I don't think you guys realize HOW GOOD JaMarr Chase is

[Murdock2420]

(04-02-2021, 10:15 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There is also some later-round developmental talent like Spencer Brown.  At nearly 6'9" tall, he isn't going to be a guard, but with some NFL coaching and reps, I think he could be a steal.  I would even use a 3rd round grade on him and could see going offense with the first three picks.  It makes sense given how much of FA was spent on the defense.  

I would be THRILLED with a first three rounds that look like this:

Ja'Marr Chase, WR
Quinn Meinerz, G/C
Spencer Brown, OT

I can't believe the team goes OL back to back in 2 and 3 if they skip on Sewell.

If they think the Oline is truly broken, they'll take Sewell in round 1.

If they take Chase, then they aren't as worried about the OL. I think you'd see Chase, Random OL guy, then Edge or DI, then maybe 4th or 5th they return to the line.

[Luvnit2]

(04-02-2021, 09:47 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: They love Pitts for one thing:  size.  If he wasn't so big (he's actually 6' 5 and 5/8", not a full 6'6") and still clocked the speed of 4.44, I don't think he would have near the buzz.  His production wasn't crazy (had 100 total receptions in 3 years, although almost of all of it came the last two).  

If people are so in love with his size, ask yourself why?  Bigger catch radius?  Ok, that makes sense, but with a 34" vertical, compared to Chase's 41", doesn't that balance out a bit?  And ball tracking skills?  It's Chase, not even close.  Change of direction?  I can name 10 WRs that will do that better.  He isn't even that great a blocker, and I don't care if you think you will line him up outside all the time, it is still something that he will be required to do in the NFL.  

I like the guy, but I just don't love him like so many that are on the "He's Calvin Johnson" hype train.  Johnson had an incredible 42.5" vertical.  A full 8" higher than Pitts.  Please.  His 4.44 at the "pro day" isn't like Johnson's 4.35 at the more reliable Indy Combine. 

Pitts will be a solid pro.  I would love to have him, but not at #5.  Chase simply does what very few people can do:  Test off the charts, produce in the toughest conference in the league, and has mitts that simply don't drop the ball.  

Pitts has a huge wingspan, Chase does not. So also need to factor it in. The size and verticle makes then even until you add Pitts huge wingspan making his catch radius much bigger than Chase.

Both will be great and really can't go wrong

[Essex Johnson]

(03-31-2021, 12:27 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This guy is a GENERATIONAL talent at WR. He's AJ Green with more speed and better measurables (that just came in from his pro day). There are currently like 4 guys in the NFL that have his measurables and ability. His pre existing chemistry/relationship with Burrow is just a cherry on top of the Sunday.

He's not Tee Higgins - he's on a completely different level.

I get protecting Burrow, but the Bengals HAVE to draft this guy with the 5th pick. He's just too much of a game changing talent not too. We should all be SALIVATING at the though of an offense consisting of Burrow, Higgins, Boyd, Mixon, and...JaMarr Chase. It would easily be a top 5 unit in the NFL.

NFL teams are built around game changing talent and playmakers. Yes, Sewell would be a great addition and sure help with protecting Burrow, but you only have so many chances to draft a talent like Chase over the course of history. The Bengals did it with AJ Green...we need to do it with JaMarr Chase.

I will lean with Gil Brandt, who has been around the game for a long time and more knowledgeable than probably any analyst today.. Here is what he said about Sewell.  So im hoping we get this Generational players instead:

Sewell is the closest thing to Hall of Famer Jonathan Ogden I've seen in some time. More so than anything, he can play left tackle, and that means so much in today's NFL.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-02-2021, 02:09 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I like the AJ Green comparison, but "produces" isn't near the same production that Chase had with a lot of other weapons needing targets.  

Again, Pitts only played 8 games this year. 

That statline of 1,780 yards and 20 TD's for Chase in 2019 is over 14 games.

If you project Pitt's season out to 14 games it looks like this: 1,348 yards and 21 TD's.

One player played with Joe Burrow, who put up the greatest single season in the history of the NFL.  The other played with Kyle Trask, is a pretty good QB, but nowhere near the level of Joe Burrow.

And it's not as if Pitts was surrounded by scrubs either, who also didn't also need their targets.  Kadarius Toney is currently projected as a late 1st round pick.  He's slotted to go right around where Justin Jefferson went last season.  Trevon Grimes is going to be a middle to late round pick.  And their other receiver, Jacob Copeland, who is only a Sophmore is a former highly rated recruit who will get drafted next year.

I'm not writing any of this to say Pitts is better than Chase.  I'm just pointing it out because of what I was responding to, that Chase has produced in the toughest conference in football.  Well, so has Pitts.  They play in the exact same conference.  And Pitts too put up ridiculous numbers.

They're completely different players so I would imagine whatever way one leans has more to do with role they're looking to fill on this team.  Both are ridiculously talented.  I also think both are "safer" picks than Sewell.  Of course Sewell on the other hand fills a serious need and has enormous upside.  You can't go wrong with any of them.

[Murdock2420]

In the grand debate of Sewell vs Chase vs Pitts we are missing one key piece of information.

Which one of these guys will benefit most from a season off?

We have a really strong trend going with our 1st round pick not playing due to injury in their first season. Either missing the entire season or a majority of it. Have to keep the streak alive.

[Whatever]

(04-02-2021, 03:08 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: In the grand debate of Sewell vs Chase vs Pitts we are missing one key piece of information.

Which one of these guys will benefit most from a season off?

We have a really strong trend going with our 1st round pick not playing due to injury in their first season. Either missing the entire season or a majority of it. Have to keep the streak alive.        

But Gresham played 15 games his rookie year after not playing his last year in college.  So Sewell or Chase could hypothetically break the streak.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-01-2021, 06:56 PM)BobJones4980 Wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to keep up with the draft much this year but what is it that makes Pitts such an amazing prospect?

I keep seeing people say thing like generational talent, comparing him to Megatron and other things, and I've seen some highlights and he looks really good but you say you've never seen it at TE but when I watch him I see Darren Waller. Not a knock on him at all, having a threat like Waller would be amazing but I don't see this Megatron of TEs or a generational talent like some.

Again not trying to disagree with you just haven't been able to invest much time in the draft this year due to work and I am curious what separates him from a guy like Waller that makes him SO much more amazing than the elite TE prospects in the last decade?

Man, love your Draft thoughts Bob. Too bad you haven't been able to keep up with the Draft this year. Great year of 
prospects and the best of the lot in my opinion is Kyle Pitts just like last year was Joe Burrow. Think this man can be 
great just the same. This guy Pitts is even more impressive than Calvin Johnson coming out with his size, hands, route
running, speed and versatility to also play TE in a pinch.

(04-02-2021, 12:28 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Interesting view. Not something that I considered.

 

Consider it Chris.

Think the Falcons will take him anyways, but if they don't I think we should take him over Chase and we will score lots of TD's.

(04-02-2021, 09:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am not as much in the Pitts fan club, but LOVE picks 2-5.  I might take the versatile, tough, and lightning-quick Eskridge if he was there in the 5th instead.  That kid won me over at the Senior Bowl.  He would immediately give the Bengals a massive upgrade on punt and kick returns.  

If we could get Eskridge that late I would be very surprised. Feel the same way about him.

(04-02-2021, 11:09 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: His phyical attributes are insane.  It's more than just size.  It's size with those numbers (6'6, 246, 4.44, etc).

Calvin Johnson may very well be the biggest physical freak in the history of the game.  And despite playing on some bad teams, and some injuries, he's one of biggest and best talents to ever play his position.  The fact that Kyle Pitts is even in the same ballpark speaks to the type of athlete he is.

Fwiw, Pitts is an inch taller than Calvin Johnson, he's 10 pounds heavier, his wingspan is bigger, and his handsize is almost a full inch bigger.  Now, I'm mainly writing this just to show that while he's a little slower and his vert isn't quite as high, he's also a slightly different type of player. 

As far his production, I would argue it was pretty crazy.  You say most of it came only in the last two years.  Well, yeah.  He's a junior.  Few if any skill position players produce a ton as true Freshman in the SEC (look at Ja'marr Chase for an example).  You also have to remember that this past year only featured 8 games for him.

Pitts, playing against nothing but SEC talent, caught 43 balls for 770 yards and 12 TD's in only 8 games.  In a typical 13 game, non-Covid season, this projects to 1,251 yards and 20 TD's.  And that's projected against all SEC teams.  Throw in a couple of weaker non-conference games and those numbers probably go up either further.

Instead of just comparing him physically to someone like Calvin Johnson, let's compare him to someone like AJ Green.  Just to put into persepctive some of these pro day numbers from a man this size:

Height
Green - 6' 3.5
Pitts - 6' 5.5

Weight
Green - 208
Pitts - 246

40
Green - 4.48
Pitts - 4.44

Vert
Green - 34.5
Pitts - 33.5

Broad Jump
Green - 126 inches
Pitts - 129 inches

Hand Size
Green - 9.25 in
Pitts - 10.575 in

So when you think of Kyle Pitts athleticism, basically just think of AJ Green, that's two inches taller, 40 pounds heavier, with bigger hands and a bigger wingspan.  That's the type of number Kyle Pitts just put up.

To each their own, if you prefer Chase or Sewell then that's fine.  But when you say Chase tests off the charts and produces in the tougher conference in football, the same can be said for this guy too.  

Great post Wes, just fantastic post.

Pitts could be the next greatest offensive weapon.

(04-02-2021, 02:04 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: To add to your comments,  I'd like to see how KP compares against Kittle  and Kelce. If he blows them away, athleticism wise, then that is a much more truer judgement of his value than comparing him to Calvin. But from the numbers you've shown,  it's already looking like Pitts is unguardable by safeties and linebackers, but I would add even #2 CBs of almost every team (except if a team has two high end CBs who are at high end #1 level). So,  he will open things up for the rest of the offense by forcing the defense to roll special coverage.  And if they don't,  then he will dominate. 

At this point, while I'm still leaning towards taking Sewell, the board has me convinced Chase,  Pitts,  or Sewell would all be great picks.  Of course most of us are not scouts. All things being equal I would choose to pick OL, but I don't think we know that all things are equal.  At this point,  if you told me that only one of those three guys would be a perennial All Pro/ HOF caliber player,  I want that one player regardless of position. 
Based on stuff being written on this board,  I am questioning which one would be that player.  I was of the opinion it would be Sewell, but now I think it might actually be Pitts, given some questions people have raised about Sewell. I am fairly certain that while Chase could turn out to be a good to great player,   he's not going to be a HOF type.  Just an opinion. I think it's almost just as likely that the best WR in this draft ends up being a guy going in round 2 or later. 

I almost want to pick Pitts and go OL in the 2nd round now.  And the coaches would simply have to change the offense to suit KP's skills. If he is that good,  then coaching had to change the offense to take advantage of all the mismatches he would bring. Simple as that. No excuses about our offense doesn't use TEs as a focus. 

Another epic post Master P.

The thing about Pitts is that everybody should be wanting this player after the Reiff and Spain signings.

The Draft is deep at OT.

(04-02-2021, 02:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Pitts at 5 over Sewell makes more sense then Chase at 5 over Sewell. Pitts is certainly a unique talent. Chase is good, but not exactly unique in NFL terms.

True IMHO.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-02-2021, 02:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I can't believe the team goes OL back to back in 2 and 3 if they skip on Sewell.

If they think the Oline is truly broken, they'll take Sewell in round 1.

If they take Chase, then they aren't as worried about the OL. I think you'd see Chase, Random OL guy, then Edge or DI, then maybe 4th or 5th they return to the line.

Why?  Sewell doesn't fix two spots and Reiff is a stop-gap.  I can all but guarantee there will be at least two offensive linemen drafted.  Possibly three.  

It isn't a matter of "worry".  Of course they know they need to make improvements on the offensive line.  The drafting of Chase over Sewell just has him as a better overall talent and there is a large contingency of top tier talent on the offensive line that will allow them to address both.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-02-2021, 02:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Pitts has a huge wingspan, Chase does not. So also need to factor it in. The size and verticle makes then even until you add Pitts huge wingspan making his catch radius much bigger than Chase.

Both will be great and really can't go wrong

I commented about his bigger catch radius, but I hear what you are saying.   For me, the drafting of Pitts would signal a change in how they plan to run their offense.  They would shift to more 12 personnel.  I think the "just line him up as a WR" idea makes no sense because as a WR, there are 3-4 better choices at least.  If you want him to play TE, you have to run more 12 personnel.  I am not opposed to that idea, as I feel like it would benefit the rushing attack, but I don't see the Bengals....a team that ran more 11 personnel than any other team in the NFL....changing their stripes for him. 

It would be like drafting a hulking middle linebacker that is a great run stuffer but not so good in pass coverage when the team largely plays nickel defense.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-02-2021, 02:56 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Again, Pitts only played 8 games this year. 

That statline of 1,780 yards and 20 TD's for Chase in 2019 is over 14 games.

If you project Pitt's season out to 14 games it looks like this: 1,348 yards and 21 TD's.

One player played with Joe Burrow, who put up the greatest single season in the history of the NFL.  The other played with Kyle Trask, is a pretty good QB, but nowhere near the level of Joe Burrow.

And it's not as if Pitts was surrounded by scrubs either, who also didn't also need their targets.  Kadarius Toney is currently projected as a late 1st round pick.  He's slotted to go right around where Justin Jefferson went last season.  Trevon Grimes is going to be a middle to late round pick.  And their other receiver, Jacob Copeland, who is only a Sophmore is a former highly rated recruit who will get drafted next year.

I'm not writing any of this to say Pitts is better than Chase.  I'm just pointing it out because of what I was responding to, that Chase has produced in the toughest conference in football.  Well, so has Pitts.  They play in the exact same conference.  And Pitts too put up ridiculous numbers.

They're completely different players so I would imagine whatever way one leans has more to do with role they're looking to fill on this team.  Both are ridiculously talented.  I also think both are "safer" picks than Sewell.  Of course Sewell on the other hand fills a serious need and has enormous upside.  You can't go wrong with any of them.

I understand what you are trying to do with projecting his stats, but that is part of my point:  Why wasn't he in all 12 games?  Injured?  He has caught 100 ball in college.  That's it.  Whether you project it over more games or not, that is his total production.  And that production is not ridiculous.  I don't mean to sound like I don't like him as a prospect, but I just don't see them as close as everyone else does.  

As far as talent around him, it just isn't close to what Chase had at LSU.  

And I think the Bengals would take Sewell or even trade back before taking Pitts at #5.  

It will be interesting, and I am thinking of wagering against Pitts that he won't be drafted nearly as early as everyone seems to be predicting.  

[impactplaya]

(04-03-2021, 09:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I commented about his bigger catch radius, but I hear what you are saying.   For me, the drafting of Pitts would signal a change in how they plan to run their offense.  They would shift to more 12 personnel.  I think the "just line him up as a WR" idea makes no sense because as a WR, there are 3-4 better choices at least.  If you want him to play TE, you have to run more 12 personnel.  I am not opposed to that idea, as I feel like it would benefit the rushing attack, but I don't see the Bengals....a team that ran more 11 personnel than any other team in the NFL....changing their stripes for him. 

It would be like drafting a hulking middle linebacker that is a great run stuffer but not so good in pass coverage when the team largely plays nickel defense.  

12 personal is a more effective package than 11
It really puts the defense in a bind cause there 8 man front
Can account for every gap and the offense can still
Move the ball at will
The Patriots won SBs with 12 personal
The Cleveland Browns that is there bread and butter
Under Stefanski who is 10 times the offensive mind
ZT is.
The Bengals would be a better offense under
12 personal given the fact that JB is most effective
In the middle of the field.
He doesnt have  a  home run arm

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-03-2021, 11:06 AM)impactplaya Wrote: 12 personal is a more effective package than 11
It really puts the defense in a bind cause there 8 man front
Can account for every gap and the offense can still
Move the ball at will
The Patriots won SBs with 12 personal
The Cleveland Browns that is there bread and butter
Under Stefanski who is 10 times the offensive mind
ZT is.
The Bengals would be a better offense under
12 personal given the fact that JB is most effective
In the middle of the field.
He doesnt have  a  home run arm

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, that is not how the offense has been constructed.  That is my point:  They are sticking with 11 personnel and Pitts is not a fit for that.  

[impactplaya]

(04-03-2021, 11:35 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, that is not how the offense has been constructed.  That is my point:  They are sticking with 11 personnel and Pitts is not a fit for that.  

Thats the downfall of ZT. He cant.or refuses to change the offensive identity philosophy even though it hasnt worked in 2 years

[impactplaya]

(04-03-2021, 11:35 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, that is not how the offense has been constructed.  That is my point:  They are sticking with 11 personnel and Pitts is not a fit for that.  

Why not draft Pitts .? It allows the offense to then either 
Go 11 or 12 personal . More flexible more diverse 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-03-2021, 09:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I understand what you are trying to do with projecting his stats, but that is part of my point:  Why wasn't he in all 12 games?  Injured?  He has caught 100 ball in college.  That's it.  Whether you project it over more games or not, that is his total production.  And that production is not ridiculous.  I don't mean to sound like I don't like him as a prospect, but I just don't see them as close as everyone else does.  

As far as talent around him, it just isn't close to what Chase had at LSU.  

And I think the Bengals would take Sewell or even trade back before taking Pitts at #5.  

It will be interesting, and I am thinking of wagering against Pitts that he won't be drafted nearly as early as everyone seems to be predicting.  

Brother, you need to watch more of Pitts, I don't think you are talking about the same player we are lol

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-03-2021, 01:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Brother, you need to watch more of Pitts, I don't think you are talking about the same player we are lol

It isn't just the player, and I really like him, but it simply isn't a fit for a team that lives in 11 personnel.  If they have some master plan to run 12 personnel 65% of the time and work on the rushing attack, and come away from the draft with two really good TEs, ok.  I just don't see that happening.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-04-2021, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It isn't just the player, and I really like him, but it simply isn't a fit for a team that lives in 11 personnel.  If they have some master plan to run 12 personnel 65% of the time and work on the rushing attack, and come away from the draft with two really good TEs, ok.  I just don't see that happening.  

The second game of the year last year when our two top TEs were healthy I felt like he figured out how to use TEs. It only lasted part of a game though then Uzi got hurt. 

[*Synric*]

(04-03-2021, 11:51 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Thats the downfall of ZT. He cant.or refuses to change the offensive identity philosophy even though it hasnt worked in 2 years

This is the exact opposite of what is really happening the Offensive identity changes too much.

When Zac Taylor and Brian Callahan were hired they wanted to run a heavy outside zone playaction team. The outside zone didnt work so they went to a pin & pull outside some/power gap inside. In 2020 they went to a heavy inside zone shotgun team with a ton of 5 wide and what looked to be alot more RPOs early in the year with Burrow (which was pretty much a copy of the LSU offense).

In 2021 they are talking about going back to the wide zone again...

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

Chase, Sewell, and Pitts are all available when our clock starts.

Roger Goodell walks up to the podium

"With the 5th pick in the 2021 NFL draft, the Cincinnati Bengals select Rashawn Slater OT Northwestern."


How do you react?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-04-2021, 10:26 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Chase, Sewell, and Pitts are all available when our clock starts.

Roger Goodell walks up to the podium

"With the 5th pick in the 2021 NFL draft, the Cincinnati Bengals select Rashawn Slater OT Northwestern."


How do you react?