I've Got Something to Say

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-21-2015, 10:37 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy playing great right now doesn't make analysis from his game over a different 4 year span "wrong" though. I don't know why people keep shoving it in the face of others as a "HA TOLD YOU SO!!!", whenever it's not a "told you so" whatsoever.

Toast was wrong that Andy wouldn't improve or whatever exactly he said in the past. However, Andy's play in 2015 doesn't automatically make Toast's analysis of his play from 2011 - 2014 wrong, not even slightly. The only thing that people can get on others for being so "wrong" about was when people would claim that Andy could never improve and that he hit his ceiling already.

Sure it does.  Dude was a young QB.  He wasn't a seasoned vet putting up those numbers.  That's why I though the criticism was dumb.  In the context of a young QB, his numbers were pretty damned good.  That's why I could not understand all the hate.  My guess is it had more to do with the playoff losses.  

[djs7685]

(10-21-2015, 10:41 AM)CoCoNuT Wrote: He is producing at a top 3 level, I would say that means he is elite.

Who do you have in your top 3 anyway?

For 6 games.

IMO, some people (like you) throw out the word "elite" too casually. You need some sort of sustained success to be considered elite. I can't fathom using the e-word on a guy without him playing even ONE full season at this level.

I have no problem with anyone saying that he's performing at an elite level, because he is. Calling him "elite" at this point is insanity. Give it some more time and you'll have a case for that.

[djs7685]

(10-21-2015, 10:43 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Sure it does.  Dude was a young QB.  He wasn't a seasoned vet putting up those numbers.  That's why I though the criticism was dumb.  In the context of a young QB, his numbers were pretty damned good.  That's why I could not understand all the hate.  My guess is it had more to do with the playoff losses.  

Sure it doesn't. You didn't even understand my post apparently, because your response is off the wall.

Andy playing well in 2015 doesn't mean the criticism for his mishaps in 2011 - 2014 weren't valid critiques. I'm not talking about the guys saying he's a dog shit QB that needs cut or the guys saying he'll never improve. The constructed criticism in say, 2012, was still warranted though he's playing at an elite level in 2015.

What's happening in 2015 could mean that predictions in 2012 were wrong, but it doesn't make analysis of what actually happened in 2012 "wrong". Get it? No. I insulted your baby, so you don't get it.

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-21-2015, 10:44 AM)djs7685 Wrote: For 6 games.

IMO, some people (like you) throw out the word "elite" too casually. You need some sort of sustained success to be considered elite. I can't fathom using the e-word on a guy without him playing even ONE full season at this level.

I have no problem with anyone saying that he's performing at an elite level, because he is. Calling him "elite" at this point is insanity. Give it some more time and you'll have a case for that.

Thank you.  Yes, Andy is playing great and everyone is happy with his play so far this year.  This year, though six games... is he on pace to be in the MVP discussion this year?  Yes, he most certainly is.  Through six games... 

Is he an "elite" quarterback?  No, not yet.  Is he in the same realm of a Brady or Rogers?  No, not yet.  Let's at least let him carry these type of numbers through an entire season before we anoint him.

[Atomic Orange]

(10-21-2015, 10:37 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy playing great right now doesn't make analysis from his game over a different 4 year span "wrong" though. I don't know why people keep shoving it in the face of others as a "HA TOLD YOU SO!!!", whenever it's not a "told you so" whatsoever.

Toast was wrong that Andy wouldn't improve or whatever exactly he said in the past. However, Andy's play in 2015 doesn't automatically make Toast's analysis of his play from 2011 - 2014 wrong, not even slightly. The only thing that people can get on others for being so "wrong" about was when people would claim that Andy could never improve and that he hit his ceiling already.

I have to get back to work but before I do, never once did i say "HA TOLD YOU SO!!!".  Look, I am sensing this is going to be a message board gang up and I don't do those. I have said all i have to say anyway which is Dalton has been a fine young QB all along for us. Not elite not terrible, average to above average who is playing elite through 6 games in 2015. 

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-21-2015, 10:46 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Sure it doesn't. You didn't even understand my post apparently, because your response is off the wall.

Andy playing well in 2015 doesn't mean the criticism for his mishaps in 2011 - 2014 weren't valid critiques. I'm not talking about the guys saying he's a dog shit QB that needs cut or the guys saying he'll never improve. The constructed criticism in say, 2012, was still warranted though he's playing at an elite level in 2015.

What's happening in 2015 could mean that predictions in 2012 were wrong, but it doesn't make analysis of what actually happened in 2012 "wrong". Get it? No. I insulted your baby, so you don't get it.

What happened in 2012 that was so horrible coming from a second year QB?  Please tell me.  

[djs7685]

(10-21-2015, 10:49 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: What happened in 2012 that was so horrible coming from a second year QB?  Please tell me.  

Strawman argument.

I never said anything was "so horrible".

I merely stated that any constructed criticism or critiques of his 2012 (or 2011, 2013, 2014) play aren't nullified and "wrong" just because of his 2015 performance at an elite level.

If you don't understand that simple logic, I don't know what else I can tell you.

Let me ask you a question, this has nothing to do with Andy, but the logic behind this argument in general. If Geno Smith comes back, has a 150 passer rating on the way to a Super Bowl win, does that mean that everybody's analysis of his 2013 season is now "WRONG"?? No. Not at all. Again, Andy has obviously been much better than someone like Geno Smith, but the argument stands as-is. Past analysis isn't made wrong by future performance. Predictions could be wrong, but the analysis is what it is.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-21-2015, 10:54 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Strawman argument.

I never said anything was "so horrible".

I merely stated that any constructed criticism or critiques of his 2012 (or 2011, 2013, 2014) play aren't nullified and "wrong" just because of his 2015 performance at an elite level.

If you don't understand that simple logic, I don't know what else I can tell you.

Let me ask you a question, this has nothing to do with Andy, but the logic behind this argument in general. If Geno Smith comes back, has a 150 passer rating on the way to a Super Bowl win, does that mean that everybody's analysis of his 2013 season is now "WRONG"?? No. Not at all. Again, Andy has obviously been much better than someone like Geno Smith, but the argument stands as-is. Past analysis isn't made wrong by future performance. Predictions could be wrong, but the analysis is what it is.

You mean the Geno Smith who has never had a passer rating in the 80s?  The Geno Smith who has more ints thrown in his career than TDs?  

I would say "yeah".  They were justified in being critical of his past performances.  Maybe even to the point of dreaming for his backup to replace him.  

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-21-2015, 10:41 AM)CoCoNuT Wrote: He is producing at a top 3 level, I would say that means he is elite.

Who do you have in your top 3 anyway?

Just to be clear, in the context you quoted I was talking about overall skillset and ability. Not the current level of play.  Sorry, I'm sure my explanation is more confusing than it needs to be.

Simply put, I feel that Andy falls somewhere in the 6-10 range QB, in terms of overall value, who is currently producing at a top 3 level.  If I had to rank the QB's right now, in terms of overall worth/talent, he would fall somewhere in that group of 6-10.  That's not to say he's not playing like an elite QB right now.  I just don't have him there moving forward.

Since you asked, my current top 3 are as follows:

1.) Aaron Rodgers
2.) Tom Brady
3.) Phillip Rivers

I kind of evaluate QB's in tiers or groupings.  Those top 2 would be tier 1, although in previous years I would have lumped Brees and Manning in that tier.  This year I think those two are in a class of their own.  Then in the next tier I would have guys like Rivers, Sir Rapes A-Lot, Brees, and maybe Romo when healthy.  Then following that I would have a grouping of Andy, Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, and believe or not, Carson Palmer.

The way I value QB is always changing.  I simply try to group them together for it to make sense. Some years one group may have 5 guys and the next it may have 2, or 3.  Regardless, I do now think Andy is on par with the names listed above.  And coming from me, one of his harsher critics, that should serve as decent praise.

[djs7685]

(10-21-2015, 10:57 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: You mean the Geno Smith who has never had a passer rating in the 80s?  The Geno Smith who has more ints thrown in his career than TDs?  

I would say "yeah".  They were justified in being critical of his past performances.  Maybe even to the point of dreaming for his backup to replace him.  

Which is exactly my point. Thanks.

If I critiqued Andy's playoff performance in 2012, or if I critiqued Andy's pocket awareness from 2011 - 2013, or if I critiqued his placement on intermediate passes from 2011 - 2014, it doesn't mean that I was "wrong" about all of that stuff just because he improved upon them in 2015.

That was my point. Nothing more, nothing less. A lot of people around here have been throwing out little "told ya so!" messages where they don't necessarily belong. I said before, you can say that Toast deserves a bit of that for his prediction that Andy couldn't/wouldn't improve or whatever, but he doesn't deserve it for any of his objective analysis from 2011 - 2014. Other than joking about his "noodle arm" and stuff, Toast always seemed at least somewhat fair in his analysis, but maybe not his predictions.

Just because you overrated Andy years ago doesn't mean that you were justified in that now that he's actually playing great football. You still overrated the guy in the past, and that doesn't change with his future performances.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-21-2015, 11:03 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Which is exactly my point. Thanks.

If I critiqued Andy's playoff performance in 2012, or if I critiqued Andy's pocket awareness from 2011 - 2013, or if I critiqued his placement on intermediate passes from 2011 - 2014, it doesn't mean that I was "wrong" about all of that stuff just because he improved upon them in 2015.

That was my point. Nothing more, nothing less. A lot of people around here have been throwing out little "told ya so!" messages where they don't necessarily belong. I said before, you can say that Toast deserves a bit of that for his prediction that Andy couldn't/wouldn't improve or whatever, but he doesn't deserve it for any of his objective analysis from 2011 - 2014. Other than joking about his "noodle arm" and stuff, Toast always seemed at least somewhat fair in his analysis, but maybe not his predictions.

Just because you overrated Andy years ago doesn't mean that you were justified in that now that he's actually playing great football. You still overrated the guy in the past, and that doesn't change with his future performances.

Lol.  I didn't "overrate" Dalton.  I saw him for what he was, whereas people so blinded by 4 playoff losses subjectively wrote him off.  

[grampahol]

I'll just say this team is the greatest thing since sliced bread and I remember when bread was sliced for the first time. Now if they can only surpass sliced bread ..

That serrated knife, whole loaf of bread. ..it was a hell of an event ..the entire world held its breath ..

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-21-2015, 10:49 AM)Atomic Orange Wrote: I have said all i have to say anyway which is Dalton has been a fine young QB all along for us. Not elite not terrible, average to above average who is playing elite through 6 games in 2015. 

And here's where the disconnect lies.  While you have thought that he's been average or above all along, or in entirety, someone like myself will be quick to remind you of last year.  Now I guess you can choose to debate that idea, but I'm not sure you can just gloss over it and it attribute it to blind hate either.

Just from a number standpoint, here's where he's ranked in QB rating in each of his 4 years:

2011 (Rookie Year) - 20
2012 - 13
2013 - 15
2014 - 25

Composite average - 18

Now, I don't really feel like I actually engaging in an actual debate about the worth of these numbers along with the relevance of rookie seasons, injuries, loads of talent, loss of talent, playcalling, etc.  The only point of this is to illustrate that the idea that he has always been average or above is simply not true.  He was nowhere near average last year.  Not from a rating standpoint, not from a yardage standpoint, nor from a TD or INT standpoint.

Without overcomplicating my stance let me just say that my opinion has always come primarily from simply watching the game.  Numbers aside, what I saw shaped my opinion.  And that opinion was that Andy Dalton was an average at best QB, who at times was elevated by above average talent around him.  That was my take. 

I currently think, while some of his atributes are far from elite, he is making up for that with stellar decision making.  I've seen him numerous time make the smart play, that many QB's in this league don't make.  I think he seems more poised and patient in the pocket.  I also get the impression that he's just all together more confidence and comfortable in the pocket.  He has made a leap that I didn't think he was capable of making.  I've never seen this level of play sustained for than a couple of games.  Until now.

While I certainly don't think I was wrong on everything I've said or thought previously, and I think I was fair, I was wrong on Andy's ceiling. He is currently proving me wrong on that. As well as he is proving me wrong the decision to give him an early deal.

[grampahol]

Right off the top of my head I can't think of too many below average QBs who took their teams to the playoffs every season they've been in the league.

[OrlandoBengal]

Only on this board could someone write an entire post saying "I was wrong" and people jump all over him saying "I told you so".

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-21-2015, 11:42 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Only on this board could someone write an entire post saying "I was wrong" and people jump all over him saying "I told you so".

The price you pay for being wrong on a message board.    

[spazz70]

(10-21-2015, 10:49 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Thank you.  Yes, Andy is playing great and everyone is happy with his play so far this year.  This year, though six games... is he on pace to be in the MVP discussion this year?  Yes, he most certainly is.  Through six games... 

Is he an "elite" quarterback?  No, not yet.  Is he in the same realm of a Brady or Rogers?  No, not yet.  Let's at least let him carry these type of numbers through an entire season before we anoint him.

Not even elite QBs carry these numbers throughout an entire season...So why should Dalton?  If Dalton ended the season with around 100 Rating for the season would you be happy?  he is going to have up and down games... Romo was the highest rated QB last year at 113... Brady was below 100 and won the SB...Rodgers was at 112...i am not saying he is elite and I do not expect him to carry these numbers throughout the season...I have said that all along that Dalton is good enough and smart enough with the talent (healthy) around him to take this team a long way...

I believe that next week in Pittsburgh will be the ultimate test for this team...The nemesis of this franchise

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Props to you Wes for admitting you are wrong on some points and eating crow.

I must say that i was definately not sold on Dalton either after last season but i think i am wrong as well.

He looks to have improved in every aspect, pocket awareness, reading Defense's, calling audibles, passing overall, decision making and as a leader maybe the most. The entire team has his back and respect for him and he finally seems to have that swagger.

Also, completely agree on Marv, i am not sold on him either but he can put one hell of a team together.

[CornerBlitz]

(10-21-2015, 11:54 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The price you pay for being wrong on a message board.    

C'mom man. The funny thing is ToastJones wasn't necessarily wrong in prior years. His analysis of Dalton and the Bengals the past 4 years were pretty much on point. This is the first year that people like me and Toast are being proven wrong and for that we are ecstatic because it means the Bengals and Dalton are playing extremely well.  

The homers are the ones who have issues and always want to argue even when there is nothing to argue about. Look I'll be the first to admit just like Toast that I never saw this version of Dalton coming, especially after the horrendous season he had last year but for that I'm happy and am glad he's proving me wrong....all of you should just accept that move on.

As others have mentioned if a mediocre QB comes out and plays lights out that doesn't make his past performance better. It just goes to show you that he's improved and is playing well. Let's just hope it continues and he's finally the QB that all of us want him to be.

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-21-2015, 12:03 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Not even elite QBs carry these numbers throughout an entire season...So why should Dalton?  If Dalton ended the season with around 100 Rating for the season would you be happy?  he is going to have up and down games... Romo was the highest rated QB last year at 113... Brady was below 100 and won the SB...Rodgers was at 112...i am not saying he is elite and I do not expect him to carry these numbers throughout the season...I have said that all along that Dalton is good enough and smart enough with the talent (healthy) around him to take this team a long way...

I believe that next week in Pittsburgh will be the ultimate test for this team...The nemesis of this franchise

Actually, they do.  Guys like Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees... they have all had multiple years that they are well over 100 rating.  I am not detracting from what Dalton has done this year, I have readily said he is playing great.  Just saying that six games does not put him into the top tier of quarterbacks.