Sewell vs Chase Civil War

[jj22]

(04-01-2021, 09:11 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: And that may be the more relevant question to ask anyway. The Jets could very well take Sewell at 2 if they aren't sold on this QB class. The thing with Slater is that you have to look at why he's getting drafted. Does he have elite physical attributes or upside? No, he's being drafted for his polish. Guys like that can make good players in the league and last for a long time. I see him as a physically average-ish guard when compared to starting OL. Is that really worth a top 5 pick? Do you really want to pass on potential grand slams and elite physical specimens for an average-ish guard? If Sewell is gone, the pick is no longer a no-brainer. 

At this point the best thing that can happen is the JETS or Falcons taking Sewell.

Then we can all celebrate the sexy pick without the weight of passing on Sewell.

[bonesaw]

(04-01-2021, 12:22 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Willie said its the AFC North you have build up the trenches blah blah blah to compete.  But we already know such.
Of course he would say draft Sewell. 
But if Chad Johnson or Eddie Brown was on the panel they would say draft Chase.....it's all relative.
Intresting some said draft Sewell but they didnt break down 
Why him as oppoosed to Darrisaw or Radunz.

I heard Housh on Cowherd the other day and he said we should take oline and that would be the smart thing to do but he doesn't think we will

[Whatever]

(04-01-2021, 11:00 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: can we ban pff?

it's literally re-writing history.

Bodine was terrible. God awful. Horrendous.

But pff says he wasnt bad. So we were wrong the whole time, people.

We were wrong

Bodine was good

I never said he was good.  He was an average starter that they got in the 4th round.

I mean, you don't like PFF, you don't like stats, you say to watch the games, but can't point to any film to back up your points.  So basically, you're just another of those "it's facts because it's my opinion even though my opinion isn't well informed" people.  I can't recall a single person going back to the mothership that tries to argue so hard with so little substance behind it.  

[Frank Booth]

(04-01-2021, 11:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: I never said he was good.  He was an average starter that they got in the 4th round.

I mean, you don't like PFF, you don't like stats, you say to watch the games, but can't point to any film to back up your points.  So basically, you're just another of those "it's facts because it's my opinion even though my opinion isn't well informed" people.  I can't recall a single person going back to the mothership that tries to argue so hard with so little substance behind it.  

if stats are telling me that Bodine was average, then those stats are wrong.

simple as

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: If anything, the early round whiffs would scare them away from Sewell. The most important thing at #5 is to make sure they get a great player, not draft a certain position group.  If they have questions about Sewell and aren't confident in their OL evaluations, then they should take the player they are most confident in.  Even Willie didn't sound confident about Sewell and he's worked with him and is also a voice the Brown family trusts.

Some of those mid round guys aren't whiffs.  Bodine was a 4 year starter and graded out in the 60's every year he was here.  People bagged on him because he was the weakest link on the OL, but he was not a bad player, particularly for a 4th round pick.  Westerman was never a starter, but was a solid backup who played well when his number was called.

Why would inferior prospects who didn't pan out scare them from a top prospect? That doesn't make sense. Jonah has looked solid and he was the top prospect like Sewell. Actually Sewell is a better prospect than Jonah, who was the only prospect to really work out recently (and no I don't consider Bodine a hit).

People hated on Bodine because he was the 2nd weakest link on some terrible lines. He got blown up a lot. Regardless of what PFF says, him being out of the league at 27 years old speaks louder.

The last lineman we took near the top (Jonah) panned out, while the last WR we took in the top 10 was a massive flop. Looking at that and our recent history on mid round picks, they should be more afraid of waiting to take a lineman.

[Whatever]

(04-01-2021, 11:27 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: if stats are telling me that Bodine was average, then those stats are wrong.

simple as

There's actually another perfectly rational explanation.

You don't know what you're looking at.

Simple as.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 10:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: As I’ve said a million times I’ll be quite happy with Sewell. I’m just making the argument for why they might not go in that direction. I’m going to be good with either choice though (or Pitts). It’s you guys on the other side that are choosing to be miserable if you don’t get exactly what you want. I just wish the guys who are being super condescending and talking about shiny toys and how stupid everyone that disagrees with them are would be a little more open minded.

I think I've been super respectful through all these discussions. Saying some are distracted by shiny toys is pretty mild, tbh.

[Benton]

(04-01-2021, 09:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. Regardless of which side you're on, you have to admit we've struggled with o-line picks lately.

Billy Price
Cedcric Ogbuehi
Jake Fisher

All busts.

Then you have the mid-round whiffs like...

Michael Jordan
JJ Dielman
Christian Westerman
Russell Bodine
Tanner Hawkinson

All taken between rounds 3-5. The last solid lineman we got in that range was Clint Boling in 2011.

That's what worries me about the "just get a lineman later" line of thinking.

That's my issue.

People keep saying "take the 'generational' player" (that term is as overused as GOAT) and just pick up some lineman later, but we've been using later picks on linemen and whiffed. Hugely. We've tried journeymen. We've tried bums. We've tried guys who slip due to motor. We've tried guys who slip due to injury. They've (mostly) all sucked. I'd rather use a pick on a solid player and lock it down.

Burrow isn't hitting anyone if he's on his back, I don't care if he's the next Megatron. Give Burrow time and he'll make bums look like Jerry Rice. Why? Because he's that good of a QB. He doesn't need "generational" receivers to look good. 

Take Sewell. Go to the playoffs. Keep moving forward.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 11:51 PM)Benton Wrote: That's my issue.

People keep saying "take the 'generational' player" (that term is as overused as GOAT) and just pick up some lineman later, but we've been using later picks on linemen and whiffed. Hugely. We've tried journeymen. We've tried bums. We've tried guys who slip due to motor. We've tried guys who slip due to injury. They've (mostly) all sucked. I'd rather use a pick on a solid player and lock it down.

Burrow isn't hitting anyone if he's on his back, I don't care if he's the next Megatron. Give Burrow time and he'll make bums look like Jerry Rice. Why? Because he's that good of a QB. He doesn't need "generational" receivers to look good. 

Take Sewell. Go to the playoffs. Keep moving forward.

Sewell is about as "cant-miss" as it gets for a lineman. The best line prospect we've had the opportunity to take in many years. For a team that's been whiffing so much, that makes him an obvious choice to me.

And to your point about Burrow making WRs better, I think it's funny how we wanted an elite QB so badly because he wouldn't need to be "surrounded by weapons" like Dalton. Then people immediately proceed to demand more elite weapons for Burrow even when we have 2 good WRs and a good RB.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's opinion. Just providing my own. Probably too much.

[Benton]

(04-01-2021, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: If anything, the early round whiffs would scare them away from Sewell. The most important thing at #5 is to make sure they get a great player, not draft a certain position group.  If they have questions about Sewell and aren't confident in their OL evaluations, then they should take the player they are most confident in.  Even Willie didn't sound confident about Sewell and he's worked with him and is also a voice the Brown family trusts.

Some of those mid round guys aren't whiffs.  Bodine was a 4 year starter and graded out in the 60's every year he was here.  People bagged on him because he was the weakest link on the OL, but he was not a bad player, particularly for a 4th round pick.  Westerman was never a starter, but was a solid backup who played well when his number was called.

How so?

We try guys that fall due to injury, motor, talent. None of them work. Why wouldn't we take a guy high that is unlikely to fall for one of those reasons?

Go back to Ced. A lot of people lauded the pick. Some said he would've been top 5 if he hadn't gotten injured. But he was, he fell, and we took him... and he sucked. Fisher was supposed to be a gem when we got him in the second... I think he's a tight end now? We've had a plethora of third or later picks that didn't do anything.

[Frank Booth]

Hey fellas, Bodine was actually decent. An average starting center

pff told me so

Check your eyes

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-01-2021, 11:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The last lineman we took near the top (Jonah) panned out, while the last WR we took in the top 10 was a massive flop. Looking at that and our recent history on mid round picks, they should be more afraid of waiting to take a lineman.

Jonah looks decent, but let’s be honest (since we’re using history to make our future decisions) who was our last absolute home run 1st round pick? Easily AJ right? That’s what you want out of a top 5 pick. A home run. Not saying Sewell wouldn’t be (his ceiling is crazy high), but I think there’s more of a chance of him being just a decent player than there is with Chase, who I think is going to be an absolute star. Especially after seeing what Justin Jefferson just did his rookie season.

[Benton]

(04-01-2021, 11:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sewell is about as "cant-miss" as it gets for a lineman. The best line prospect we've had the opportunity to take in many years. For a team that's been whiffing so much, that makes him an obvious choice to me.

And to your point about Burrow making WRs better, I think it's funny how we wanted an elite QB so badly because he wouldn't need to be "surrounded by weapons" like Dalton. Then people immediately proceed to demand more elite weapons for Burrow even when we have 2 good WRs and a good RB.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's opinion. Just providing my own. Probably too much.

I think Sewell is one of those guys who gets seen as the top guy at his spot because nobody can really come up with a lot of knocks. It's not as impressive when he doesn't allow sacks or pressures as it is when a receiver gets some crazy catch, but that's also kind of the point. It's about what a guy does every play, not about his highlight film. Sewell is pretty consistent across all his film.

But, yeah, I agree on the weapons issue. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but Burrow can only hit so many weapons per game and we've already got a few he can target. A healthy tight end and RB group will only help that. If we end up with four solid targets on a play through a mix of WR, TE and RB, there aren't many teams that are realistically defending those guys without leaving somebody open. Burrow isn't Dalton; we don't need four AJ Greens out there to win a game.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(04-02-2021, 12:07 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Hey fellas, Bodine was actually decent. An average starting center

pff told me so

Check your eyes

Does it really?

[Benton]

(04-02-2021, 12:09 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Jonah looks decent, but let’s be honest (since we’re using history to make our future decisions) who was our last absolute home run 1st round pick? Easily AJ right? That’s what you want out of a top 5 pick. A home run. Not saying Sewell wouldn’t be (his ceiling is crazy high), but I think there’s more of a chance of him being just a decent player than there is with Chase, who I think is going to be an absolute star. Especially after seeing what Justin Jefferson just did his rookie season.

Joe Burrow.

Easily.



Edit to add: If you're trying to say a WR is more of a home run than a lineman, 2017's John Ross (ninth) was as mediocre as 2015's Cedric (21st). Both were just crappy drafting. And that's the issue. We haven't been drafting very well.

[Whatever]

(04-01-2021, 11:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Why would inferior prospects who didn't pan out scare them from a top prospect? That doesn't make sense. Jonah has looked solid and he was the top prospect like Sewell. Actually Sewell is a better prospect than Jonah, who was the only prospect to really work out recently (and no I don't consider Bodine a hit).

People hated on Bodine because he was the 2nd weakest link on some terrible lines. He got blown up a lot. Regardless of what PFF says, him being out of the league at 27 years old speaks louder.

The last lineman we took near the top (Jonah) panned out, while the last WR we took in the top 10 was a massive flop. Looking at that and our recent history on mid round picks, they should be more afraid of waiting to take a lineman.

Jonah has looked solid.  He has not looked like a franchise cornerstone.  Sewell is graded higher, but only slightly.  Lance Zierlien for example graded Jonah 6.70 and has Sewell 6.73.  Both were Top 5 guys on most big boards.

You realize the average career length for a 4th round pick is only 5 years, right?  Bodine was certainly not a home run, but he wasn't a whiff by any stretch.  

The last OL they took in the 2nd round was an All Pro and better than any 1st round OL we've taken this century.  Based on that, I'd say they should wait until the 2nd round to address the OL.  

[Frank Booth]

(04-02-2021, 12:10 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Does it really?

apparently. 

I know, right? 

We're so stupid for seeing Bodine get bullied and suck constantly

turns out,

that's actually decent play from a center

Crazy. I need to get my eyes checked

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-02-2021, 12:11 AM)Benton Wrote: Joe Burrow.

Easily.

Nah. I obviously love Joe but he has a lot to prove before he passes AJ.

[Frank Booth]

Zeitler was a first round pick. He was very very good.

Didnt make a pro bowl, so he's considered trash by some people here who only judge by pro bowls

but he was actually a very good guard.

But maybe not. pff may have Bodine graded higher than Zeitler

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(04-02-2021, 12:14 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Zeitler was a first round pick. He was very very good.

Didnt make a pro bowl, so he's considered trash by some people here who only judge by pro bowls

but he was actually a very good guard.

But maybe not. pff may have Bodine graded higher than Zeitler

Pro Bowls are worthless since everyone opts out half the league makes the Pro Bowl. So yeah pretty trash if you can't get in right?