/4 seasons for those changes to happen. 

I'm not trying to be a debbie downer but those are all real things and they're all real problems. Optimists will generally overlook most of the bad and point towards the possiblities of the future. Pessimists will generally overlook all the good and point to the past. I'm typically optimistic or pessimistic depending on the day of the week during football season. But when it comes to the outlook of the team, it's really hard to look at the hard facts and truly believe that Zac can turn this thing around. History isn't on his side either, by what 'holic has posted recently. The infamous 'Dead Cat Bounce' isn't just a cute chatchphrase, it's a phenomenon that this team has a lot of experience with, and in each case, it doesn't turn out well for the following year. I don't put a whole lot of weight into players playing hard for him. Those guys are playing for their livelihood and future paychecks. It's beyond rare that players will obviously give up on a coach and tank it.

All that said, another fact of the matter is, we have no choice but to sit back and see what happens next year because Zac will definitely be here. There just aren't any tangible signs that point to it being any more successful than the previous two years, and when it's all said and done, that's another one to two years wasted because of short-sighted, half measures.

[BengalChris]

(01-06-2021, 02:26 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: LOL now this made me laugh.  You at least got one thing right, it is indeed on MB that ZT is still coaching.  

Taylor has too much class and respect for the organization, as well as the city, to just quit. He’d rather bring us a championship.  The nerve.

Taylor would actually have to be winning games to bring a championship.

How long do you wait for the winning games part? 4 years? 6 years? 10 years?

There won't be any fans left.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-06-2021, 03:37 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: All that said, another fact of the matter is, we have no choice but to sit back and see what happens next year because Zac will definitely be here. There just aren't any tangible signs that point to it being any more successful than the previous two years, and when it's all said and done, that's another one to two years wasted because of short-sighted, half measures.

YUP

There's not a single thing I can point to that leads me to believe next year will be any different than the last two. And it most likely is just gonna be a wasted season and Burrow will have to start all over with new staff/plays/schemes in 22. With my wishful thinking that MB actually fires him after going 5-11.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-06-2021, 02:41 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So what is it, more than the words that come out of his mouth, that makes you believe Zac Taylor can even bring a winning season to the Bengals, let alone a...championship? (i'm not gonna lie, that last word made me giggle a bit)

Don't get too far ahead with a championship, playoffs, or even a winning season.
Let's see single-digit losses first.
Baby steps.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-07-2021, 02:14 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: YUP

There's not a single thing I can point to that leads me to believe next year will be any different than the last two. And it most likely is just gonna be a wasted season and Burrow will have to start all over with new staff/plays/schemes in 22. With my wishful thinking that MB actually fires him after going 5-11.

It's kind of baffling that in both the last 2 seasons, it wasn't until the 2nd half of the year that the Oline and running game got "fixed" after being a problem the first half of the year. 

[wildcatnku24]

(01-07-2021, 03:19 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's kind of baffling that in both the last 2 seasons, it wasn't until the 2nd half of the year that the Oline and running game got "fixed" after being a problem the first half of the year. 

Is it still baffling, considering that the o-line wasn't even remotely consistent from a personnel perspective?