Moving the Chains talking about HC's...

[Sled21]

I close to verbatim as I can remember them saying.... "If you aren't good at offensive or defensive playcalling, it doesn't matter, because you can learn those things. What is important is being able to lead a locker room and get them to believe in you. You can be an offensive or defensive genius, but if you cannot lead men then stay a coordinator, because you will fail as a head coach."

Kinda what I said the other day about coaches can get better. It's being able to get a team to buy in that's important.

So blast away, Jim and Pat agree with me.

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-04-2021, 11:02 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I close to verbatim as I can remember them saying.... "If you aren't good at offensive or defensive playcalling, it doesn't matter, because you can learn those things. What is important is being able to lead a locker room and get them to believe in you. You can be an offensive or defensive genius, but if you cannot lead men then stay a coordinator, because you will fail as a head coach."

Kinda what I said the other day about coaches can get better. It's being able to get a team to buy in that's important.

So blast away, Jim and Pat agree with me.  

I 100% agree with that.  Being a HC isn't about being an offensive of defensive genius.  I've said that numerous times and believe it completely.  Being a HC is about being a leader.  It's about demanding the best from your coaches, and putting together the best staff.  It's about managing the team on the field during the game and managing all of the other moving pieces in the training facility.  This is why I'm not crazy about Bienemy as HC because of his supposed offensive prowess.  

But I don't think Zac's a good leader.  He's got the same coaching staff that haven't crap in two years.  He insists on calling plays himself and muddying his own role by trying to be the offensive genius.  He doesn't hold anyone to a high standard, as shown by the record and the fact that he won't relinquish his playcalling duties or search for a better D coordinator.  

So I agree with the statement.  And I think if anything, it's an indictment on Taylor.  He couldn't hack it as a coordinator, and so far he's showing he doesn't know how to truly lead an NFL team, either. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(01-04-2021, 11:14 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I 100% agree with that.  Being a HC isn't about being an offensive of defensive genius.  I've said that numerous times and believe it completely.  Being a HC is about being a leader.  It's about demanding the best from your coaches, and putting together the best staff.  It's about managing the team on the field during the game and managing all of the other moving pieces in the training facility.  This is why I'm not crazy about Bienemy as HC because of his supposed offensive prowess.  

But I don't think Zac's a good leader.  He's got the same coaching staff that haven't crap in two years.  He insists on calling plays himself and muddying his own role by trying to be the offensive genius.  He doesn't hold anyone to a high standard, as shown by the record and the fact that he won't relinquish his playcalling duties or search for a better D coordinator.  

So I agree with the statement.  And I think if anything, it's an indictment on Taylor.  He couldn't hack it as a coordinator, and so far he's showing he doesn't know how to truly lead an NFL team, either. 

The only thing the Bengals have in common with the Rams is being sheepish.

[Destro]

Then I, too, can be an NFL coach.

[Nicomo Cosca]

[impactplaya]

(01-04-2021, 11:02 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I close to verbatim as I can remember them saying.... "If you aren't good at offensive or defensive playcalling, it doesn't matter, because you can learn those things. What is important is being able to lead a locker room and get them to believe in you. You can be an offensive or defensive genius, but if you cannot lead men then stay a coordinator, because you will fail as a head coach."

Kinda what I said the other day about coaches can get better. It's being able to get a team to buy in that's important.

So blast away, Jim and Pat agree with me.  

Can.you show me past examples of Zac Taylor being a leader 
Of men before he took the Bengals HC job?

Cause I.cant find one example.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Every potential coaching candidate knows when Mike Brown is calling because he always calls collect.

[Sled21]

(01-05-2021, 12:07 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Can.you show me past examples of Zac Taylor being a leader 
Of men before he took the Bengals HC job?

Cause I.cant find one example.

I really don't have a clue what Taylor did before he came here, and don't care. He has held the locker room through some really rough stretches, and the players still believe in him. (I don't buy that players like Burrow, Boyd, Bernard and Hubbard are parroting the front office and are too sheepish to speak their true minds)

[BrownAssClown]

I will give credit where credit is due. This team seems to play hard for Taylor, well up until yesterday when they phoned it in. I wonder how long it will last though. Rah,Rah,Rah, will only get you so far. The players are people too and how much more will they take if the losing continues next season.

I will also give credit to the front office for spending in FA last off season, just too bad they didn't get any of FA offensive linemen that were available though, they didn't even get to kick the tires before they were gone.

Zac and Lou should be gone but they're not. They sure as hell better get it going outta the gate next season, but I have serious doubts about it and they sure as hell better build a freakin' fort around Burrow when he returns.

[impactplaya]

(01-05-2021, 12:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I really don't have a clue what Taylor did before he came here, and don't care. He has held the locker room through some really rough stretches, and the players still believe in him. (I don't buy that players like Burrow, Boyd, Bernard and Hubbard are parroting the front office and are too sheepish to speak their true minds)

I think it's important to equally realize what ZT did here before he signed on as HC. Because when look at the resume, it should tell you that Zac was not qualified to be a HC, much
Less to call plays on gameday.

If Zac Taylor was fired today, how many NFL teams looking
For a HC would even interview him for their opening because he is a good leader????  Really......??
None. Because ultimately HCs are judged on a simple criteria.
Wins and Losses. 
Did Dave Shula get another HC gig after his Bengals stint?
No. How about Dick LeBeau......he's a leader of men.
Look.at those Steelers defenses. He had the respect of all those great players in the B and G. 
Heck Dave Shula is a leader. He was able to increase profit margins at his Steakhouse. And he convinced the cooks at Ponderosa to work for Shulas. 

ZT has not held the lockeroom together. He just happens to have some high character guys. 
All this "leader of men stuff" isnt going to save Zac when the Bengals finish in last place in 2021 again.

All that matters is Wins and Losses. Save the leadership jive
For the BoyScouts.

[jj22]

If players believe in a coach that has won 6 games in 2 years (and not just leaders toting the company line), then the issue is the players not the coach. And you're not going to win with a group so easily bamboozled.

[Murdock2420]

(01-04-2021, 11:14 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I 100% agree with that.  Being a HC isn't about being an offensive of defensive genius.  I've said that numerous times and believe it completely.  Being a HC is about being a leader.  It's about demanding the best from your coaches, and putting together the best staff.  It's about managing the team on the field during the game and managing all of the other moving pieces in the training facility.  This is why I'm not crazy about Bienemy as HC because of his supposed offensive prowess.  

But I don't think Zac's a good leader.  He's got the same coaching staff that haven't crap in two years.  He insists on calling plays himself and muddying his own role by trying to be the offensive genius.  He doesn't hold anyone to a high standard, as shown by the record and the fact that he won't relinquish his playcalling duties or search for a better D coordinator.  

So I agree with the statement.  And I think if anything, it's an indictment on Taylor.  He couldn't hack it as a coordinator, and so far he's showing he doesn't know how to truly lead an NFL team, either. 

I disagree with that. I don't think his issue is not being a good leader, the players on the field have shown that they follow him. Unlike in down Marvin years where they were mailing it in week 10, this team went out with a 3rd string QB and bullied the division bully. That is leadership.

Where he is at fault, is his loyalty to his guys. He needs to be able to look at a Turner or a Lou or a Bobby Hart, or a Michael Jordan and say, you aren't getting it done and you are gone. 

His other major fault, isn't even his own. He took a job for a franchise that is only going to win if they can win their way of doing things. I'll never buy into the narrative that Mike Brown doesn't want to win. He is a man, and his father was a football icon. Every guy on here who had a decent relationship with his own dad is going to relate to this, you want to make the old man proud. There is no way Mike is happy with the results on the field, but the issue is he honestly thinks his way is the right way of doing it. He will stand his ground and be the only owner that votes against something and not care. The national media can blast him and he will not care. In his mind, he will win, he will win his way and that will show everyone. Problem is, in this modern era of statistics and scouts and saber-metrics, the league is playing chess, and he has a lite-brite. 

For Zac, this means he left the comfort of LA with a large scouting department and a large analytics department and came to the land of Tobin and the Brown family as your scouts along with the tape you have to watch yourself. That's a huge handicap.

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-05-2021, 01:21 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I disagree with that. I don't think his issue is not being a good leader, the players on the field have shown that they follow him. Unlike in down Marvin years where they were mailing it in week 10, this team went out with a 3rd string QB and bullied the division bully. That is leadership.

Where he is at fault, is his loyalty to his guys. He needs to be able to look at a Turner or a Lou or a Bobby Hart, or a Michael Jordan and say, you aren't getting it done and you are gone. 

His other major fault, isn't even his own. He took a job for a franchise that is only going to win if they can win their way of doing things. I'll never buy into the narrative that Mike Brown doesn't want to win. He is a man, and his father was a football icon. Every guy on here who had a decent relationship with his own dad is going to relate to this, you want to make the old man proud. There is no way Mike is happy with the results on the field, but the issue is he honestly thinks his way is the right way of doing it. He will stand his ground and be the only owner that votes against something and not care. The national media can blast him and he will not care. In his mind, he will win, he will win his way and that will show everyone. Problem is, in this modern era of statistics and scouts and saber-metrics, the league is playing chess, and he has a lite-brite. 

For Zac, this means he left the comfort of LA with a large scouting department and a large analytics department and came to the land of Tobin and the Brown family as your scouts along with the tape you have to watch yourself. That's a huge handicap.

There's more to being a leader than having people like you and want to follow you.  You also have to make everyone around you rise to the occasion.  Let's talk about the other Michael Jordan, and what he did for the Bulls.  His teammates didn't all love him, but they respected him and followed him because he elevated the team.  He wasn't trying to be everyone's friend and gathering them together for cigar nights and fun.  He was demanding the very best of them like he demanded from himself, and you follow someone like that.  I don't think Zac demands that of himself or his coordinators and coaches.  And if it's like that from the top down, the players might like and be comfortable with him, but it doesn't mean he's the right kind of leader.  

Since you mention it... I'm trying to remember which I enjoyed more, the satisfaction of puncturing that first hole in the light brite and leaving that thing on all night long or my little brother's face when he stepped on one of the pegs that was hidden in the carpet 

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 01:21 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I disagree with that. I don't think his issue is not being a good leader, the players on the field have shown that they follow him. Unlike in down Marvin years where they were mailing it in week 10, this team went out with a 3rd string QB and bullied the division bully. That is leadership.

Where he is at fault, is his loyalty to his guys. He needs to be able to look at a Turner or a Lou or a Bobby Hart, or a Michael Jordan and say, you aren't getting it done and you are gone. 

His other major fault, isn't even his own. He took a job for a franchise that is only going to win if they can win their way of doing things. I'll never buy into the narrative that Mike Brown doesn't want to win. He is a man, and his father was a football icon. Every guy on here who had a decent relationship with his own dad is going to relate to this, you want to make the old man proud. There is no way Mike is happy with the results on the field, but the issue is he honestly thinks his way is the right way of doing it. He will stand his ground and be the only owner that votes against something and not care. The national media can blast him and he will not care. In his mind, he will win, he will win his way and that will show everyone. Problem is, in this modern era of statistics and scouts and saber-metrics, the league is playing chess, and he has a lite-brite. 

For Zac, this means he left the comfort of LA with a large scouting department and a large analytics department and came to the land of Tobin and the Brown family as your scouts along with the tape you have to watch yourself. That's a huge handicap.

Very well said.  I think Zac's gonna surprise us all this coming year.  

With Burrow throwing to Boyd, Higgins and possibly Chase as well as having Mixon behind a great OL (hoping it'll turn into great!) they shall call us THE GREATEST SHOW ON TURF 2.0!!!! WHO FRIGGIN DEY!

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2021, 11:02 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I close to verbatim as I can remember them saying.... "If you aren't good at offensive or defensive playcalling, it doesn't matter, because you can learn those things. What is important is being able to lead a locker room and get them to believe in you. You can be an offensive or defensive genius, but if you cannot lead men then stay a coordinator, because you will fail as a head coach."

Kinda what I said the other day about coaches can get better. It's being able to get a team to buy in that's important.

So blast away, Jim and Pat agree with me.  

Only problem is that the locker room does not believe in our coaches.

Dunlap already bailed on them.

Jesse Bates called them out for poor communication skills last year.

Shawn Williams and Darius Phillips accused them of "wasting talent" on social media.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 01:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Only problem is that the locker room does not believe in our coaches.

Dunlap already bailed on them.

Jesse Bates called them out for poor communication skills last year.

Shawn Williams and Darius Phillips accused them of "wasting talent" on social media.

If that were the case, we'd have seen a lot more quit during the games.  We saw none (save Carlos as that was brutally obvious on the many plays he quit).  Where'd Jesse Bates call out the coaches for poor communication last year?  You sure he wasn't referring to the players?  

We don't really know what Shawn and Darius were referring to, but I do remember after that tweet from Darius that he played a super sh1tty game.  

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2021, 01:21 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote:  Unlike in down Marvin years where they were mailing it in week 10, this team went out with a 3rd string QB and bullied the division bully. That is leadership.

Actually Marvin Lewis's teams were often getting ready for the playoffs in week 10.  But even in down years they played tough late in the season.

We knocked the Ravens out of the playoffs in the last week of the '17 season, and unlike the Steeler game this year the Ravens didn't lay down and give the game away.  

We also knocked the Browns out of the playoffs in week 16 of the '07 season.

In '08 we won the last three games of the year after starting 1-11-1.  One of those wins was against the 7-6 Redskins who were playing for a playoff spot.

In 2010 we won 2 of our last 3 after starting 2-11.  One of those wins was against the 8-6 chargers who were fighting for a p;layoff spot.

[CanadianBengal]

(01-05-2021, 01:33 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Very well said.  I think Zac's gonna surprise us all this coming year.  

With Burrow throwing to Boyd, Higgins and possibly Chase as well as having Mixon behind a great OL (hoping it'll turn into great!) they shall call us THE GREATEST SHOW ON TURF 2.0!!!! WHO FRIGGIN DEY!

You pretty well nailed the Bengal front office philosophy!!!! " a great OL (hoping it'll turn into great!) --Bengals need more than hope --they need skill on the O-Line but have missed on this position or ignored it for years

[Murdock2420]

(01-05-2021, 01:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Marvin Lewis's teams were often getting ready for the playoffs in week 10.  But even in down years they played tough late in the season.

We knocked the Ravens out of the playoffs in the last week of the '17 season, and unlike the Steeler game this year the Ravens didn't lay down and give the game away.  

We also knocked the Browns out of the playoffs in week 16 of the '07 season.

In '08 we won the last three games of the year after starting 1-11-1.  One of those wins was against the 7-6 Redskins who were playing for a playoff spot.

In 2010 we won 2 of our last 3 after starting 2-11.  One of those wins was against the 8-6 chargers who were fighting for a p;layoff spot.

A well led team wouldn't commit the dumb penalties of the 2015 playoff team.

A well led team wouldn't crumble in high pressure situations over and over.

A well led team wouldn't shit it's own pants at the sight of it's divisional rival over and over.

A well led team doesn't fail to get out of the first round of the playoffs.

Marvin was not a leader. He had so many guys that played recklessly and out of control and he could not get those personalities under control. See Burfict, Pac-Man, Chris Henry, Odell Thurman, the list goes on.

He was great at finding talent. And he good coach those guys up to play a position, but be poised, control themselves, play team football, and give great effort every play. Nope, he never did that, and had he done it just once, we'd have a playoff win with the talent we had.

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2021, 01:46 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote:   Where'd Jesse Bates call out the coaches for poor communication last year?  You sure he wasn't referring to the players?  

 

Back in November Bates said that in 2019 he did not feel he could ask Lou questions

Jessie Bates III Hopes to Solve the Cincinnati Bengals' Problems - Sports Illustrated Cincinnati Bengals News, Analysis and More

 “Having Lou in my second year, I have a better relationship with him where I can ask questions and I don’t have to feel like I’m asking dumb questions or anything, or why he’s calling things, and what’s the weakness in that defense”. 





First week of December Ben Baby quoted Bates as saying that Lou's communication had improved after the story came out about how toxic the locker room was

Better Communication? (thebengalsboard.com)