Multiple teams call about Gio

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2021, 06:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   Do you not believe that Zach Ertz would be an upgrade over CJ Uzomah? 

No.

In 2020 Ertz had the worst season of any TE in the NFL over the last 5 years while Uzo was off to his best start ever.

[Fulcher_33]

(03-25-2021, 06:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Hard to say.

I think it's fair to say, regardless of identical situations, that Carson's new deal per worth just over 5 mil per and Mixon's extension being worth 12 mil per, that we spent entirely way too much money for a similar level of back.

Yeah but it's also hard to compare contracts this year with this cap being where it's at compared to when Mixon signed.

[masonbengals fan]

(03-25-2021, 06:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Gio Bernard isn't just a great blocker, he's also 9th on the Bengals all time receiving list.  That's right, 9.  Not just RBs, but all players.  Personally, I'd rather see the team do a restructure for an extra year or two, and allow him to finish his career as a Bengal.

However, if getting rid of a player of his quality and character somehow makes the team "better"?  Then I hope they at least get a 5th for him, and use the saved money wisely.

This x 100 

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2021, 06:38 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Same reason we got very little for Dunlap, to lose his salary is reason Eagle trade him for less than normal value

That is not how it works.  In a free market a player's value is set by 31 teams bidding for him.  Doesn't matter what his contract situation is with the Eagles.

You think that if the Rams were cap hell and decided to trade Aaron Donald they would only get a 5th for him? 

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-25-2021, 06:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: NFL TEs have had at least 25 receptions 182 times over the last 5 years.  Among those 182 Ertz's 2020 yards/target (4.65) ranks 182nd and his catch% (50.0) ranks 180th.

What about his other years?

It's hard for me to focus on only one particular year to set a players value when they have eight years of production to consider.

Fwiw, the fact the Eagles were missing their top 3 receivers for the bulk of the year probably has little bit to due with defenses limiting him to shorter routes.  I'm sure him playing hurt, having a terrible QB and a terrible OL didn't help either.

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2021, 06:36 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: That's a very specific stat to fit a very specific agenda.

There's a whole lot more to market value than how many back-to-back 1,100 yard seasons a player has or is coming off of.  For example, someone might dig a little deeper and see that one of those seasons at 4.1 YPC, which is absolutey terrible.  Someone might also look at touchdowns, production in the pass game, team performance, etc.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I'm of the position we paid Mixon too much money and we'd be better off having not have done that deal.  I said so as much at the time.  Clearly you're of the belief that he is indeed worth a 4 year 48 million dollar extension.  To each their own.

So you are actually trying to claim that if Carson had been a free agent last year when he was coming off of back-to-back 1100 yard seasons he would not have gotten any more than he did this year coming off an injured 681 yards season?

C'mon, man.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Gio is a better player at his position than virtually any other guy we could get fir the money saved by cutting him and a 6th round pick.

If we need $$ to sign someone, cut CJ or Price.

[MileHighGrowler]

(03-25-2021, 06:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Gio Bernard isn't just a great blocker, he's also 9th on the Bengals all time receiving list.  That's right, 9.  Not just RBs, but all players.  Personally, I'd rather see the team do a restructure for an extra year or two, and allow him to finish his career as a Bengal.

However, if getting rid of a player of his quality and character somehow makes the team "better"?  Then I hope they at least get a 5th for him, and use the saved money wisely.

I would agree with this.  Gio is overpaid for what he does as RB only.  But he is also a receiving threat and he does a hell of a job blocking.  From a pure numbers standpoint it makes sense to make a trade.  But from a personnel standpoint, I think it's a trickier discussion when you see him as a triple-specialty guy.   

[bengaloo]

If we trade him I'd rather trade him for a starting NFL OG or C than a late draft pick. Gio brings a lot to the table and carried the offense toward the end of season. He plays his ass off whether its blocking, running or catching passes. The only thing he ever lacked in Cinci was more carries and passes. His attitude is excellent and his machustache is the bomb. Trading him for a late round pick would suck, imo. I guess it would free up money to sign all the badass players left in FA tho? Pfft.... whateva

[*ochocincos*]

Would you be willing to part with Bernard if it meant the team bringing in Trai Turner or Larry Warford?
I would.

[kalibengal]

(03-25-2021, 07:06 PM)bengaloo Wrote: If we trade him I'd rather trade him for a starting NFL OG or C than a late draft pick. Gio brings a lot to the table and carried the offense toward the end of season. He plays his ass off whether its blocking, running or catching passes. The only thing he ever lacked in Cinci was more carries and passes. His attitude is excellent and his machustache is the bomb. Trading him for a late round pick would suck, imo. I guess it would free up money to sign all the badass players left in FA tho? Pfft.... whateva

I like the idea of trading Gio for good player...a WR or O Lineman.
I still cant get over the muffed TD pass Gio tipped at goal line against SD in playoffs (2015 season) that was intercepted....
but other than THAT play...Gio has been solid as you can be. 
if not a player...a  5th rounder seems reasonable.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-25-2021, 06:55 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I would agree with this.  Gio is overpaid for what he does as RB only.  But he is also a receiving threat and he does a hell of a job blocking.  From a pure numbers standpoint it makes sense to make a trade.  But from a personnel standpoint, I think it's a trickier discussion when you see him as a triple-specialty guy.   

The pass blocking difference between Bernard and the other RBs on the roster really isn't as big as people are making it out to be.
But let's look at Bernard's total yards per game average in 2020 - 48.19 (48th amongst RBs). He's only had a 4.0 or better rush YPG in four of his eight seasons.

So he's really not a "triple specialty" guy. He's a solid pass catcher, a good pass blocker, and not good rusher.
If you want a guy who can catch passes and pass block, why not just get a cheap FB/H-B?

[MileHighGrowler]

(03-25-2021, 07:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The pass blocking difference between Bernard and the other RBs on the roster really isn't as big as people are making it out to be.
But let's look at Bernard's total yards per game average in 2020 - 48.19 (48th amongst RBs). He's only had a 4.0 or better rush YPG in four of his eight seasons.

So he's really not a "triple specialty" guy. He's a solid pass catcher, a good pass blocker, and not good rusher.
If you want a guy who can catch passes and pass block, why not just get a cheap FB/H-B?

I'm not sure the way he's been utilized or those stats as RB show his skills.  But you're in agreement with me that the loss isn't about his rushing, it's about the pass-catching and blocking.  I think if he's on the field in a 2 back set, it opens a lot more options up than single back or swapping him out with a FB. 

I don't mind them trading him, but in my mind it's not as simple as saying we don't need another RB.  There are other considerations because of what he brings in facets of the game beyond him carrying the ball in the rushing attack.  

He's oddly polarizing (even before his big deal was inked) with some prizing him and others seeing him as nothing special.  I personally think the general fan underrates what he's brought to the team.  Is he replaceable?  Absolutely.  As long as there's an effective plan to replace everything he does, not just cutting a high salary and dropping an extra back. 

[BengalsBong]

(03-25-2021, 02:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Samaje Perine looked good in 3rd down pass protection in 2020. He also brought the hammer as a rusher which is a good change of pace for Mixon's shifty play style. 


And played special teams.

This ... Perine has 40 pounds on Gio and would stand up much better blocking and like Synric said he has a pounding run style that softens the D up for Mixon. Gio has been doing a good job for us for years whatever is asked never complains great team player. He has not been over used and still has a few good years left any team would be lucky to get him.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-25-2021, 06:52 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Gio is a better player at his position than virtually any other guy we could get fir the money saved by cutting him and a 6th round pick.

If we need $$ to sign someone, cut CJ or Price.

Cutting Price only saves about 2 mil.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-25-2021, 07:34 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I'm not sure the way he's been utilized or those stats as RB show his skills.  But you're in agreement with me that the loss isn't about his rushing, it's about the pass-catching and blocking.  I think if he's on the field in a 2 back set, it opens a lot more options up than single back or swapping him out with a FB. 

I don't mind them trading him, but in my mind it's not as simple as saying we don't need another RB.  There are other considerations because of what he brings in facets of the game beyond him carrying the ball in the rushing attack.  

He's oddly polarizing (even before his big deal was inked) with some prizing him and others seeing him as nothing special.  I personally think the general fan underrates what he's brought to the team.  Is he replaceable?  Absolutely.  As long as there's an effective plan to replace everything he does, not just cutting a high salary and dropping an extra back. 

I'm fine keeping Bernard, but he's not anywhere close to being a Top 20 RB, which he's getting paid like. Get his salary down to ~$2 mill, and I'd be way more on board with keeping him.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-25-2021, 07:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Would you be willing to part with Bernard if it meant the team bringing in Trai Turner or Larry Warford?
I would.

Everyone should be. Gio is obviously good against the blitz but our IOL is so bad we need to worry about just stopping teams only rushing 4 first and foremost.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-25-2021, 06:52 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Gio is a better player at his position than virtually any other guy we could get fir the money saved by cutting him and a 6th round pick.

If we need $$ to sign someone, cut CJ or Price.

I think Samaje Perine can have about the same production as Bernard, if not more.
Perine put up 367 yards on 74 touches in 2020.
Bernard put up 771 yards on 171 touches in 2020.
If you project Perine's yardage on 171 touches, it comes out to 848 yards.
In terms of pass blocking, Perine may not have quite the technique Bernard has, but him being 240 lbs definitely helps.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-25-2021, 06:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are actually trying to claim that if Carson had been a free agent last year when he was coming off of back-to-back 1100 yard seasons he would not have gotten any more than he did this year coming off an injured 681 yards season?

C'mon, man.

When you read this reply, please take the time to scoll back up and read the post you replied to.  In fact, please read all of my post leading up to this.

Nowhere did I say or even imply that Carson wouldn't have gotten any more money had he signed last year (It doesn't matter because Seattle chose not to ink early)  Nor did I say that Mixon could have been signed for an equal amount last year to Carson this year.

My position is very simple, and hasn't changed since we signed him; we paid too much money for a running back with those numbers.  Period.

You don't commit that amount of money to guy with those stats.  He's never proven to be a legitimate weapon in the pass game, his YPC is average at best, and nowhere in his stat line do come across anything that is elite (1400+ yards,, 12+ TD's, 60+ rec).

A 12 million dollar per year extension was too high for that level of back.  Some may argue it's too high for any level of back.  Had we approached the position like Seattle did with Carson, and let Mixon play out his rookie deal, then I think we'd be better off.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(03-25-2021, 08:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: When you read this reply, please take the time to scoll back up and read the post you replied to.  In fact, please read all of my post leading up to this.

Nowhere did I say or even imply that Carson wouldn't have gotten any more money had he signed last year.  Nor did I say that Mixon could have been signed for an equal amount.

My position is very simple, and hasn't changed since we signed him; we paid too much money for a running back with those numbers.  Period.

You don't commit that amount of money to guy with those stats.  He's never proven to be a legitimate weapon in the pass game, his YPC is average at best, and nowhere in his stat line do come across anything that is elite (1400+ yards,, 12+ TD's, 60+ rec).

A 12 million dollar per year extension was too high for that level of back.  Some may argue it's too high for any level of back.  Had we approached the position like Seattle did with Carson, and let Mixon play out his rookie deal, then I think we'd be better off.

It’s just not worth paying most RB Mixon money