Chase vs. Sewell

[Gdale_Bengal]

(02-04-2021, 08:50 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote:  neither Chase or Smith are know as burners by NFL standard.. normally below 4.0 both though have different styles  both can use that to their advantage to go vertical... 

Both are top WRs and really in the end.. if either are available and we want to go WR at #5 they will add another dimension to our passing game. 

Below 4 running a 40? Wow

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-04-2021, 08:50 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote:  neither Chase or Smith are know as burners by NFL standard.. normally below 4.0 both though have different styles  both can use that to their advantage to go vertical... 

Both are top WRs and really in the end.. if either are available and we want to go WR at #5 they will add another dimension to our passing game. 

(02-05-2021, 01:09 PM)Kaiden.Gower Wrote: Below a 4.0?

(02-05-2021, 06:11 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Below 4 running a 40? Wow

[coachmcneil71]

i need to get me one of them sub 4.0 forties! Feets don't fail me now..

[Hammerstripes]

(02-01-2021, 11:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am curious to the opinions of the board if both Sewell and Chase are available at #5.  I didn't include a trade down option because of the specifics needed and not knowing who would be available later.

I voted Chase.  I see him as a future HOF talent and we lost that with Green.  I think he would make everything on the offense work better. There are still tackles that could be there at the top of Rd 2 that would be instant starters on the right side.  Thoughts?

I don't see how Chase makes much of a difference if our line sucks like it did this year.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-05-2021, 07:03 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I don't see how Chase makes much of a difference if our line sucks like it did this year.

It is a fair question.  A question the Bengals should have asked themselves last year when they decided to pay AJ Green 18 million and stick (largely) with the line they had the year before.  

It kind of made sense, though.  No one wants to hear that now, but the way the offensive line finished the 2019 season and Mixon led the NFL in rushing the second half of the season and they were going to get Jonah Williams to add to that.  Perfect example of "those that stand still, get passed".  That has been a mantra of mine for many things ranging from athletics to career achievement.  The Bengals thought they would pick up where they left off and that just didn't happen.  

I will just come out and say it now:  for the Bengals to select Chase, they would have had to have signed a RT in FA like Taylor Moton.  I'm all in on that decision.  That opens up the draft for the Bengals to add a weapon like Chase and still go after a starting guard in Rd 2, or a developmental OT in Rd 3 like Spencer Brown that would allow Moton to kick inside after a year.  

If they sign Moton, and Sewell is still there, I could see them taking Sewell anyways.  Can you imagine a line that would go:

Sewell....J. Williams.....Hopkins/Price.....Spain/XSF......Moton

Damn.  But I have a feeling this talk about Sewell will go away and he will be taken before we draft.

Chase is a higher prospect than AJ Green was coming out of college.  Did more in a single season, also in the SEC, at a younger age.  I am actually glad he sat out and won't be "dead" coming out after bowl games, immediately to combine prep camps, the combine, then OTAs. 

Chase is strong and won't get held up at the LOS.  He has speed to take the top off the defense.  He is tough as nails and will run deep crossing routes.  He will open up everything for this offense, including dropping safeties that will help open up the rushing attack.  This league is about scoring points and I think he adds more point potential than any single player in the draft.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-06-2021, 11:53 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Chase is a higher prospect than AJ Green was coming out of college.  Did more in a single season, also in the SEC, at a younger age.  I am actually glad he sat out and won't be "dead" coming out after bowl games, immediately to combine prep camps, the combine, then OTAs. 

C’mon now, let’s be fair here. AJ was a 4th overall pick (with ideal size at 6’4), who after his freshman year with Stafford played with Aaron Murray and Joe Cox as his QB’s...

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-06-2021, 12:30 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: C’mon now, let’s be fair here. AJ was a 4th overall pick (with ideal size at 6’4), who after his freshman year with Stafford played with Aaron Murray and Joe Cox as his QB’s...

Ok, I hear what you are saying, but Green never sniffed 1700 yards, 20 TDs, and a 21.1 YPR average.  Chase did that as a sophomore, at 19 years old.  Another way of looking at it was that Burrow had CEH as a rusher, a solid TE, and two other WRs...but Chase still did all that with 84 receptions.  

Greene's best season (where he played just one fewer game...he was injured his sophomore year and suspended for selling a jersey his junior year) was his freshman season where he compiled 56 receptions for 963 yards and 8 TDs.  

[fortyyearfan]

(02-01-2021, 11:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am curious to the opinions of the board if both Sewell and Chase are available at #5.  I didn't include a trade down option because of the specifics needed and not knowing who would be available later.

I voted Chase.  I see him as a future HOF talent and we lost that with Green.  I think he would make everything on the offense work better. There are still tackles that could be there at the top of Rd 2 that would be instant starters on the right side.  Thoughts?

I agree with you,Chase is the man for me.He is a game changer and already has props with Burrow.Our offense would be epic.You can get a top linemen rounds 2 plus.This draft is loaded with top linemen.Chase only comes around every now and then,This guy is going to be great.Always get the game changer that scores POINTS. Sewell being from the west coast,those guys gets homesick,and his coaches at times has to push him as he takes plays off,he is an awesome player I know,but betweet the two,I would for sure take Chase and I believe the Jets are after him.

[Hammerstripes]

(02-10-2021, 06:23 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: I agree with you,Chase is the man for me.He is a game changer and already has props with Burrow.Our offense would be epic.You can get a top linemen rounds 2 plus.This draft is loaded with top linemen.Chase only comes around every now and then,This guy is going to be great.Always get the game changer that scores POINTS. Sewell being from the west coast,those guys gets homesick,and his coaches at times has to push him as he takes plays off,he is an awesome player I know,but betweet the two,I would for sure take Chase and I believe the Jets are after him.

Winning teams are built in the trenches.  Couldn't disagree with this statement more.

This year's draft is really hard to project.  If we do anything with the O-line it may change the way I feel about who we take at #5.

Of course, we don't even know who will be there at 5.

I'm still hoping for Sewell as you can find great WRs in rounds 2-4.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-10-2021, 09:57 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Winning teams are built in the trenches.  Couldn't disagree with this statement more.

This year's draft is really hard to project.  If we do anything with the O-line it may change the way I feel about who we take at #5.

Of course, we don't even know who will be there at 5.

I'm still hoping for Sewell as you can find great WRs in rounds 2-4.

My poll question was flawed...I should have included something like Moton being signed as a FA.  While I originally wanted Thuney (and would still love him, as I think he will find that he isn't going to get anywhere near 14 million a season with this cap and so many teams strapped) but I want Moton to be our RT, and if then you are wide open to take Chase in Rd 1, and then a guard like Brown in Rd 2.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-01-2021, 11:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am curious to the opinions of the board if both Sewell and Chase are available at #5.  I didn't include a trade down option because of the specifics needed and not knowing who would be available later.

I voted Chase.  I see him as a future HOF talent and we lost that with Green.  I think he would make everything on the offense work better. There are still tackles that could be there at the top of Rd 2 that would be instant starters on the right side.  Thoughts?

Sewell is my vote. Love Chase and Pitts too for us if we get Moton or Daryl Williams in FA.

But I still would be for Sewell even if we got one of these guys, that is how much I like Sewell.

The best teams are built from the trenches out, just ask those guys who lost in the SB...

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-12-2021, 04:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sewell is my vote. Love Chase and Pitts too for us if we get Moton or Daryl Williams in FA.

But I still would be for Sewell even if we got one of these guys, that is how much I like Sewell.

The best teams are built from the trenches out, just ask those guys who lost in the SB...

My fear on not taking a WR like Chase is our WR corps would actually be worse than this past year.  AJ Green was nowhere near what we had hoped for, but he would be gone and what 3rd or 4th rounder is going to make an impact like Chase?  

For me, it isn't just protecting Burrow, but getting him a true #1 WR.  

I can't imagine they won't at least sign one of the tackles.  If they want to draft the guard rather than pay a guy like Thuney (who may find he isn't going to get anywhere near 14 million on the open market with the cap position of so many teams), then they had better pay for a FA OT.  If Chase is gone, and you get Sewell, you could consider moving Jonah to LG and have Sewell playing LT while the FA plays the right side.  Then you could get your WR in Rd 2 and there would still likely be a pretty strong talent there.  

I just want Chase so badly.  I look at the top offenses in the past 20 years with Palmer and Dalton and they had a true #1 (Chad, AJ) and depth of talent behind them.  Chad had TJ, and AJ had Jones Jr and Sanu.  Add Chase and we would have a lethal WR corps.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

Racer, do you not think Tee has the potential to be a true #1? I mean, the kid put up 900 yards and 6 TD as a 21 year old rookie. And that was with Burrow being out for 6 games...

I’m super high on Chase myself, but I see a lot of potential in Tee.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-13-2021, 11:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: My fear on not taking a WR like Chase is our WR corps would actually be worse than this past year.  AJ Green was nowhere near what we had hoped for, but he would be gone and what 3rd or 4th rounder is going to make an impact like Chase?  

For me, it isn't just protecting Burrow, but getting him a true #1 WR.  

I can't imagine they won't at least sign one of the tackles.  If they want to draft the guard rather than pay a guy like Thuney (who may find he isn't going to get anywhere near 14 million on the open market with the cap position of so many teams), then they had better pay for a FA OT.  If Chase is gone, and you get Sewell, you could consider moving Jonah to LG and have Sewell playing LT while the FA plays the right side.  Then you could get your WR in Rd 2 and there would still likely be a pretty strong talent there.  

I just want Chase so badly.  I look at the top offenses in the past 20 years with Palmer and Dalton and they had a true #1 (Chad, AJ) and depth of talent behind them.  Chad had TJ, and AJ had Jones Jr and Sanu.  Add Chase and we would have a lethal WR corps.  

Burrow I think can make do with Tee, Boyd, Mixon, Gio, Tate, Sample and a couple other weapons added.

But he cannot make do without a competent Offensive Line.

Burrow throws to the open man, the ball gets spreaded.

True #1 is an overrated thought IMO.

When is the last time a true #1 WR won a Super Bowl by himself?

(02-13-2021, 12:49 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Racer, do you not think Tee has the potential to be a true #1? I mean, the kid put up 900 yards and 6 TD as a 21 year old rookie. And that was with Burrow being out for 6 games...

I’m super high on Chase myself, but I see a lot of potential in Tee.

Tee is our #1 already.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-13-2021, 12:49 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Racer, do you not think Tee has the potential to be a true #1? I mean, the kid put up 900 yards and 6 TD as a 21 year old rookie. And that was with Burrow being out for 6 games...

I’m super high on Chase myself, but I see a lot of potential in Tee.

Don't see #1 in Tee. I think he can potentially be a top tier #2, but it'll be hard to get over his lack of speed separation.

AJ Green:  4.5 40-yd, 1.56 10-yd split, 4.21 20-yd shuttle
Tee Higgins: 4.59 40-yd, 1.66 10-yd split, 4.53 20-yd shuttle

That's AJ at the Combine and Tee at his Pro Day (he didn't work out at the Combine) and pretty universal fact that everyone times faster at their Pro Day. 

Doesn't have the short burst, the long speed, or the change of direction speed to be a true #1, and I don't think he has the sheer brute physicality to get over the lack of speed like Anquan Boldin.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-13-2021, 04:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't see #1 in Tee. I think he can potentially be a top tier #2, but it'll be hard to get over his lack of speed separation.

AJ Green:  4.5 40-yd, 1.56 10-yd split, 4.21 20-yd shuttle
Tee Higgins: 4.59 40-yd, 1.66 10-yd split, 4.53 20-yd shuttle

That's AJ at the Combine and Tee at his Pro Day (he didn't work out at the Combine) and pretty universal fact that everyone times faster at their Pro Day. 

Doesn't have the short burst, the long speed, or the change of direction speed to be a true #1, and I don't think he has the sheer brute physicality to get over the lack of speed like Anquan Boldin.

Rare time I disagree with you TLL.

Tee has skills that make him a #1. It is not all about the Combine and Pro Day numbers. He shows up on the field.

Has great hands, runs crisp routes, has great size and is deceivingly fast and most importantly is where he should be even
as a rookie last season. Tee could be better than AJ for all we know especially with Burrow already on the same page with him.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-13-2021, 05:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Rare time I disagree with you TLL.

Tee has skills that make him a #1. It is not all about the Combine and Pro Day numbers. He shows up on the field.

Has great hands, runs crisp routes, has great size and is deceivingly fast and most importantly is where he should be even
as a rookie last season. Tee could be better than AJ for all we know especially with Burrow already on the same page with him.

Yeah, what’s the cutoff for true #1 anyway? 1200+ yds and double digit TD’s? AJ only did that 3x in his career. And I think with more experience and time with Burrow, Tee can put up those kinds of numbers. If not more.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-13-2021, 05:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, what’s the cutoff for true #1 anyway? 1200+ yds and double digit TD’s? AJ only did that 3x in his career. And I think with more experience and time with Burrow, Tee can put up those kinds of numbers. If not more.

The Bengals were only top-10 in passing attempts 1 time in AJ Green's career, 2019 when he didn't play a snap.

Burrow threw 399 pass attempts in 9.5 games. That's a 672 pass attempt season pace, which would be the 6th most EVER thrown in a single season.

Dalton's top 3 attempt seasons are 586, 563, and 528. (He would have had 650 in 2019 under Taylor if he played all 16 games.)

If they start setting passing attempt records, there's no question Tee will surpass AJ's numbers... it won't be the same, though, and it'll be at a good chunk of yards per catch less.


- - - - -

EDIT: Jeeze, I guess I never really thought about it properly. If Burrow and Dalton played full seasons, Zac Taylor has been on pace to have the 6th and 17th highest passing attempt seasons in NFL history in his only 2 seasons. Behind the last two years' OLs.... Goddamn they need a new OC/playcaller.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-13-2021, 04:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Burrow I think can make do with Tee, Boyd, Mixon, Gio, Tate, Sample and a couple other weapons added.

But he cannot make do without a competent Offensive Line.

Burrow throws to the open man, the ball gets spreaded.

True #1 is an overrated thought IMO.

When is the last time a true #1 WR won a Super Bowl by himself?


Tee is our #1 already.

While I have high praise for Burrow's abilities to read the defense and get the ball out quick, we saw how he struggled (and it wasn't just the line) against pitt and baltimore.  Those two teams had defenses deep enough to take away Higgins and Boyd and the routes would take too long to develop.  We have a lot of guys that run good routes and have really good hands, but (IMHO) we need that one ace to make it all work.  

The two best offenses (that put up points on virtually everyone) in our recent history was the Bengals in 2005 and in 2015.  They both had true, in their prime, #1 WRs.  Guys that dictated coverage.  Guys that if you gave too much cushion could get easy completions and guys that if you pressed could torch you.  Boyd and Higgins, while great WRs in their own right are simply not those guys.  Plus, if you have a true #1 like Chase, the middle opens up so much more for them as well as forcing safeties deep to open the rushing attack.  

Of course, we need the line improved, but I think no one player can upgrade this offense like Chase.  

[samhain]

(02-14-2021, 10:36 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While I have high praise for Burrow's abilities to read the defense and get the ball out quick, we saw how he struggled (and it wasn't just the line) against pitt and baltimore.  Those two teams had defenses deep enough to take away Higgins and Boyd and the routes would take too long to develop.  We have a lot of guys that run good routes and have really good hands, but (IMHO) we need that one ace to make it all work.  

The two best offenses (that put up points on virtually everyone) in our recent history was the Bengals in 2005 and in 2015.  They both had true, in their prime, #1 WRs.  Guys that dictated coverage.  Guys that if you gave too much cushion could get easy completions and guys that if you pressed could torch you.  Boyd and Higgins, while great WRs in their own right are simply not those guys.  Plus, if you have a true #1 like Chase, the middle opens up so much more for them as well as forcing safeties deep to open the rushing attack.  

Of course, we need the line improved, but I think no one player can upgrade this offense like Chase.  

Those defenses killed Burrow because they had both the talent and scheme to throw several blitz packages at him that this o-line in no way had the talent (or coaching) to deal with.  Baltimore was bringing safeties that were running free at the quarterback.  The right side was Watt's *****, to absolutely no one's surprise, as Hart has always gotten smoked by any speed rusher.

Everything should not be predicated on Burrow getting the ball out as fast as possible.  I'd much rather give the quarterback more time than weapons.  With more time, a passer (especially one like Joey B) that can see the plays develop will be able to win without an arsenal of receivers.  

If we're honest here, this team isn't really hurting at the WR position.  Even as AJ declined, you had 2 prime targets develop in Boyd and Tee.  How many high-end receivers do we expect to have?  I want 5 or 6, lol.  Unfortunately when it comes to roster building, that will detract from positions of major need like DE, DT, and most importantly OL.  CB is also in the mix.  

If I had to bet money, I would bet a lot that Chase is gong to be a Bengal.  I think between Mikey's love of high-end WRs and Joe's seeming desire to reunite with him, it's practically baked into the cake barring him murdering someone or sustaining a major injury.  I'm probably going to be excited about it, but I still see it as a luxury pick when there are so many other needs.  

At the end of the day, this is a shitty roster.  It's most glaring problem has gone unresolved for 5 seasons.  Taking a 1st overall quarterback when you are at a point of needing one is an excuse not to address the o-line with an early pick.  Taking a WR when you have a shot at the top OL in the draft is definitely not. 

Another thing to consider: last week in the SB, we saw a favored team (KC) get beat like rented mules. Some might blame Mahomes, but even under duress, he was putting the ball in places where his receivers could make plays. KC had all of their vaunted targets healthy. They had the best WR in the NFL in Tyreek Hill. The best TE in Kelce. Two excellent compliments in Watkins and Hardman. On top of that they had CEH and Bell, both capable receivers in the backfield. They also have one of if not the most physically gifted quarterback ever to play the game, and a guy that's been there and won before. So why did they lose despite having the best arsenal of weapons and best QB in the league? Could it be because both starting tackles were out? That alone should illustrate the importance of o-line vs weapons. The best of the best in terms of weapons is worthless without a group that can pass block. No team got anywhere in the playoffs without a line that could do it reasonably well.