(04-10-2021, 06:02 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: You mean before he was forced to throw an NFL ball? I would have no idea because I don't watch college football.
I can throw a college football about 60-65 yards, but I can only throw an NFL ball about 50 yards. There's a notable difference between the two when throwing.
Sorry, the difference between a college and nfl football isn't so great that it would cause a 10-15 yd difference in the throw.
That's not my opinion. I've thrown both as well.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(04-10-2021, 08:55 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Joe Burrow needs to work on his deep throws. No question. That was his biggest knock coming out of LSU: He drops them into buckets (gives a DB more time to adjust) instead of driving them on ropes. This is NOT an accuracy issue - as scouting reports noted. It's an arm strength and feet issue - that can be worked on and corrected some over time.
- The line also needs to work on consistently giving those plays time to develop and Joe space to step into throws.
- And the Bengals need a #1 WR who can give Burrow more than the 1.7 avg yards of separation AJ Green did in 2020. AJ's entire 2020 season was a pitiful display. The Bengals starting trio had the lowest avg yards of separation than any other group in 2020 and AJ was a huge reason for that. Although, Boyd & Higgins weren't stellar at 2.7 & 2.5 respectively.
^ That last one was the point of the other discussion I was referencing.
Regarding the football, if I recall correctly, Joe said in an interview that he finds the NFL ball easier to throw do to the shape and stickier texture to it vs a college football.
As far as the howitzer you're carrying around with you.... Can you throw it over them mountains?
I've heard several QBs say the same thing.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(04-10-2021, 05:02 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Sorry, the difference between a college and nfl football isn't so great that it would cause a 10-15 yd difference in the throw.
That's not my opinion. I've thrown both as well.
Yes
15 feet ? perhaps ? 15 yards ? That seems like a stretch.
I've only thrown a college football when we were measuring distance on one instance when I was 17 and I was consistently getting it to the opposing 32-30 from the goal line. The NFL ball was only making it to the opposing 45-42 yard line. I've lost a little bit over the years so I dropped it back about 5 yards. I last threw an NFL ball in 2019 and didn't try to see how far I can throw but still had some zip on the 30-40 yard passes.
I am a big fan and have high hopes for Higgins, but I think I can remember a handful of drops on some shot plays. I definitely saw decline in Green’s game, but Higgins could’ve had even better numbers as a rookie (as well as Joey B ) had he not had some of those concentration lapses. Again, having said that, I am very excited about his future with this team.
(04-10-2021, 09:59 PM)Joelist Wrote: Weirdly the nightmare game for Higgins in the drop world was the Washington game, where of course something else also happened...
(04-10-2021, 06:02 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: You mean before he was forced to throw an NFL ball? I would have no idea because I don't watch college football.
I can throw a college football about 60-65 yards, but I can only throw an NFL ball about 50 yards. There's a notable difference between the two when throwing.
You need to go watch game highlights of Burrow throwing deep balls to all his LSU WR's, including specifically Ja Marr Chase (who they should draft since Burrow threw over 2K yds and 20TDs to the guy). And, the record number of TDs he threw overall, many 20+ yds or more.
With the WRs he had with the Bengals last year, and for a variety of other reasons, there weren't a lot of deep ball opportunities. AJ clearly had lost a few steps, so he wasn't the deep threat of the past, the running game sucked, and it took some time as a Rookie for Higgins to settle in. Those were all factors for not having a deep ball game.
Burrow has no issues throwing deep balls, they just need better skill position players around him.
(04-12-2021, 10:27 AM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: You need to go watch game highlights of Burrow throwing deep balls to all his LSU WR's, including specifically Ja Marr Chase (who they should draft since Burrow threw over 2K yds and 20TDs to the guy). And, the record number of TDs he threw overall, many 20+ yds or more.
With the WRs he had with the Bengals last year, and for a variety of other reasons, there weren't a lot of deep ball opportunities. AJ clearly had lost a few steps, so he wasn't the deep threat of the past, the running game sucked, and it took some time as a Rookie for Higgins to settle in. Those were all factors for not having a deep ball game.
Burrow has no issues throwing deep balls, they just need better skill position players around him.
0:27 ... Burrow underthrows Chase who had a multiple step lead. He comes back and high points the ball. Big play instead of a TD.
1:17 ... Burrow does get hit, so might be why, but again Chase has a multiple step lead and has to come back to an underthrown ball.
1:52 ... Chase has steps again, Burrow doesn't throw to the corner in front of him but underthrows instead and Chase comes back and highpoints it.
Just in the first 2 minutes. Haven't watched it all, figured that'd be enough. Iffy deep balls look a whole lot better when you have the best (and the second best) WRs in the nation going to get them.
I will say that, as expected, Burrow is absolutely killing the intermediary passes in those first two minutes. Pretty much what we saw in 2020.
(04-10-2021, 01:32 AM)Joelist Wrote: I watched those plays and he forgets to mention some details:
a) On the missed TD to AJ that was 100% on AJ - the ball was within his usual catch radius but he didn't even look back to locate the ball. Had that same play been run to Tee the result would likely have been TD.
b) Another play he used as an example had MJ get beaten by his man which prevented Burrow from stepping into the throw. Stepping into the throw is key to good, accurate long passing.
I'm not saying there were no issues on deep balls, but he is way underestimating the effect of poor interior line play (especially by LG but also Redmond at RG) on deep passing because of the need for the QB to step into the throw to get both zip and touch.
Totally agree as usual. Burrow needs time to throw the deep balls and he needs Receivers that can get some separation.
AJ was clearly a shadow of his former self last year and our interior OL was terrible. Tee and Boyd can get some separation and
once Burrow started throwing to these guys and got a little time the deep balls started to come. Expect a monster jump this year
if the O-line especially the interior improves and we add a young speedster to the group. Expecting both.
0:27 ... Burrow underthrows Chase who had a multiple step lead. He comes back and high points the ball. Big play instead of a TD.
1:17 ... Burrow does get hit, so might be why, but again Chase has a multiple step lead and has to come back to an underthrown ball.
1:52 ... Chase has steps again, Burrow doesn't throw to the corner in front of him but underthrows instead and Chase comes back and highpoints it.
Just in the first 2 minutes. Haven't watched it all, figured that'd be enough. Iffy deep balls look a whole lot better when you have the best (and the second best) WRs in the nation going to get them.
I will say that, as expected, Burrow is absolutely killing the intermediary passes in those first two minutes. Pretty much what we saw in 2020.
But apparently we’re not allowed to say he needs elite weapons to reach his full (LSU type) potential. Then it just spirals into rehashing old arguments about Andy and his weapons. Which is frustrating to say the least.
Personally, I think Joe can be a very good QB with just average to slightly above average weapons. But I want to aim higher than that. His deep ball will likely improve (especially if we get a guy like Chase), but even if it’s never a strength that’s ok. I’ll take Joe Burrow over Jeff Blake any day.
(04-12-2021, 01:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But apparently we’re not allowed to say he needs elite weapons to reach his full (LSU type) potential. Then it just spirals into rehashing old arguments about Andy and his weapons. Which is frustrating to say the least.
Personally, I think Joe can be a very good QB with just average to slightly above average weapons. But I want to aim higher than that. His deep ball will likely improve (especially if we get a guy like Chase), but even if it’s never a strength that’s ok. I’ll take Joe Burrow over Jeff Blake any day.
Was listening to Mo on 1530 this afternoon as I drove home and he touched on this Andy Dalton argument.
His statement (and I completely believe what he said) Burrow isn't like Dalton. Burrow is a really good QB and will be able to help elevate the play of WRs around him. He went on to say he believe Burrow will be able to turn average WRs into stars as he continues to develop.
I will be interested to see what happens with Moss. He was productive at LSU, went undrafted sat out with an injury. Perhaps Burrow will bring the best out of Moss again?
Conversely (and I've made this statement myself) how good will Chase be if he isn't playing with Burrow? Say we pass on him and he goes to Miami where Tua doesn't look like a sure thing at this point. I really wonder what type of numbers Chase would have put up last year in LSU with how bad that offense looked.
I still think Chase will be a good WR, but did he elevate Burrow or did Burrow elevate him?
(04-12-2021, 06:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Was listening to Mo on 1530 this afternoon as I drove home and he touched on this Andy Dalton argument.
His statement (and I completely believe what he said) Burrow isn't like Dalton. Burrow is a really good QB and will be able to help elevate the play of WRs around him. He went on to say he believe Burrow will be able to turn average WRs into stars as he continues to develop.
I will be interested to see what happens with Moss. He was productive at LSU, went undrafted sat out with an injury. Perhaps Burrow will bring the best out of Moss again?
Conversely (and I've made this statement myself) how good will Chase be if he isn't playing with Burrow? Say we pass on him and he goes to Miami where Tua doesn't look like a sure thing at this point. I really wonder what type of numbers Chase would have put up last year in LSU with how bad that offense looked.
I still think Chase will be a good WR, but did he elevate Burrow or did Burrow elevate him?
I do think there's some validity in Mo' take. Joe Burrow floats boats. He raises the tide. That is a good thing!
I think Jamaar Chase definitely put in work for LSU and helped Burrow plenty. And, vice versa.
If the Bengals take O line in the first, I hope they trade back to do so and pick up an extra 2nd or something. I know they need to get better on the line. There are no questions there.
Maybe Moss, who is primarily a blocking TE, will help on the edges some? That signing feels like a bit if a flyer.
(04-12-2021, 06:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Conversely (and I've made this statement myself) how good will Chase be if he isn't playing with Burrow? Say we pass on him and he goes to Miami where Tua doesn't look like a sure thing at this point. I really wonder what type of numbers Chase would have put up last year in LSU with how bad that offense looked.
I still think Chase will be a good WR, but did he elevate Burrow or did Burrow elevate him?
Nah, that trio of WR’s was just really damn good. Marshall was putting up pretty impressive numbers at LSU last year without Burrow (731 yards & 10 TD in 7 games). And he’s pretty firmly the 3rd best out of those guys.
(04-12-2021, 07:34 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Nah, that trio of WR’s was just really damn good. Marshall was putting up pretty impressive numbers at LSU last year without Burrow (731 yards & 10 TD in 7 games). And he’s pretty firmly the 3rd best out of those guys.
Yeah, not to mention that Justin Jefferson just put up 1,400 yards/7 TDs (15.9 AVG/70.4 catch%) as a rookie with Kirk Cousins and he was pretty firmly the 2nd best out of those guys. Lol
I think Burrow has a ton of potential, and will be a great QB, so I am not attacking him or anything. I just am willing to accept that his deep ball skills are iffy at best (hell, Brees made a HoF career out of short/intermediate passes, no shame there) and I don't know how much I am buying that Burrow will "turn average WRs into stars". That latter part just seems like nonsense hype with zero concrete proof in reality to base it upon.
(04-12-2021, 10:02 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, not to mention that Justin Jefferson just put up 1,400 yards/7 TDs (15.9 AVG/70.4 catch%) as a rookie with Kirk Cousins and he was pretty firmly the 2nd best out of those guys. Lol
I think Burrow has a ton of potential, and will be a great QB, so I am not attacking him or anything. I just am willing to accept that his deep ball skills are iffy at best (hell, Brees made a HoF career out of short/intermediate passes, no shame there) and I don't know how much I am buying that Burrow will "turn average WRs into stars". That latter part just seems like nonsense hype with zero concrete proof in reality to base it upon.
Absolutely with you, Leap. And you know where I stand on Burrow.
(04-10-2021, 10:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote: That's a fair question, although Next Gen stats only tracks separation on COMPLETED passes. The deep ball misses, some - admittedly - were bad throws by Burrow (SD game, anyone?), weren't counted in those numbers.
Burrow needs to improve deep ball arm strength and drive to help his receivers out.
Also, scheme and route trees aren't taken into consideration with those numbers. Could Taylor's offense NOT be lending itself to clean routes? Too much congestion in the cuteness? Fair questions, too, but doubtful, to me, since they incorporated a some LSU stuff last year and that didn't look wildly better as far as "scheming guys open" goes. Certainly not on deep throws.
Either Paul Dehner Jr, Dave Lapham, or one of the Locked On Bengals guys had stated in a podcast last season that AJ Green's GPS data showed him running his routes at several MPH below his previous avgs and below dbs who had had major injuries, like Richard Sherman. This made AJ easily coverable, even by avg NFL CBs. He looked horrific and a shell of himself.
Couple the above with Lapham & Hoard discussing AJ Green's interview after signing with the Cardinals where they pointed out that AJ basically hated Taylor3offense, never bought in, never liked his role or the routes/job he was asked to do, and basically needed a change of scenery. They didn't accuse him of "mailing it in", but I would say they went pretty close to saying he gave selective effort when he could.
It was time for the AJ Green era to end in Cincinnati.
Agreed it was time to end....and if Lap and Hoard are correct....he should've been gone after 2019.
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