Are the Bengals better today than before free agency

[bengals67]

I don't see that they are but would love to hear from those more knowledgeable than me on this board.

[WeezyBengal]

No.

They are better at O line. That's it.

PFF overall improvement index has them at a -.3 from last years team so far since free agency.

I know people aren't all in on pro football focus, but it gives you an idea of where we are at. Still a lot of work left to do.

[Fulcher_33]

(03-23-2021, 02:11 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: No.

They are better at O line. That's it.

PFF overall improvement index has them at a -.3 from last years team so far since free agency.

I know people aren't all in on pro football focus, but it gives you an idea of where we are at. Still a lot of work left to do.

Yeah, never seen so many people throw around PFF when talking about football then on this board. Its amazing. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-23-2021, 02:11 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: No.

They are better at O line. That's it.

PFF overall improvement index has them at a -.3 from last years team so far since free agency.

I know people aren't all in on pro football focus, but it gives you an idea of where we are at. Still a lot of work left to do.

I'd argue they aren't even really better on OL yet either.
They upgraded RT, but they downgraded at OG given they are back to XSF and Jordan as the starters.

Their pass catchers are worse without AJ Green.

The DL and CB replacements are not really better than what they had, but they are rather close in skill.
The hope is that Reader and Waynes returning will be the keys to improving the defense at this point.

Bengals need 1-2 OL and 1 WR to improve over last year.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-23-2021, 02:17 PM)Fulcher_33 Wrote: Yeah, never seen so many people throw around PFF when talking about football then on this board. Its amazing. 

What other sport would they use PFF for? 

[MileHighGrowler]

I'd argue it's a draw at this point, contingent on how the draft plays out. I know some are very excited about the players acquired, but bearing in mind who is no longer on the roster from a year ago and I don't personally much or any improvement. They basically swapped players to this point without adding additional depth, and they've lost some players that haven't yet been replaced.

It's been an active FA period, and some of the moves have helped the cap, but beyond that I just really have a hard time saying the roster has truly improved because a lot of guys left or have been cut.

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 02:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd argue they aren't even really better on OL yet either.
They upgraded RT, but they downgraded at OG given they are back to XSF and Jordan as the starters.

Their pass catchers are worse without AJ Green.

The DL and CB replacements are not really better than what they had, but they are rather close in skill.
The hope is that Reader and Waynes returning will be the keys to improving the defense at this point.

Bengals need 1-2 OL and 1 WR to improve over last year.

Couple things...

XSF played better than Spain last year, so switching back to him full time makes us better slightly assuming Jordan is a constant.

AJ Green performed below replacement level last year, so one could literally argue having AJ in versus almost anyone was worse last year.

The other thing worth mentioning is that everyone we added has playoff experience which matters in trying to get a young team over the hump. I think it's tough to say we are better or worse yet without knowing more about the plan as a whole. I get the feeling on defense specifically we will be better because a zone blitzing zone scheme similar to Pittsburgh may be in the plan, and in that case I think I like the personnel.

[Fulcher_33]

(03-23-2021, 02:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What other sport would they use PFF for? 

Uh how about not relying on PFF as a be all end all when it comes to players....... 

They never saw X player play, watched any tape, or looked at any other outlets, but PFF graded him bad he must suck....  

[Sled21]

I'd argue we upgraded at DE. Lawson and Hendrickson may be equal players, but Lawson can't stay on the field. 
I'd argue that Waynes, Hilton and Awuzie are better than WJIII, Alexander and Sims. And Hilton is definitely an upgrade when it comes to blitzing, and we won't see many arm tackle attempts from this guy. (And we may very well re-sign Alexander)
I'd argue that Ogunjobi will be more effective than Geno was last year. 
There's no doubt Reiff is worlds above Bobby Hart.

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 02:17 PM)Fulcher_33 Wrote: Yeah, never seen so many people throw around PFF when talking about football then on this board. Its amazing. 

You will be shocked to learn every team in the league is currently using their data in various ways. It's not the end-all, but considering 90% of fans don't actually understand what they are looking at the outside of their macro understanding of football it helps contextualize things. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-23-2021, 02:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: Couple things...

XSF played better than Spain last year, so switching back to him full time makes us better slightly assuming Jordan is a constant.

AJ Green performed below replacement level last year, so one could literally argue having AJ in versus almost anyone was worse last year.

The other thing worth mentioning is that everyone we added has playoff experience which matters in trying to get a young team over the hump. I think it's tough to say we are better or worse yet without knowing more about the plan as a whole. I get the feeling on defense specifically we will be better because a zone blitzing zone scheme similar to Pittsburgh may be in the plan, and in that case I think I like the personnel.

This, plus Geno was non-existent last year and so was our pass rush. So getting LO and moving him to his proper spot, 3-tech
and adding a DE that can actually get to the QB is huge. We had 17 sacks last season as a team. These 2 guys had 16 on their
own. I know I have argued that sacks aren't everything but those are still baffling numbers.

Also, who knows if getting Awuzie, a Zone Corner will be an upgrade over a WJ3 who was only good in Man.

Hilton some have argued is better than Alexander even if I really hated losing him.

Reiff is clearly better than Hart and it opens up the Draft, this signing made everything much better. Add a Guard and another
End and I think this has been a fine FA that can be made even better with a good to great Draft.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-23-2021, 02:34 PM)Fulcher_33 Wrote: Uh how about not relying on PFF as a be all end all when it comes to players....... 

They never saw X player play, watched any tape, or looked at any other outlets, but PFF graded him bad he must suck....  

PFF are closer to being experts than you or I will be. They have dedicated workers who analyze every single snap on a player.
And you say "never saw X player play, watched any tape, or looked at any other outlets," which typically isn't true. Almost everyone watches SOME tape.
But it would take hours upon hours for someone to watch ALL tape on a player, which a lot of people don't have or want to invest. As such, they look elsewhere to get an assessment of a person/company that does.

If you want to spend as much time as PFF does watching and analyzing every snap and coming to your own conclusion, that's your choice. But don't down someone else because they don't want to take the same approach.

[Joelist]

This forum is almost the only place I see PFF cited as anything other than a source of laughter.

That said, yes the team right now is better. Are more pieces needed? Yes. But SO FAR we have improved the team. We brought in players not only better suited to the zone scheme they seem to want but also added pass rush capability in the secondary. And on the DL we added pass rush from the DT position and Hendrickson is both more durable than Lawson and finishes the play better.

[Frank Booth]

scary to see how many people made pff their football bible

[Fulcher_33]

(03-23-2021, 02:37 PM)Au165 Wrote: You will be shocked to learn every team in the league is currently using their data in various ways. It's not the end-all, but considering 90% of fans don't actually understand what they are looking at the outside of their macro understanding of football it helps contextualize things. 

That's my point. If you (in general) don't understand it that's fine, but to point to ONE piece of data and conclude your opinion on that, that's shallow.

NFL uses their metrics, but I can assure you (knowing actual people within organizations) it's a small piece of the metrics and analytics used by teams.

[Fulcher_33]

(03-23-2021, 02:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: scary to see how many people made pff their football bible

Exactly!!

[CJD]

On a scale from -5 to 5 (with -5 being a major downgrade, 5 being a major upgrade and 0 being a lateral move), this is how I would grade our free agents:

Riley Reiff vs Bobby Hart: +4
Chidobe Awuzie vs William Jackson III: -2
Mike Hilton vs Mackensie Alexander: +2
Larry Ogunjobi vs Geno Atkins: +2 (when compared to 2020 Atkins)
Trey Hendrickson vs Carl Lawson: -2

So, a total upgrade of +4 points over 5 replaced players. If we assume Atkins recovers in 2021, then maybe that one is a wash in that regard.

We lost Green and have not replaced him, but at 18m dollars, I would consider getting rid of him a net gain in 2020, as he cost exponentially more than he was producing.

We didn't get significantly better, but I am comfortable saying we got marginally better, with the massive upgrade being at RT.

Now, we still don't have a new guard signed, so if we don't re-sign Spain and then roll with Michael Jordan at LG, then that would be a -3 or -4, so we'd end up getting worse, but I think re-signing Spain is probably our worst case scenario at this point.

[Au165]

(03-23-2021, 02:44 PM)Fulcher_33 Wrote: That's my point. If you (in general) don't understand it that's fine, but to point to ONE piece of data and conclude your opinion on that, that's shallow.

NFL uses their metrics, but I can assure you (knowing actual people within organizations) it's a small piece of the metrics and analytics used by teams.

I also knowing people in organizations around the league through my connections with EA, can tell you MANY actually do use them in larger pieces than people think. I guess, as they say, it matters who you know? 

Either way, it gives people some sort of context to discussing play on the field they don't understand which is why they discuss it often. I'd prefer people point to that then talk about schemes and techniques they don't understand. You know how many times people say, "I don't need PFF I have my eyes" then proceed to say things that are 100% inaccurate to the actual football world?

[Fulcher_33]

(03-23-2021, 02:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: This forum is almost the only place I see PFF cited as anything other than a source of laughter.

That said, yes the team right now is better. Are more pieces needed? Yes. But SO FAR we have improved the team. We brought in players not only better suited to the zone scheme they seem to want but also added pass rush capability in the secondary. And on the DL we added pass rush from the DT position and Hendrickson is both more durable than Lawson and finishes the play better.

Yeah exactly. People want to use PFF as their be all end all on a player that's their choice, but it's pretty funny.

And Ocho, Im not downing anyone, but when someone has never even seen someone play and cites PFF said he sucks no thanks. It makes me laugh, that is BEYOND narrow minded, but hey if that's how they want to judge a player so be it. 

[Frank Booth]

(03-23-2021, 02:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: I also knowing people in organizations around the league through my connections with EA, can tell you MANY actually do use them in larger pieces than people think. I guess, as they say, it matters who you know? 

ah yes, video game ratings