Daniel Jeremiah - Building an OL from a DL coach perspective

[*ochocincos*]

(04-15-2021, 07:53 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It doesn't change my approach, but it might open the eyes of the guys screaming how we need a tackle to protect Burrow.  No one wants to hear this but our pass protection, from the tackles, was at least average last year.  Probably middle of the pack.  The guard play, from a pass protection standpoint, was awful.  It improved when XSF and Spain were out there to CLOSE to average, but early in the season it was downright awful.

The Bengals need a beast at RG, and a strong, young talent to develop at RT.  Sure, I could use a center to push Hopkins as well, should a player like Humphrey fall all the way to our 3rd round pick, but I am not picking Sewell at #5.

The offensive line came pretty far last year.  Now you add Reiff, and most certainly a draft pick for RG, and the offensive line should be solid.  Give Burrow an elite weapon like Chase, and watch him serve up 30-burgers on a weekly basis.  

Yep.
If the Bengals were to roll out with Williams and Reiff at OT, Hopkins at C, and Spain and XSF at G, defenses will attack the Gs.
If Price is in at C, they are going to attack the entire IOL.

[Burma]

(04-14-2021, 04:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: Another thread where people already firmly entrenched in their position can reaffirm their position. I can't wait to get to the 29th.

It's like when you're out with your buddies and having a good time and a lot of drinks and that one guy says "watch this" and no matter how reasonably you try to talk him out of it, you know he is going to make a bad choice with serious consequences.

[Whatever]

(04-15-2021, 10:00 AM)Burma Wrote: It's like when you're out with your buddies and having a good time and a lot of drinks and that one guy says "watch this" and no matter how reasonably you try to talk him out of it, you know he is going to make a bad choice with serious consequences.

Honestly, it resembles political discussion more than anything.

[Burma]

(04-15-2021, 10:21 AM)Whatever Wrote: Honestly, it resembles political discussion more than anything.

It really does, and the one thing I have learned about that, is you can never change a mind that doesn't want to be changed. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-14-2021, 04:47 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: You know it really is a shame that we can't just pick Chase at 5 without repercussions.  However, we wouldn't even have the #5 pick if the OL wasn't such a huge mess.  Besides Reiff, all the same guys will be trotting back out there next season barring more FA/draft moves.

I think the Bengals have tried to take the shortcut with the OL for a few years now and it just hasn't worked.  With Browns just picking up Clowney today, the rest of the AFCN will be feasting on these same guys again.  Our problem at WR is by far smaller than our problem at G & C.
Hopkins may not even be ready and Price, well, enough said.

Could we just TRY to protect Burrow and run block for one year and see what happens?  Who knows?  Maybe it might rub off on the rest of the team?

The starting offensive line for the first half of the season also consisted of Mike Jordan (awful) at LG, and a revolving door at RG consisting of Fred Johnson (awful, but to be fair, not his natural position), and Alex Redmond (solid run blocker, poor pass blocker) before it was stabilized with Spain and the return of XSF toward the end of the season.  

To make Reiff sound like he is the only change from what the Bengals rolled out for the first half of last year just isn't accurate.

Ironically, the line's best performance of the season was against the Titans (they don't have much pass rush, though) which started Adeniji and Johnson as the tackles, Price as the center, and Spain as one of the guards.

The Bengals will absolutely have an offensive linemen drafted (or two) and, most likely, it will be someone in the 2nd round that they feel could either start at RT and kick Reiff inside or start at RG and be developed for RT.  There is also the possibility that they really like a guard (like Ben Cleveland?) and take him in Rd 2 or 3 and stick him at RG for the next decade.  

Last year was the perfect storm for the offensive line:  It was really Jonah's rookie season.  COVID.  Turd coach.  Mike Jordan still sucked.  XSF injured.  I mean...it was a train wreck.  We actually celebrated Bobby Hart after the Eagles's game.  

This year, it will look much different with Pollack, a year 2 Jonah, XSF and Spain battling it out for LG, Reiff at RT, and a draft pick likely starting at RG.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they came from the draft with three offensive linemen drafted.  It will be better, and Chase will change the way teams defend the Bengals.  Most importantly, he will provide an answer when the ratbirds and steelers were able to lock down Boyd and Higgins.  

[*ochocincos*]

(04-15-2021, 10:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The starting offensive line for the first half of the season also consisted of Mike Jordan (awful) at LG, and a revolving door at RG consisting of Fred Johnson (awful, but to be fair, not his natural position), and Alex Redmond (solid run blocker, poor pass blocker) before it was stabilized with Spain and the return of XSF toward the end of the season.  

To make Reiff sound like he is the only change from what the Bengals rolled out for the first half of last year just isn't accurate.

Ironically, the line's best performance of the season was against the Titans (they don't have much pass rush, though) which started Adeniji and Johnson as the tackles, Price as the center, and Spain as one of the guards.

The Bengals will absolutely have an offensive linemen drafted (or two) and, most likely, it will be someone in the 2nd round that they feel could either start at RT and kick Reiff inside or start at RG and be developed for RT.  There is also the possibility that they really like a guard (like Ben Cleveland?) and take him in Rd 2 or 3 and stick him at RG for the next decade.  

Last year was the perfect storm for the offensive line:  It was really Jonah's rookie season.  COVID.  Turd coach.  Mike Jordan still sucked.  XSF injured.  I mean...it was a train wreck.  We actually celebrated Bobby Hart after the Eagles's game.  

This year, it will look much different with Pollack, a year 2 Jonah, XSF and Spain battling it out for LG, Reiff at RT, and a draft pick likely starting at RG.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they came from the draft with three offensive linemen drafted.  It will be better, and Chase will change the way teams defend the Bengals.  Most importantly, he will provide an answer when the ratbirds and steelers were able to lock down Boyd and Higgins.  

Indeed.
And Spain was coming from a different offense and only started one game with the Bengals before the WFT game where Burrow got knocked out for the season.

I do think this OL already looks better on paper than when Jordan, Redmond/Johnson, and Hart were starting.
I'm still nervous if both Spain and XSF start this year, as that could mean we're one injury away from Jordan starting again.
Hopefully they can get an OL on Day 2 who can either start at OG or at least be good enough to be the first guy off the bench.

[impactplaya]

(04-15-2021, 10:47 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Indeed.
And Spain was coming from a different offense and only started one game with the Bengals before the WFT game where Burrow got knocked out for the season.

I do think this OL already looks better on paper than when Jordan, Redmond/Johnson, and Hart were starting.
I'm still nervous if both Spain and XSF start this year, as that could mean we're one injury away from Jordan starting again.
Hopefully they can get an OL on Day 2 who can either start at OG or at least be good enough to be the first guy off the bench.

I think the Bengals draft 2 OGs or draft 1 and sign a undrafted
FA. I dont see Jordan making this team. Pollack can teach 
Everything but tenacity and aggression

[Joelist]

Yes, the OL horror story was when we had MJ and Redmond at Guard together with Hart at RT. When we (rather later in the season) had Spain and XSF at Guard the interior horror story improved dramatically. This is why I also think we need to double dip in the draft on OL and Guards are priority - one of Spain/XSF is hurt and we have trash like Redmond or MJ back out there.

[2MinutesHate]

(04-15-2021, 10:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Last year was the perfect storm for the offensive line:  It was really Jonah's rookie season.  COVID.  Turd coach.  Mike Jordan still sucked.  XSF injured.  I mean...it was a train wreck.  We actually celebrated Bobby Hart after the Eagles's game.  

This year, it will look much different with Pollack, a year 2 Jonah, XSF and Spain battling it out for LG, Reiff at RT, and a draft pick likely starting at RG.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they came from the draft with three offensive linemen drafted.  It will be better, and Chase will change the way teams defend the Bengals.  Most importantly, he will provide an answer when the ratbirds and steelers were able to lock down Boyd and Higgins.  

Spain and XSF really should really just be backups.  At center, Hopkins and Price are barely serviceable.  MJ being one injury away from starting is so scary.

So, hoping a day 2 draft pick can start right away, XSF and/or Spain can now somehow become a good starter(s) halfway through their careers and Hopkins recovers fully so we don't have to play Price is a lot to ask for don't you think?  

I see Burrow having a very difficult time with guys just pouring through the middle all over again.  I don't want to watch Brandon Allen anymore at QB because of the "perfect storm" that's been hanging around for years now.  OL has been our biggest problem and it has to be fixed or we go nowhere.  

But ya, Chase is awesome.  It's too bad our OL sucks so bad.  Defense isn't much better either.  Actually WR, I think is our strongest group besides QB (when Burrow gets his knee back again that is.)

[lone bengal]

I mean technically you could say this about multiple position groups. If you have a bad CB the offensive will attack him , if a linebacker can’t cover the offensive will attack him and if guys can’t play the run the offensive will run at them and so on. Plus it’s big picture too the Bengals have one good young lineman in the pipeline in Williams, it’s about finding multiple guys who can protect Burrow long term and short term. I also think Jordan playing horrific has made people believe XSF and Spain are way better then they are because there’s only one way up from rock bottom. XFS isn’t good , he’s the most overrated player on the roster and Spain is slightly below average on a good day.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-15-2021, 11:37 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I mean technically you could say this about multiple position groups. If you have a bad CB the offensive will attack him , if a linebacker can’t cover the offensive will attack him and if guys can’t play the run the offensive will run at them and so on. Plus it’s big picture too the Bengals have one good young lineman in the pipeline in Williams, it’s about finding multiple guys who can protect Burrow long term and short term. I also think Jordan playing horrific has made people believe XSF and Spain are way better then they are because there’s only one way up from rock bottom. XFS isn’t good , he’s the most overrated player on the roster and Spain is slightly below average on a good day.

Agreed on the you could say this about most positions statement.

I could also easily say that without a top flight WR the defense will stack the box and dedicate less resources to pass coverage, meaning more effective pass rush...

[*ochocincos*]

(04-15-2021, 11:22 AM)impactplaya Wrote: I think the Bengals draft 2 OGs or draft 1 and sign a undrafted
FA. I dont see Jordan making this team. Pollack can teach 
Everything but tenacity and aggression

I'm expecting 1 guard and then probably 1 OT who could also maybe play guard before taking over at RT. Maybe another OL late if the value is there.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-15-2021, 11:37 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I mean technically you could say this about multiple position groups. If you have a bad CB the offensive will attack him , if a  linebacker can’t cover the offensive will attack him and  if guys can’t play the run the offensive will run at them and so on. Plus it’s big picture too the Bengals have one good young lineman in the pipeline in Williams, it’s about finding multiple guys who can protect Burrow long term and short term. I also think Jordan playing horrific has made people believe XSF and Spain are way better then they are because there’s only one way up from rock bottom. XFS isn’t good , he’s the most overrated player on the roster and Spain is slightly below average on a good day.

Correct.

So basically, the philosophy is upgrade your worst positions first, otherwise the opposition will exploit that.

That's a different philosophy than upgrading a solid to a superstar while still leaving another position as below-average.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-15-2021, 10:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The starting offensive line for the first half of the season also consisted of Mike Jordan (awful) at LG, and a revolving door at RG consisting of Fred Johnson (awful, but to be fair, not his natural position), and Alex Redmond (solid run blocker, poor pass blocker) before it was stabilized with Spain and the return of XSF toward the end of the season.  

Not addressing my comment to you, just commenting on something that most people skim over in the "Sewell or Slater to Guard for one season" discussion. Johnson did indeed suck in his move to RG last season and many people use the "You can't expect Sewell or Slater to make a successful move to Guard" argument.

Bullshit.

Sewell and Slater are going to be top 5-15 picks and Johnson was a UFA already cut by another team. The talent level isn't even close by comparison. I'd move either to LG for a season before kicking them out to LT and move Williams to RT. I am not impressed with Williams at all. He got beat more often than the stats show because Burrow had already gotten rid of the ball many of the times or had already moved out of the pocket. I'm not calling Williams a bust at this point but he's far from a hit. He's about as good at LT as Big Willie was and they moved him to RT to flourish against the opponent's #2 pass rusher instead of getting blown up every week by the #1 pass rusher while moving backup RG Rod Jones to starting LT. I think that move would be best for Williams as a Bengal.

[Whatever]

(04-15-2021, 12:25 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Not addressing my comment to you, just commenting on something that most people skim over in the "Sewell or Slater to Guard for one season" discussion. Johnson did indeed suck in his move to RG last season and many people use the "You can't expect Sewell or Slater to make a successful move to Guard" argument.

Bullshit.

Sewell and Slater are going to be top 5-15 picks and Johnson was a UFA already cut by another team. The talent level isn't even close by comparison. I'd move either to LG for a season before kicking them out to LT and move Williams to RT. I am not impressed with Williams at all. He got beat more often than the stats show because Burrow had already gotten rid of the ball many of the times or had already moved out of the pocket. I'm not calling Williams a bust at this point but he's far from a hit. He's about as good at LT as Big Willie was and they moved him to RT to flourish against the opponent's #2 pass rusher instead of getting blown up every week by the #1 pass rusher while moving backup RG Rod Jones to starting LT. I think that move would be best for Williams as a Bengal.

Willie was a RT coming out of college.  The Bengals got blasted for drafting him, too, because the prevailing wisdom at that time was you don't spend Top 10 picks on a RT.  As far as facing #2 pass rushers goes...

"In his 13 seasons in the NFL, Anderson faced nine of the top 11 all-time sack leaders; against those nine defenders, he only allowed one sack, which occurred during his rookie season in a match-up against Bruce Smith.[1] Anderson only surrendered 16 sacks in his 13 year career and did not give up a sack between 1999 and 2001.[citation needed] The 11 quarterback pressures he allowed in 2006 were the fourth fewest pressures allowed by an offensive tackle in a season between 2006 and 2019.[2]"

The fact that he didn't look good when forced to play LT only goes to show you that no matter how highly ranked a guy is, they can't necessarily switch spots just because they're talented.  That's not to say Sewell and/or Slater can't pull off the switch, but nobody on these boards has worked with either enough to make an informed determination on whether they can.  

[bengals67]

(04-14-2021, 11:09 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Trade down. Draft Slater. Use extra draft pick to double dip at Oline and improve two spots along the line.

And the Bengals vs Browns is on NFL Network right now if anyone needs to be reminded how bad that line is.

Edited to add: Just watched Johnson get pancaked and Williams beat on the outside and both Dlineman fell into Burrows lower legs resulting in a penalty. Buckled Burrow’s right knee. Just a little foreshadowing of how Joe’s season would end.

Really good idea if they could pull this off.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-15-2021, 10:47 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Indeed.
And Spain was coming from a different offense and only started one game with the Bengals before the WFT game where Burrow got knocked out for the season.

I do think this OL already looks better on paper than when Jordan, Redmond/Johnson, and Hart were starting.
I'm still nervous if both Spain and XSF start this year, as that could mean we're one injury away from Jordan starting again.
Hopefully they can get an OL on Day 2 who can either start at OG or at least be good enough to be the first guy off the bench.

I believe XSF and Spain will be competing at LG.  That is both of their natural position, and it allows for immediate quality depth should one of them be injured early as it happened last year.  

I am starting to think that the player they get in Rd 2 might just be the best lineman still on the board, and there is a chance that could be a guard.  I am not sure that I would take a tackle like Walker Little (who I like) or Spencer Brown (who I love, as a long term prospect) and project them to start at RT and move Reiff inside.  Nor do I think either of those players would make a solid option at RG.  But a player like Ben Cleveland could be a really good starting RG and then in Rd 3, you could go after a tackle that you could try to develop behind Reiff.  I am unsure if Spencer Brown would make it to Rd 3, but I would be doing backflips if we came away with a first three rounds of Chase, Cleveland, and Brown.  

I just realized that our #2 and #3 picks would be CLEVELAND BROWN.  Funny.

Another possibility is sliding a bit in Rd 2 and trying to pick up an extra 3rd that could be used a pass rusher.  

[Shouldamapads]

(04-15-2021, 10:28 AM)Burma Wrote: It really does, and the one thing I have learned about that, is you can never change a mind that doesn't want to be changed. 

Says the leftist.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-15-2021, 11:33 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote: Spain and XSF really should really just be backups.  At center, Hopkins and Price are barely serviceable.  MJ being one injury away from starting is so scary.

So, hoping a day 2 draft pick can start right away, XSF and/or Spain can now somehow become a good starter(s) halfway through their careers and Hopkins recovers fully so we don't have to play Price is a lot to ask for don't you think?  

I see Burrow having a very difficult time with guys just pouring through the middle all over again.  I don't want to watch Brandon Allen anymore at QB because of the "perfect storm" that's been hanging around for years now.  OL has been our biggest problem and it has to be fixed or we go nowhere.  

But ya, Chase is awesome.  It's too bad our OL sucks so bad.  Defense isn't much better either.  Actually WR, I think is our strongest group besides QB (when Burrow gets his knee back again that is.)

Well, I disagree that XSF and Spain aren't good starters.  I see them as slightly above average and, with a full offseason of preparation (which neither had last year) and Frank Pollack, I believe they will be just fine competing at the LG position with the other being the first guard off the bench for the RG or LG position.   And, yes, I believe a day 2 starter at RG is very feasible.  Just like Tee Higgins did a year ago.  I don't think that is a lot to ask for at all.  Hopkins should be ready to go week 1, and Price will be a quality backup.  

Again, compared to the start of last year:

Jonah the rookie vs. Jonah in year 2 
XSF/Spain vs. Mike Jordan
Hopkins vs Hopkins
Fred Johnson/Alex Redmond vs. Ben Cleveland
Bobby Hart vs. Riley Reiff

Add in Frank Pollack vs. the turd from last year and you have a substantially better line in 2021.

There is also a chance that instead of going with someone like Spencer Brown in Rd 3 that they pick up a center than can also play guard like Humphry.  

[*ochocincos*]

(04-15-2021, 02:06 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I believe XSF and Spain will be competing at LG.  That is both of their natural position, and it allows for immediate quality depth should one of them be injured early as it happened last year.  

I am starting to think that the player they get in Rd 2 might just be the best lineman still on the board, and there is a chance that could be a guard.  I am not sure that I would take a tackle like Walker Little (who I like) or Spencer Brown (who I love, as a long term prospect) and project them to start at RT and move Reiff inside.  Nor do I think either of those players would make a solid option at RG.  But a player like Ben Cleveland could be a really good starting RG and then in Rd 3, you could go after a tackle that you could try to develop behind Reiff.  I am unsure if Spencer Brown would make it to Rd 3, but I would be doing backflips if we came away with a first three rounds of Chase, Cleveland, and Brown.  

I just realized that our #2 and #3 picks would be CLEVELAND BROWN.  Funny.

Another possibility is sliding a bit in Rd 2 and trying to pick up an extra 3rd that could be used a pass rusher.  

I could see an IOL taken in Rd 2 who starts at RG and then someone like Brown or Walker taken in Rd 3-4 to groom behind Reiff.

I could also see a scenario where they take a guy in Rd 2 who could start at RG as a rookie then move to OT in 2022 (Cosmi, Leatherwood), and then grab a developmental guard like Kendrick Green in the middle rounds.