PFF pass block comparison - Bengals OL vs Bucs OL

[Murdock2420]

(04-16-2021, 02:50 PM)Au165 Wrote: If you are an analytics guy, not sure if you are, Barrett was REALLY good in limited snaps in Denver. You mention starts, but he appeared in almost every game in 4 out of the 5 years there as an important rotational player. He played 45%/36%/58%/26% (Injured) of defensive snaps while in Denver and was ultra-productive on a disruption per snap basis. 

My point is pretty simple, guys get passed over. There will be guys who are on the market right now in FA, that no one wants, who will end up on a roster and be productive starters next year. As I said, Spain playing multiple positions because we had no one else and moved him to plug holes didn't bode well for his success. We will see how it goes but I think he can be a serviceable player here.

Again... he was a rotational piece that was my point. And you proved it. He went to a new system, new coaches and saw the field at an extremely higher rate and was amazing.

You compared that type of situation to Spain.

Who was a full time starter... lost his job. Came here, became a full time starter and didn't become an Pro Bowler in a new scheme when handed a full time job again. 

Spain isn't over-looked. He is what he is. A decent guy to have on the line but a guy that you can easily upgrade over. Barrett was misused and underused (you're own numbers show that) and then he got his chance and showed what he could do. 

[bengals1969]

(04-16-2021, 01:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, but the expectation is the Bengals drafted a very cerebral QB who can operate very similar to Brady.
The expectation is he should be able to succeed with "just" a solid OL.

Well Burrow isn't at Brady's level now, not close.  Who said the expectation was we draft a promising young QB and give him  just a solid OL, whatever solid means?   In 2020 we had excellent runners but no running game and a QB who did more running for his professional life than RB's did upfield.  Maybe 3 new starters would be the way to go?  They have one so far, will they get more in the draft?

[coachmcneil71]

(04-16-2021, 12:46 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: just need smarter coaching and play calling

Deserves rep by everyone that reads this thread! Excellent post by the OP. Shows what I've been thinking all along. There's absolutely no reason that this offensive line should have been this bad for this long. O lineman have come and gone, but this online remains the same.

It ALL comes down to coaching and play calling. That, and allowing our best olineman to move on in Free Agency by low balling the contract offers, specifically on the oline. 

Several NFL franchise's have been getting the most out of supposed lesser talented draft picks for years!!! We spend draft picks on supposed top talented olineman and they rarely seem to pan out, specifically in the past decade.

[fredtoast]

(04-16-2021, 02:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Thanks.

I do think Spain will be better than he was in 2020, based on his previous seasons in Buffalo.

2019 pass blocking grade (633 PB snaps) - 70.4
2018 pass blocking grade (466 PB snaps) - 75.6
2017 pass blocking grade (496 PB snaps) - 74.0
2016 pass blocking grade (463 PB snaps) - 77.6

But the Bengals should draft a couple OL regardless of whether we have faith in Spain, XSF, Hopkins, Reiff, and Williams, as every player behind them on the depth chart currently is a bad pass blocker.

Spain is a sort of mystery to me.  He was obviously pretty good in Buffalo for a few years.  They gave him a 3 yr $15 million contract and there was some crazy stat about how he had not allowed a sack in a couple of years or some thing like that.

Then last year they just release him.  I realize they had brought in some fresh new talent on the O-line, but that contract was reasonable for a solid starter yet they did not try to trade him.  Then when he became a free agent this year we re-signed him for league minimum absolute bottom of the barrel $1.1 million.

[Au165]

(04-16-2021, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Spain is a sort of mystery to me.  He was obviously pretty good in Buffalo for a few years.  They gave him a 3 yr $15 million contract and there was some crazy stat about how he had not allowed a sack in a couple of years or some thing like that.

Then last year they just release him.  I realize they had brought in some fresh new talent on the O-line, but that contract was reasonable for a solid starter yet they did not try to trade him.  Then when he became a free agent this year we re-signed him for league minimum absolute bottom of the barrel $1.1 million.

There was a rumor his attitude in Buffalo went to absolute shit. Maybe he has hit rock bottom? There was definitely something weird there for them to move on as they did. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 03:20 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Well Burrow isn't at Brady's level now, not close.  Who said the expectation was we draft a promising young QB and give him  just a solid OL, whatever solid means?   In 2020 we had excellent runners but no running game and a QB who did more running for his professional life than RB's did upfield.  Maybe 3 new starters would be the way to go?  They have one so far, will they get more in the draft?

I expect they'll get just one guy who they would feel comfortable starting and another 1-2 more for depth that might develop into a starter in a year or two.

[lone bengal]

Interesting comparison I think based on this example we’d have to rely on Hopkins returning to form from a week 17 ACL and bank on Williams playing a whole season. XFS is a backup level player in my opinion ,he was bad with the Texans at the end , was cut by the Titans in 2018 , a backup in Dallas and played 5 games for us. The other thing is Tampa had a super bowl roster and the Bengals aren’t even close and should be thinking long term. They have no long term answer at either guard spot , RT and center is somewhat a question mark.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

2020 Bucs:
Bruce Arians
Tom Brady
Mike Evans
Chris Godwin
Rob Gronkowski

Bengals have absolutely nothing to compare to those 5.

[Stewy]

(04-16-2021, 12:46 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: just need smarter coaching and play calling

And better assignment (not just blitz) recognition, which is coaching and personal preparation (film)

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

So according to PFF, The Bengals have damn near a Super Bowl line.

OK

I'm curious what the run grade ratings are.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-16-2021, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

Add a few Lineman early in the Draft and yeah, I think we might be alright. Pollack needs to work with these guys on blitz 
pickup and communication. I think this is the main thing. Also Spain and XSF getting a full Offseason should really help them.

I am with Joelist BTW. I don't think Spain was nearly as bad as that PFF score.

Fred coming in and saying "oh nobody wanted him and we got him for peanuts so he is shit" is also a dumb thing to say.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I can live with Spain as the weakest link on our OL. When it’s guys like Jordan and Redmond that’s when you have to worry.

[Essex Johnson]

Big difference Brady behind center vs Burrow, not a good comparison

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-16-2021, 07:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I can live with Spain as the weakest link on our OL. When it’s guys like Jordan and Redmond that’s when you have to worry.

Problem is Jonah has missed 26 games over the last 2 years. XSF has missed 23 games over the last 3 years.

As things currently stand, you're probably going to get an (un)healthy amount of backups playing. 

With an OL of Williams/Spain/Hopkins/XSF/Reiff, they have played 16 games in a season a grand total of 3 seasons out of a possible 14 since the start of 2018. (Spain in '19, Hopkins in '18 and '19.) The only reliably healthy one of that group (Hopkins) is recovering from a Week 17 knee injury.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-16-2021, 07:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Problem is Jonah has missed 26 games over the last 2 years. XSF has missed 23 games over the last 3 years.

As things currently stand, you're probably going to get an (un)healthy amount of backups playing. 

With an OL of Williams/Spain/Hopkins/XSF/Reiff, they have played 16 games in a season a grand total of 3 seasons out of a possible 14 since the start of 2018. (Spain in '19, Hopkins in '18 and '19.) The only reliably healthy one of that group (Hopkins) is recovering from a Week 17 knee injury.

I would hope a day 2 draft pick can come in and take a starting spot from XSF.

[fredtoast]

(04-16-2021, 06:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Fred coming in and saying "oh nobody wanted him and we got him for peanuts so he is shit" is also a dumb thing to say.

Yeah, right, professional scouts for NFL teams are all dumbasses.

[PDub80]

(04-16-2021, 08:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right, professional scouts for NFL teams are all dumbasses.

Kind of having it both ways when it suits you, right?

Pro scouts recommended drafting him. Pro scouts recommended signing him. Pro scouts cut him. Bengals sign him and they are dumbasses?

Imagine if that line of thinking was put on Drew Breese? 

- Chargers cut him, they must be super smart and do everything right.

- Saints sign him, they are crazy. He is horrible. See, the Chargers guys said so.

This circular logic is in direct conflict with itself.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(04-16-2021, 01:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't want to factor that part in because it's hard to measure, but it does seem that Arians and Leftwich operate a (much) better offense than Taylor does.

Honestly, I know people talk a lot about Joe Brady as a potential HC replacement for Taylor, but Leftwich needs to be considered too if Taylor doesn't rise up to expectations this year.

Would anyone be interested in a Leftwich interview were we to not have Zac around next offseason. I loved that guy in college and NFL and he seems to be a solid offensive coach.

[Benton]

(04-16-2021, 04:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2020 Bucs:
Bruce Arians
Tom Brady
Mike Evans
Chris Godwin
Rob Gronkowski

Bengals have absolutely nothing to compare to those 5.

Yeah, I think numbers are great, but they don't always tell the whole story.

Tom brady solidified his legend. Dude knows how to win big games. Bruce is a decent veteran coach. Outstanding receivers.

We had a good rookie qb, we only threw the ball because of running game problems, our top te was out, etc.

The grades may not be far off, but you know what was. Sacks.

TB was sacked 21 times through his SB run.
JB got sacked 32 times in 10 games. 

11 more sacks in nearly half as many games.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-16-2021, 08:14 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Kind of having it both ways when it suits you, right?

Pro scouts recommended drafting him. Pro scouts recommended signing him. Pro scouts cut him. Bengals sign him and they are dumbasses?

Imagine if that line of thinking was put on Drew Breese? 

- Chargers cut him, they must be super smart and do everything right.

- Saints sign him, they are crazy. He is horrible. See, the Chargers guys said so.

This circular logic is in direct conflict with itself.

Chargers didn't cut Drew Brees. They drafted Eli, traded Eli for Phillip Rivers and then Brees woke up, forcing Rivers to sit for two seasons as the Chargers designated Brees as a Franchise player after his breakout 2004 season. They offered him a 5 year contract after 2005 but he got a better offer from New Orleans.