I've Got Something to Say

[Wes Mantooth]

It's still real to me God dammit!!!!! (Bonus points to whoever gets this)

Ok, seriously though, here's a bunch of random thoughts on things I think, things I believe, things feel I need to own up, change of opinion, change of heart, hoosker do's, hoosker don'ts, etc. I'm going to ramble here, and, as usual, probably write more than I need to. But I hope some of you find it somewhat worth reading.

1.) I'm sold on this team being a damn good one. I'm firmly convinced they are a (very) good team, with the potential to be great. Luck has nothing to do with it. The schedule has nothing to do with it. A hot streak has nothing to do with it. They simply are a very good team. While I thought the teams of recent year were decent enough, perhaps good as well, I never thought they belonged in conversation with the elite. I do now.

This team, IMHO, deserves very much to be labeled a true contender. Top to bottom, their roster is as good as it gets.

They have a plethora of weapons on offense, they have a upper tier O-Line, and they have a QB who is playing great. Their running backs are above average. Their wideouts are above average. Their tight end is above average. Their OL is above average. Their QB is above average. And they're lead by an OC that, too, is also above average. I cannot sing praise of this offensive group enough.

Their defense, while perhaps not elite, is too well above average. They have a great DL, they have great individual talents, they can pressure the QB, they have a fantastic secondary, and they too are lead by a capable coordinator. If they get Burfict back to form then I can easily this unit returning back to the elite levels they enjoyed under Zimmer.

All in all, I love this team. Shit, even their Punter is good. Their specials teams play, as a whole, is more than solid. I can honestly say that I personally have never seen a Bengals team this good in my adult life. (Fwiw, I'm 36). This is the best team I can remember seeing since 1988. And honestly, I mostly remember the shuffle, Boomer, the Bud Bowl and the 3d glasses from Pepsi from that year. I was 9, it's not as if I was an expert on anything football related.

2.) I was wrong about Andy Dalton.

I always thought that Andy was, at best, average. I thought he was slightly below average as far as skill set, slightly elevated by experience, intelligence, his weapons, and sheer passing volume. Translation = I just didn't think he was that good. Give him great weapons and he could be average or slightly above. Give average or below and he would give you equal results. I never saw is ceiling above being in the 12-15 range. And after last year I thought he belonged in the 17-22 range of QB's. Not true, as we're seeing now.

While I still don't think he's an elite QB, he certainly is playing elite. And my opinion is now that he truly deserves to be considered average at worst, but more than likely above average. My opinion went from average at best to average at worst. And I now do believe he deserves discussion in the Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Tony Romo, level QB's. I'm not saying he's better or worse than any of them, only that IMHO he currently deserved to mentioned in that tier of QB. And that could change, but right now I think Andy is a probably a legitimate 6-10 range QB from a talent standpoint. A 6-10 range QB who is actually producing at a top 3 level.

He's earned his contract moving forward. I was one of a few who hated the deal. I couldn't have hated it more. I hated the urgency, I hated the risk. And you know what? I was wrong. I'll say it again: I was wrong. I even underlined it for you. They made the right move. Hindsight is 20-20, and it's now telling me that they got themselves a nice deal, and their urgency, coupled with frontloading, was a very good decision.

Now, I'm not saying he can't regress. Nor am I saying that I think he becomes a great postseason QB (he could though, I don't know). All I'm really saying is that my ceiling and floor levels for him have completely changed. And no one play can affect this team or inspire confidence more than the QB. For that reason, Andy Dalton's improvement over previous year has allowed me to change my mind about this team's chances more than anything else. If he continues to play in that top 10 level of QB then that, more than anything else, is why this year has a good chance to be different.

3.) I'm not going to get into a ton of Marvin talk. Mainly because a.) this post is already going too long and b.) I'm not in least sold in him.

All that said, he obviously deserves a good deal of credit. He's had his team ready to go. Mentally, they certainly seem well prepared. Guys seem to know their roles, the team seems to have an identity, and more than anything, they seem confident and well composed. Any team that can stage the comeback we saw against Seattle is mentally tough. It takes a veteran team, with a ton of confidence, to stay in a game like that.

I have rolled my eyes on numerous occassions in regards to clock management, and think it's a big problem. One that he needs to fix. And I'm not at all sold on his ability to lead this team in the postseason. (I'll believe it when I see it) But the man has a heckuva team right now. I at least owe him some applause for that.

4.) Lastly, and I'll make this real quick. I wanted to start this thread for a few reasons. I want to own up to a few things and eat some crow so to speak. And I wanted to share some of my own positive thoughts, as I feel some will see that if even I'm pumped up, then that shows just how great this start has been.

But I also wanted to do this as a reminder that I'm an actual Bengals fan. More than anything, I come here to talk football. I love talking sports and I enjoy the debate. So hopefully seeing me say some of what I have will be proof of that. I want people to argue with me or call me a dolt because they think my take sucks or I'm an idiot. I welcome that. I really do. I just don't want people to dismiss something I write only because they think there's some sort of imaginary agenda. It only makes me taking the time to explain myself or my stance a giant waste of time.

Anyways, great start. Here's to it continuing after a week off! Who Dey, *****!!!!

[Johnny Cupcakes]

Ha...that's from that video that you posted in the YouTube thread in klotsch.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

Nicely played, Mr. Jones. It's good to see you buy in. I hope this team can keep proving their doubters wrong (including myself), one by one.

[Fresno B]

[Se ky bengal]

glad your on board

[Se ky bengal]

(10-21-2015, 12:51 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It's still real to me God dammit!!!!!  (Bonus points to whoever gets this)

Ok, seriously though, here's a bunch of random thoughts on things I think, things I believe, things feel I need to own up, change of opinion, change of heart, hoosker do's, hoosker don'ts, etc.  I'm going to ramble here, and, as usual, probably write more than I need to.  But I hope some of you find it somewhat worth reading.

1.) I'm sold on this team being a damn good one.  I'm firmly convinced they are a (very) good team, with the potential to be great.  Luck has nothing to do with it.  The schedule has nothing to do with it.  A hot streak has nothing to do with it.  They simply are a very good team.  While I thought the teams of recent year were decent enough, perhaps good as well, I never thought they belonged in conversation with the elite.  I do now.

This team, IMHO, deserves very much to be labeled a true contender.  Top to bottom, their roster is as good as it gets.  

They have a plethora of weapons on offense, they have a upper tier O-Line, and they have a QB who is playing great.  Their running backs are above average.  Their wideouts are above average.  Their tight end is above average.  Their OL is above average.  Their QB is above average.  And they're lead by an OC that, too, is also above average.  I cannot sing praise of this offensive group enough.  

Their defense, while perhaps not elite, is too well above average.  They have a great DL, they have great individual talents, they can pressure the QB, they have a fantastic secondary, and they too are lead by a capable coordinator.  If they get Burfict back to form then I can easily this unit returning back to the elite levels they enjoyed under Zimmer.

All in all, I love this team.  Shit, even their Punter is good.  Their specials teams play, as a whole, is more than solid.  I can honestly say that I personally have never seen a Bengals team this good in my adult life. (Fwiw, I'm 36).  This is the best team I can remember seeing since 1988. And honestly, I mostly remember the shuffle, Boomer, the Bud Bowl and the 3d glasses from Pepsi from that year.  I was 9, it's not as if I was an expert on anything football related.

2.) I was wrong about Andy Dalton.  

I always thought that Andy was, at best, average.  I thought he was slightly below average as far as skill set, slightly elevated by experience, intelligence, his weapons, and sheer passing volume.  Translation = I just didn't think he was that good.  Give him great weapons and he could be average or slightly above.  Give average or below and he would give you equal results.  I never saw is ceiling above being in the 12-15 range.  And after last year I thought he belonged in the 17-22 range of QB's.  Not true, as we're seeing now.

While I still don't think he's an elite QB, he certainly is playing elite.  And my opinion is now that he truly deserves to be considered average at worst, but more than likely above average.  My opinion went from average at best to average at worst.  And I now do believe he deserves discussion in the Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Tony Romo, level QB's.  I'm not saying he's better or worse than any of them, only that IMHO he currently deserved to mentioned in that tier of QB.  And that could change, but right now I think Andy is a probably a legitimate 6-10 range QB from a talent standpoint.  A 6-10 range QB who is actually producing at a top 3 level.

He's earned his contract moving forward.  I was one of a few who hated the deal.  I couldn't have hated it more.  I hated the urgency, I hated the risk.  And you know what?  I was wrong.  I'll say it again:  I was wrong.  I even underlined it for you.  They made the right move.  Hindsight is 20-20, and it's now telling me that they got themselves a nice deal, and their urgency, coupled with frontloading, was a very good decision.

Now, I'm not saying he can't regress.  Nor am I saying that I think he becomes a great postseason QB (he could though, I don't know).  All I'm really saying is that my ceiling and floor levels for him have completely changed.  And no one play can affect this team or inspire confidence more than the QB.  For that reason, Andy Dalton's improvement over previous year has allowed me to change my mind about this team's chances more than anything else.  If he continues to play in that top 10 level of QB then that, more than anything else, is why this year has a good chance to be different.

3.) I'm not going to get into a ton of Marvin talk.  Mainly because a.) this post is already going too long and b.) I'm not in least sold in him.

All that said, he obviously deserves a good deal of credit.  He's had his team ready to go.  Mentally, they certainly seem well prepared.  Guys seem to know their roles, the team seems to have an identity, and more than anything, they seem confident and well composed.  Any team that can stage the comeback we saw against Seattle is mentally tough.  It takes a veteran team, with a ton of confidence, to stay in a game like that.  

I have rolled my eyes on numerous occassions in regards to clock management, and think it's a big problem.  One that he needs to fix.  And I'm not at all sold on his ability to lead this team in the postseason. (I'll believe it when I see it)  But the man has a heckuva team right now.  I at least owe him some applause for that.

4.) Lastly, and I'll make this real quick.  I wanted to start this thread for a few reasons.  I want to own up to a few things and eat some crow so to speak.  And I wanted to share some of my own positive thoughts, as I feel some will see that if even I'm pumped up, then that shows just how great this start has been.

But I also wanted to do this as a reminder that I'm an actual Bengals fan.  More than anything, I come here to talk football.  I love talking sports and I enjoy the debate.  So hopefully seeing me say some of what I have will be proof of that.  I want people to argue with me or call me a dolt because they think my take sucks or I'm an idiot.  I welcome that.  I really do.  I just don't want people to dismiss something I write only because they think there's some sort of imaginary agenda.  It only makes me taking the time to explain myself or my stance a giant waste of time.

Anyways, great start.  Here's to it continuing after a week off!  Who Dey, *****!!!!

One question , why you drop the toast jones  name 

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-21-2015, 01:10 AM)Se ky bengal Wrote: One question , why you drop the toast jones  name 

Not sure really.  When there was a new board I just figured I'd pick a new name.  I never did really like Toast Jones anyways, I just hurriedly picked it to see who'd remember Rod Jones.  And I hated being connected with Fred in any way (Toast vs Toast). LOL.

I was kinda thinking about just changing it up occasionally.

[Element]

I came in here for the bonus point, its from the wrestling fan video

[Se ky bengal]

(10-21-2015, 01:24 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Not sure really.  When there was a new board I just figured I'd pick a new name.  I never did really like Toast Jones anyways, I just hurriedly picked it to see who'd remember Rod Jones.  And I hated being connected with Fred in any way (Toast vs Toast). LOL.

I was kinda thinking about just changing it up occasionally.

 Dead at connected with fred. 

[*Go Cards*]

This team is rock solid on offense and believe just enough talent on defensive side.

Just can not endure all the injuries Bengals have suffered last few years.

Always will be some but it was absurd last few years, especially so many stars.

This year could be special if they stay healthy.

[Eraserhead]

You're gonna stand there, ownin' a fireworks stand, and tell me you don't have no whistlin' bungholes, no spleen splitters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, hoosker doos, hoosker don'ts, cherry bombs, nipsy daisers, with or without the scooter stick, or one single whistlin' kitty chaser?

[Donnyho]

[Atomic Orange]

All I kept reading between the lines was

"I want on the bandwagon before it's too late yet i wish to keep my options open in case it isn't".

FWIW Toast, this has been the best Bengals team probably of all time going on five years now. Sure they failed in the playoffs but IMO they never deserved the venom the haters (you being a big one) ,spewed week in/out on the old forum. The realist's realize that the team was a mess for a decade plus and the laughing stock of the entire sports world.

It takes time to clime out of the ashes from that you know? Maybe you expected a little too much out of our rookie quarterback coming into a bad situation yet still managing to lead the team to the playoffs not only in his rookie year but every year since. All the while never having veteran leadership to learn anything from. It appears he has put it all together in year 5 which would have been par back in the olden days when QB's sat behind veterans for a year or two. Aaron Rodgers had that benefit behind Favre and it paid off great for him because honestly I saw nothing in him that lead me to believe he would become the QB he is today and i'm sure many Packer fans would agree. Decent yes, on par with Brett Favre? No. Better than Brett Favre? HELL NO. So yeah sometimes it just takes time.

I personally have been hard on Marvin in the past but i came to the realization that the guy is pretty strapped operating under the antique which is Mike Brown. The truth is he is probably the savior of this small market NFL franchise so he deserves dome props as well.

Anyway, it's all just football man. A game for the players and entertainment for the fans. No sense in getting bent out of shape to the extreme one way or the other.

[Luvnit2]

(10-21-2015, 12:51 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It's still real to me God dammit!!!!!  (Bonus points to whoever gets this)

Ok, seriously though, here's a bunch of random thoughts on things I think, things I believe, things feel I need to own up, change of opinion, change of heart, hoosker do's, hoosker don'ts, etc.  I'm going to ramble here, and, as usual, probably write more than I need to.  But I hope some of you find it somewhat worth reading.

1.) I'm sold on this team being a damn good one.  I'm firmly convinced they are a (very) good team, with the potential to be great.  Luck has nothing to do with it.  The schedule has nothing to do with it.  A hot streak has nothing to do with it.  They simply are a very good team.  While I thought the teams of recent year were decent enough, perhaps good as well, I never thought they belonged in conversation with the elite.  I do now.

This team, IMHO, deserves very much to be labeled a true contender.  Top to bottom, their roster is as good as it gets.  

They have a plethora of weapons on offense, they have a upper tier O-Line, and they have a QB who is playing great.  Their running backs are above average.  Their wideouts are above average.  Their tight end is above average.  Their OL is above average.  Their QB is above average.  And they're lead by an OC that, too, is also above average.  I cannot sing praise of this offensive group enough.  

Their defense, while perhaps not elite, is too well above average.  They have a great DL, they have great individual talents, they can pressure the QB, they have a fantastic secondary, and they too are lead by a capable coordinator.  If they get Burfict back to form then I can easily this unit returning back to the elite levels they enjoyed under Zimmer.

All in all, I love this team.  Shit, even their Punter is good.  Their specials teams play, as a whole, is more than solid.  I can honestly say that I personally have never seen a Bengals team this good in my adult life. (Fwiw, I'm 36).  This is the best team I can remember seeing since 1988. And honestly, I mostly remember the shuffle, Boomer, the Bud Bowl and the 3d glasses from Pepsi from that year.  I was 9, it's not as if I was an expert on anything football related.

2.) I was wrong about Andy Dalton.  

I always thought that Andy was, at best, average.  I thought he was slightly below average as far as skill set, slightly elevated by experience, intelligence, his weapons, and sheer passing volume.  Translation = I just didn't think he was that good.  Give him great weapons and he could be average or slightly above.  Give average or below and he would give you equal results.  I never saw is ceiling above being in the 12-15 range.  And after last year I thought he belonged in the 17-22 range of QB's.  Not true, as we're seeing now.

While I still don't think he's an elite QB, he certainly is playing elite.  And my opinion is now that he truly deserves to be considered average at worst, but more than likely above average.  My opinion went from average at best to average at worst.  And I now do believe he deserves discussion in the Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Tony Romo, level QB's.  I'm not saying he's better or worse than any of them, only that IMHO he currently deserved to mentioned in that tier of QB.  And that could change, but right now I think Andy is a probably a legitimate 6-10 range QB from a talent standpoint.  A 6-10 range QB who is actually producing at a top 3 level.

He's earned his contract moving forward.  I was one of a few who hated the deal.  I couldn't have hated it more.  I hated the urgency, I hated the risk.  And you know what?  I was wrong.  I'll say it again:  I was wrong.  I even underlined it for you.  They made the right move.  Hindsight is 20-20, and it's now telling me that they got themselves a nice deal, and their urgency, coupled with frontloading, was a very good decision.

Now, I'm not saying he can't regress.  Nor am I saying that I think he becomes a great postseason QB (he could though, I don't know).  All I'm really saying is that my ceiling and floor levels for him have completely changed.  And no one play can affect this team or inspire confidence more than the QB.  For that reason, Andy Dalton's improvement over previous year has allowed me to change my mind about this team's chances more than anything else.  If he continues to play in that top 10 level of QB then that, more than anything else, is why this year has a good chance to be different.

3.) I'm not going to get into a ton of Marvin talk.  Mainly because a.) this post is already going too long and b.) I'm not in least sold in him.

All that said, he obviously deserves a good deal of credit.  He's had his team ready to go.  Mentally, they certainly seem well prepared.  Guys seem to know their roles, the team seems to have an identity, and more than anything, they seem confident and well composed.  Any team that can stage the comeback we saw against Seattle is mentally tough.  It takes a veteran team, with a ton of confidence, to stay in a game like that.  

I have rolled my eyes on numerous occassions in regards to clock management, and think it's a big problem.  One that he needs to fix.  And I'm not at all sold on his ability to lead this team in the postseason. (I'll believe it when I see it)  But the man has a heckuva team right now.  I at least owe him some applause for that.

4.) Lastly, and I'll make this real quick.  I wanted to start this thread for a few reasons.  I want to own up to a few things and eat some crow so to speak.  And I wanted to share some of my own positive thoughts, as I feel some will see that if even I'm pumped up, then that shows just how great this start has been.

But I also wanted to do this as a reminder that I'm an actual Bengals fan.  More than anything, I come here to talk football.  I love talking sports and I enjoy the debate.  So hopefully seeing me say some of what I have will be proof of that.  I want people to argue with me or call me a dolt because they think my take sucks or I'm an idiot.  I welcome that.  I really do.  I just don't want people to dismiss something I write only because they think there's some sort of imaginary agenda.  It only makes me taking the time to explain myself or my stance a giant waste of time.

Anyways, great start.  Here's to it continuing after a week off!  Who Dey, *****!!!!

Who hacked into the Toast account?

I applaud you admitting you were wrong. I make mistakes daily and say many dumb things in these Bengals forums.

But, we are alike as are most of us, we are fans first who love to talk football.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-21-2015, 08:49 AM)Atomic Orange Wrote: All I kept reading between the lines was

"I want on the bandwagon before it's too late yet i wish to keep my options open in case it isn't".

First of all, there is no bandwagon when you're talking about a team that 1.) Has never won a Superbowl. 2.) Hasn't won a playoff game in 25 years and 3.) is almost the opposite of trendy, in terms of fashion and coverage.

Imagine telling someone in real life, far removed from the anonymity of this message board, that they're a bandwagon fan if they told you the following:  Been following a team for over 30 years.  Born and raised in city of team.  Current resident of said city.  Could tell you every single first round pick, along with their position and college, with no help whatsoever, for the last 25 years.  Owns multiple jersey's, hats, shirts, signed balls and cards, cups, coasters, etc.  Is a former season ticket holder.  POST ON A FAN MESSAGE BOARD THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!!. Imagine telling the guy he's a bandwagon fan for complimenting the team after 6 games.

Seriously, think about it.  A lifelong resident of the city, who currently supports the team through tax dollars and has previously supported them through ticket and merchandise sales.  Someone who has spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours debating all things Bengals on a fan forum. That fan is a bandwagon fan?

You have got to be out of your mind.  What you really mean to say is that no one in your opinion is a real fan unless they root for the team they way you do.  Because there is nothing bandwagon about anything I've said or done previously.  And if I did hop on it would have been weeks ago when I had similarly positive post, praising the season.

What I find most comical is the idea that I need to "ask" permission to do anything.  Like, yeah, I really needed to log on here during the season, even though I hardly ever post in season, to make sure it was cool with you guys if I was more sold on this team and if I were more positive about their chances.  Yup, better get on JN to check to see if it's ok that I think this team is a contender.  I hope they stamp my pass.   :crazy:

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-21-2015, 08:49 AM)Atomic Orange Wrote: Anyway, it's all just football man.  A game for the players and entertainment for the fans. No sense in getting bent out of shape to the extreme one way or the other.

No sense in calling into question other's fanhood and throwing around the term "bandwagon" either, when someone is only try to own up to things they were wrong on, and trying to positive.

You can't shit all over my intentions, label me as having an agenda, and then tell me to not take it too seriously.  You yourself are the one is taking it too seriously.  You be the fan you want to be, do it your way.  I'll do the same.  How others root, support and follow the team should be of no concern to you.  There is no one way to do it.  There aren't right and wrong ways either.  Quit taking the sport so personally.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-21-2015, 09:57 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: First of all, there is no bandwagon when you're talking about a team that 1.) Has never won a Superbowl. 2.) Hasn't won a playoff game in 25 years and 3.) is almost the opposite of trendy, in terms of fashion and coverage.

Imagine telling someone in real life, far removed from the anonymity of this message board, that they're a bandwagon fan if they told you the following:  Been following a team for over 30 years.  Born and raised in city of team.  Current resident of said city.  Could tell you every single first round pick, along with their position and college, with no help whatsoever, for the last 25 years.  Owns multiple jersey's, hats, shirts, signed balls and cards, cups, coasters, etc.  Is a former season ticket holder.  POST ON A FAN MESSAGE BOARD THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!!.  Imagine telling the guy he's a bandwagon fan for complimenting the team after 6 games.

Seriously, think about it.  A lifelong resident of the city, who currently supports the team through tax dollars and has previously supported them through ticket and merchandise sales.  Someone who has spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours debating all things Bengals on a fan forum. That fan is a bandwagon fan?

You have got to be out of your mind.  What you really mean to say is that no one in your opinion is a real fan unless they root for the team they way you do.  Because there is nothing bandwagon about anything I've said or done previously.  And if I did hop on it would have been weeks ago when I had similarly positive post, praising the season.

What I find most comical is the idea that I need to "ask" permission to do anything.  Like, yeah, I really needed to log on here during the season, even though I hardly ever post in season, to make sure it was cool with you guys if I was more sold on this team and if I were more positive about their chances.  Yup, better get on JN to check to see if it's ok that I think this team is a contender.  I hope they stamp my pass.   :crazy:

I won't call any Bengals fan a "bandwagon jumper".  Hasn't been much of a wagon to jump on.  All I will say is that the "homers" and "extremists" have been somewhat vindicated.  What was obvious to us as gradual improvement by a young team wasn't so obvious to some of you.  As you admitted, let's just say I'm glad you were wrong.  

Who Dey!

[Atomic Orange]

"What you really mean to say is that no one in your opinion is a real fan unless they root for the team they way you do."

Not at all. What i said was

"Anyway, it's all just football man. A game for the players and entertainment for the fans. No sense in getting bent out of shape to the extreme one way or the other."

And what i meant by that was:

It's my opinion that calling our young QB "Noodle Arm" over and over and over is unwarranted (as I explained "why" in the rest of my post) and only serves to create negative vibes within the community. Sure be upset if he has a bad game no problem. It's the EXTREME that you and others went to that is getting called out.

It's not unlike bullying and i loathe bullying. Say your peace and move on. Simple.

Otherwise, you get caught looking like a fool when Dalton starts playing great ,and have to apologize or whatever your initial rant was while the believers (homers or whatever) were right all along.

[djs7685]

(10-21-2015, 10:27 AM)Atomic Orange Wrote: Otherwise, you get caught looking like a fool when Dalton starts playing great ,and have to apologize or whatever your initial rant was while the believers (homers or whatever) were right all along.

Andy playing great right now doesn't make analysis from his game over a different 4 year span "wrong" though. I don't know why people keep shoving it in the face of others as a "HA TOLD YOU SO!!!", whenever it's not a "told you so" whatsoever.

Toast was wrong that Andy wouldn't improve or whatever exactly he said in the past. However, Andy's play in 2015 doesn't automatically make Toast's analysis of his play from 2011 - 2014 wrong, not even slightly. The only thing that people can get on others for being so "wrong" about was when people would claim that Andy could never improve and that he hit his ceiling already.

[CoCoNuT]

(10-21-2015, 12:51 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: And I now do believe he deserves discussion in the Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Tony Romo, level QB's.  I'm not saying he's better or worse than any of them, only that IMHO he currently deserved to mentioned in that tier of QB.  And that could change, but right now I think Andy is a probably a legitimate 6-10 range QB from a talent standpoint.  A 6-10 range QB who is actually producing at a top 3 level.

He is producing at a top 3 level, I would say that means he is elite.

Who do you have in your top 3 anyway?