End of the "Dalton Scale"?

[leonardfan40]

(05-26-2015, 07:09 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I'm sorry, which season did Tannehill lead the fins to the playoffs?  Oh, that's right...none of them!  

You also neglect the fact that aside from New England the entire AFC East is a turd herd.  They also lost (twice) the final game of the season to a Jets team that Dalton put up 49 on!

Yet Tannehill and the Dolphins are 2-0 vs Dalton and the Bengals...

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 08:29 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Yet Tannehill and the Dolphins are 2-0 vs Dalton and the Bengals...

And Dalton is 1-0 against Aaron Rodgers.

[leonardfan40]

(05-26-2015, 08:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And Dalton is 1-0 against Aaron Rodgers.

And TJ Yates is 2-0 against Dalton...we could go on and on with stupid facts trying to build up Dalton or bash Tannehill. The truth is they are both average QB's who got paid as such (nothing wrong with being average). I don't see why people think they need to trash Tannehill to make Dalton seem better than he is. There really isn't a big difference in the skill of these two QB's, so I'm not going to even bother trying to argue about which one is better because it isn't a big enough difference to matter. Tannehill not making the playoffs does not make him automatically worse than Dalton because they are in different circumstances.

[djs7685]

(05-26-2015, 07:28 PM)J24 Wrote: You can't be a bad Qb in this league and have  a 43-20 regular season record and 4 playoff appearances in your first 4 seasons. Let's not forget that Andy also was third in touchdowns in the NFL in 2013  again can't be a bad Qb with that on your resume.

Completely ignore that wins and losses are team statistics.

Seriously though, let's talk about those TD passes. How do you feel about Aaron Brooks? What about Jon Kitna?

I just want to clarify and make sure that this doesn't get taken the wrong way. I'm not saying that Andy is a bad QB because he's not. I'm just trying to say that while I believe that throwing a lot of TDs is impressive, it's not quite the amazing statistic some make it seem especially when a guy only does it once.

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 09:03 PM)djs7685 Wrote: it's not quite the amazing statistic some make it seem especially when a guy only does it once.

Dalton improved every single season until last year when his receiving corps was decimated by injuries. So the fact that he "only did it once" is meaningless. It's not like he hasn't done it in years.

Plus it wasn't just a lot of tds. Dalton ranked 3rd in tds, 7th in yards, and 15th in passer rating in 2013. How many times did Brooks or Kitna have seasons like that? And I am not ignoring the interceptions because they are included in his passer rating.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-26-2015, 05:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What will it take for some in this fan base to realize that a QB ranked in the 10-18 range is a valuable asset and very hard to replace?

The rest of the NFL already gets it.  That is whay they pay QBs like Dalton $15 million plus per year.

I've always agreed that a mid-range QB is an asset and hard to replace. I was on board with patience until the end of last year. If a QB hasn't managed to show he has an ability to overcome what most every team has to overcome from time to time--injuries--it's time to begin looking for his replacement.

Four full years and the only thing to show for is a QB that plays well enough in the regular season to get the team to the playoffs and a QB that does not play well in the vast majority of prime-time and playoff games. All it would have taken for me to still be on board is one instance of good QB play, in any of the 4 playoff games the Bengals have lost badly. The only time this QB has shown anything in those 4 games was the first half of the Chargers game and he followed that up by completely shitting the bed in the 2nd half. A game the Bengals had no business losing and he did more than enough to help their cause.

This QB, who possesses shelves full of excuses from the fan base upon his shoulders when he's really done very little to earn those excuses...when it matters. Very little outside of the regular season where too many of this fan base choose to cast their lots.

I remember the '80s well. A few good regular seasons, lately, is not enough to quench my thirst for more post season success and an excuse like "it could always be worse" is an excuse my ears don't want to hear.

I'll be watching, cheering an supporting the team like always this year, but i have nothing to give me hope that the QB can do anything to lead this team beyond the first round of the playoffs.

And as an aside, i don't lay the blame at the QBs feet alone. This head coach is just as guilty as anyone for the post-season futility.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-26-2015, 07:09 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I'm sorry, which season did Tannehill lead the fins to the playoffs?  Oh, that's right...none of them!  

You also neglect the fact that aside from New England the entire AFC East is a turd herd.  They also lost (twice) the final game of the season to a Jets team that Dalton put up 49 on!

No doubt. But would he fare the same if he found himself wearing the Orange and Black the last 3 years? I know one QB that has worn those colors and proven to be worthless in the post-season.

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 09:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: If a QB hasn't managed to show he has an ability to overcome what most every team has to overcome from time to time--injuries--it's time to begin looking for his replacement.

When Gronk was injured in 2013 Brady's passer rating was lower than Dalton's. Does that mean the Pats should have started looking for his replacement last year?

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-26-2015, 09:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When Gronk was injured in 2013 Brady's passer rating was lower than Dalton's.  Does that mean the Pats should have started looking for his replacement last year?

I'm trying to be serious here, Fred.

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 09:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: No doubt. But would he fare the same if he found himself wearing the Orange and Black the last 3 years? I know one QB that has worn those colors and proven to be worthless in the post-season.

So if Dalton had played exactly the same but NOT made the playoffs four straight years you would be fine with him?

Because I can provide a long list of very good QBs that did not look god in a single playoff game their first four seasons. And if their teams had gotten rid of all of them they would have missed out on some great QBs.

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 09:27 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm trying to be serious here, Fred.

And I am seriously tearing down your argument.

The claim that injuries don't matter to good QBs is completely false.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-26-2015, 09:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I am seriously tearing down your argument.

The claim that injuries don't matter to good QBs is completely false.

Tearing down my argument by asking if Tom freaking Brady should be replaced after one sub-par season in the past five, with 3 rings already on his fingers, while Dalton hasn't had a single average playoff game, nor a season rating over 90 in the last 4 years?

I'd suggest some stronger implements to "tear down" my argument. Maybe not creating false claims would help too. Unless you can show where i said injuries "don't matter" to good QBs?

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-26-2015, 09:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So if Dalton had played exactly the same but NOT made the playoffs four straight years you would be fine with him?

First 3 years he played well enough to warrant optimism. Take away the 3 playoff games, and that takes away a lot of negativity.

Quote:Because I can provide a long list of very good QBs that did not look god in a single playoff game their first four seasons.  And if their teams had gotten rid of all of them they would have missed out on some great QBs.

Can you show me an average QB not named Joe Flacco that played as bad as Dalton in their first 4 playoff games and went on to have post-season success later? Flacco at least had a rating of 89 in his first 4.

As an extra question; how many playoff failures...that is to say, the QB playing poorly himself...before you decide Dalton needs to be replaced? Is there a number? Or only excuses as long as he's wearing the stripes?

[Whatever]

(05-21-2015, 11:26 AM)PhilHos Wrote: From a pure talent perspective, Terrell Pryor >> Tannehill AND Dalton. Are you saying you want Pryor to start for the Bengals? Obviously, the higher talent = better production, right?

In terms of the Tannehill vs Dalton debate, in my mind, they are about equal.

One last thing about Dalton (for now), I find it very telling that the usual standards for judging a QB are thrown out the window when it comes to Dalton. Other QBs are judged on wins and stats, for the most part. But, because those would indicate Dalton is a good QB, people bring up other things. They may be valid criticisms (playoff and prime time performances, for example), but still are generally solely only used to knock Dalton down.

The fact of the matter is that Dalton is a decent-to-good QB that has shown flashes of being a very good, if not great, QB, whose problems stem from inconsistencies and poor playoff/prime time performances.

With that said, there is a small part of me that sometimes dreams that Pryor gets a chance to start and ends up being like a super mobile Brett Favre (I do like them strong arm QBs).

Exactly. Tannehill has better tools than Tom Brady and Drew Brees, too, but he's nowhere near the QB. Despite his arm strength and the Dolphins getting the best deep threat in the league in Mike Wallace, he still isn't as good of a deep ball thrower as Dalton.

People also overestimate the talent around Dalton. Truth is, while this roster is sound and deep, it's severely lacking in top tier players that are often the difference makers in critical games. There's only 6 players on this roster who have been to the Pro Bowl, even as an alternate. One of those is Dalton. Burfict missed most of the year with various injuries. Atkins was a shell of himself coming back from a torn ACL. Whit was great. Huber is a punter. AJ was dinged up and in and out of the lineup, and when he was healthy injuries to the talent around him made it easier for teams to focus on putting the clamps on him.

Dalton is far from elite, but people ranking him in the 20's is laughable. You might make the playoffs once or twice in a four year span, maybe go on a run and get deep once, but you don't make it four years straight in arguably the toughest division in football without a good QB. If it was that plausible, then teams wouldn't give up what they do to move up in the draft to try and draft a quality QB and teams wouldn't pay what they do to hold on to other good but not great QB's.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-26-2015, 08:29 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Yet Tannehill and the Dolphins are 2-0 vs Dalton and the Bengals...

Yeah, those were real blowouts weren't they? And one of those losses was in Miami on a short week (Thursday Night).

I also believe Dalton is 1-1 against Brady, 1-0 against Rogers, 1-0 against Brees, 1-1 against Rivers, 1-0 against Eli Manning, and 1-2 against Peyton Manning becoming the only Bengal's starting QB to beat him? Care to try again or are you still confused?

[djs7685]

(05-26-2015, 09:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton improved every single season until last year when his receiving corps was decimated by injuries.  So the fact that he "only did it once" is meaningless.  It's not like he hasn't done it in years.

Plus it wasn't just a lot of tds.  Dalton ranked 3rd in tds, 7th in yards, and 15th in passer rating in 2013.  How many times did Brooks or Kitna have seasons like that?    And I am not ignoring the interceptions because they are included in his passer rating.

Kitna was 3rd in TDs, 7th in yards, and 9th in passer rating. How many times did Andy have a season like that? The answer is the same amount of times as Jon Kitna.

The fact that he only did it once it far from meaningless. I like how he was "improving" every year as if that means he would just magically get better every single year of his career. I know that you're WAY too obsessed with stats, so it's impossible to have some of these conversations with you, but did you really see an extremely different QB on the field from 2012 to 2013? What about watching him in 2012 compared to the second half of 2014? Was that guy so much different as you claim? He still had the same mechanical issues and his pocket presence is laughable compared to most other QBs in the league. That stuff hasn't changed. You can pretend that stats are all that matter, and I'll continue to believe what my eyes tell me and while I'm at it I'll keep finding stats that prove you and others theories to be incorrect.

I like how you tried to pull the whole "How many times has Kitna had a season like that, huh?!?!?" even though he had a season where his rankings were better than Andy's. I guess you should have gone cherry picking for different stats, because the 3 you chose didn't work out so well. I'm sure that won't matter though, you'll go around cherry picking some more until you can be "right" about something.

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 09:47 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Can you show me an average QB not named Joe Flacco that played as bad as Dalton in their first 4 playoff games and went on to have post-season success later? Flacco at least had a rating of 89 in his first 4.

In Troy Aikman's first 3 seaons the Cowboys did not score a single td in a playoff game and Aikman's postseason numbers were 114 passing yards per game with a 63.0 passer rating.

Drew Bledsoe went to a Super Bowl in his fourth season, but his postseason stats through those first four seasons were 51.6 completion %, 207.5 yards per games, 4 tds, 10 ints, and a 49.1 passer rating

Kerry Collins was a Super Bowl QB, but his postseason numbers over his first four years were 157.5 yards per game and a 63.9 passer rating.

Randall Cunningham made the playoffs 8 times and won 5 postseason games, but over his first four seasons his playoff passer rating was 52.0

Jake Delhomme started 2 conference Championship Games and 1 Super Bowl, but he did not even make the playoffs his first 4 seasons.

Trent Dilfer won playoff games with two different teams (Tampa Bay, Baltimore) and took one to the Super Bowl. His postseason stats over his first four years were 38.7 completion percentage, 190.5 yards per game, and a 45.2 passer rating. In the 4 postseason games of his Super Bowl year (his 7th season) he compiled a respectable 83.7 passer rating.

[fredtoast]

(05-27-2015, 08:23 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Kitna was 3rd in TDs, 7th in yards, and 9th in passer rating. How many times did Andy have a season like that? The answer is the same amount of times as Jon Kitna.

But Kitna didn't achieve those numbers until his 7th season in the league.

According to you it is impossible for a QB to get any better after his fourth season.

So how is it possible that Kitna did not achieve that level of success until after he ahd been in the league 6 years?

[djs7685]

(05-27-2015, 10:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But Kitna didn't achieve those numbers until his 7th season in the league.

According to you it is impossible for a QB to get any better after his fourth season.

So how is it possible that Kitna did not achieve that level of success until after he ahd been in the league 6 years?

Whoa.

Where did I claim that it was impossible for a QB to get better after his fourth season?

If that's what you got out of me repeatedly saying something along the lines of "QBs aren't guaranteed to improve every single season just because they did a couple of times", then you really need to learn how to read a bit better.

[fredtoast]

(05-27-2015, 08:23 AM)djs7685 Wrote: did you really see an extremely different QB on the field from 2012 to 2013?

You can pretend that stats are all that matter, and I'll continue to believe what my eyes tell me

When they stop keeping score and decide who wins football games based on "style points" then you might have an argument.

But even then you don't really have the qualifications to judge a QB. In 2013 Dalton forced the ball down the filed much better than he did in 2012. Yet you claim he didn't look any different at all. In 2012 Dalton was only 12-54 for 450 yards with 3 tds and 4 interception when throwing the ball over 20 yards downfield. In 2013 he was 18-67 for 729 yards with 8 tds and 3 ints. He almost DOUBLED his passer rating from 49.5 to 93.3.

If your expert eyeball test didn't pick that up maybe you should get some glasses.