Can someone name a better receiving core?

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 05:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Oh, I see what this is now.

Since the conversation has now magically shifted to draft position it's clear this is about nothing more than drafting Sewell.

Why didn't you just say that instead of looking for lazy examples to justify the pick in a roundabout way?

You said (implied) two things:  1.) Higgins and Boyd are comprable to Hill and Kelce. and 2.) The Chiefs have nothing else after them.

Both of those are stupid opinions.  I'm sorry, but they are.  And I never once said anything about draft position.  I never said anything about us drafting Chase.  I just replied to what was written (the above). 

If you're looking to have that conversation please look anywhere else.  I'm draft'd out.  I'm to the point where i just want to get over with.  I'm so God damn tired of every single conversation (often disguised as something else) revolving around a singular draft pick.

Forgive me for walking into a conversation that was presented to be about the quality of the Chiefs top 2 WR's actually being about the stupidity of using a 1st round on a WR in 2021.  Had I known that I would have never replied.

Funny.. I only mentioned the draft once guess the rest of what I said makes total sense like the clear advantages in KC when it comes to QB play, and coaching and play calling.

Just for fun since you were stunned I compared Higgins to Hill. I went and pulled up their 2020 numbers.

Hill 135 targets, 87 recs, 1276 yards

Higgins 108 targets, 67 targets, 908 yards

So let's give Higgins the #1 WR targets and receptions. 30 more targets and 20 more receptions and they are the same (3 extra targets for Tee).

take his average, 13.6 yards per reception and apply it to 20 catches. That is 272 more yards. 908 + 272 = 1180 which would have been 12th in the league ahead of Brandin Cooks.

You jumped in on a reply that was directed at someone else, and I stand by my statement. KC has two real weapons. They are very high end weapons, but that's what they have. We have Boyd who is a really good weapon not sure he'll ever be "elite" but you could do a lot worse for a 2nd target, and Higgins who literally can develop into a top tier WR. Which means, we'd be also have to real weapons.

Again, this fanbase wants to sell Higgins short and I just don't get why.

[bengals67]

WRs are only as good as their second year QB who is only as good as his o line and whether his team can run the ball.

Picking Chase is madness given the issues with Bengals o line.

I would have felt differently if they had done more in free agency to address the long standing woefully inadequate o line.

I'm concerned they will draft Chase and then say they have addressed the o line by a second or third round rookie or  signing another guard like XSF.

That is not acceptable and beyond stubborn and stupid.

Don't draft one of the top two o linemen and then watch the team have no running game again and Burrow gets his knee shredded again this year.

I want to give kudos to several who have said- if possible- trade out of 5, maybe still get the northwestern kid and one or more high draft picks this year or next.  That is a way better option than taking a luxury pick WR with the 5th selection.

By the way, someone said Collingsworth is on team Chase and that is not what I heard him say. I heard him say that Chase was fantastic but it wont matter if Burrow gets murdered again this year or words to that effect.

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-26-2021, 05:48 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I agree those guys beat out Boyd and Higgins. I meant after/if we add Chase. I would think on paper our top 3 would beat out those teams top 3. Or really what I was asking is our top 3 would be even in my mind with each other. Where as with Atlanta, Vikings and even KC they may have other good receivers behind they're top 2 but they know where they stand in the offense compared to the top 2. If adding Chase may ultimately might lead to turmoil because Boyd has established himself and Higgins has shown alot of promise. If Chase comes in does someone target share start to drop off/ role in the offense. I don't know I think I was just trying to think of an interesting perspective before the draft.

If this past year is any indication, no. Green, Boyd and Higgins all had 100+ targets. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 05:51 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Funny.. I only mentioned the draft once guess the rest of what I said makes total sense like the clear advantages in KC when it comes to QB play, and coaching and play calling.

Just for fun since you were stunned I compared Higgins to Hill. I went and pulled up their 2020 numbers.

Hill 135 targets, 87 recs, 1276 yards

Higgins 108 targets, 67 targets, 908 yards

So let's give Higgins the #1 WR targets and receptions. 30 more targets and 20 more receptions and they are the same (3 extra targets for Tee).

take his average, 13.6 yards per reception and apply it to 20 catches. That is 272 more yards. 908 + 272 = 1180 which would have been 12th in the league ahead of Brandin Cooks.

You jumped in on a reply that was directed at someone else, and I stand by my statement. KC has two real weapons. They are very high end weapons, but that's what they have. We have Boyd who is a really good weapon not sure he'll ever be "elite" but you could do a lot worse for a 2nd target, and Higgins who literally can develop into a top tier WR. Which means, we'd be also have to real weapons.

Again, this fanbase wants to sell Higgins short and I just don't get why.

The only thing I'm stunned by is how I managed to get roped into another one of these conversations.

I replied to and countered your comparion of the Chiefs top 2 vs. our top 2.  I also took exception to the claim they had "nothing" after them.

That was the conversation I was looking to have.  And as soon as I saw you lead off with draft position in your reply I releazed my mistake.  I honestly did not read the rest of it.  Just like I didn't really read much of this.

I could not care less about trying to have conversation about what you have written.  I'd rather go stand in the BMV for an hour than waste another second of my time talking about anything related to the 1st pick.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-26-2021, 05:51 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Hill 135 targets, 87 recs, 1276 yards

Higgins 108 targets, 67 targets, 908 yards

That's shocking. I guess I could've looked that up but I would not have thought they're #s were that comparable. People have been asking if Higgins could be a # 1 and even though I liked what I saw from him I wasn't sure but seeing those #s puts it into perspective. People also want to ask if he could handle going against the #1 corner. But not every team has a shutdown corner. Even AJ in his prime had corners he got shutdown by.

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 06:17 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: That's shocking. I guess I could've looked that up but I would not have thought they're #s were that comparable. People have been asking if Higgins could be a # 1 and even though I liked what I saw from him I wasn't sure but seeing those #s puts it into perspective. People also want to ask if he could handle going against the #1 corner. But not every team has a shutdown corner. Even AJ in his prime had corners he got shutdown by.

For some reason, people really are down on Higgins and I just don't get why. As for the CB question, it is valid but we won't know till he goes up against them. All he did was beat the guys in front of him last season.

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 06:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The only thing I'm stunned by is how I managed to get roped into another one of these conversations.

I replied to and countered your comparion of the Chiefs top 2 vs. our top 2.  I also took exception to the claim they had "nothing" after them.

That was the conversation I was looking to have.  And as soon as I saw you lead off with draft position in your reply I releazed my mistake.  I honestly did not read the rest of it.  Just like I didn't really read much of this.

I could not care less about trying to have conversation about what you have written.  I'd rather go stand in the BMV for an hour than waste another second of my time talking about anything related to the 1st pick.

Cool.

Have fun, I'll keep talking Higgins up with people who want to discuss it. Get the Bengal plate liner while you are there.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 06:22 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: For some reason, people really are down on Higgins and I just don't get why.

I think this is in your head.  I haven't seen anyone say anything to indicate they're really down on Tee Higgins.

Who are these people you are talking about?  What did they say exactly?

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 06:17 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: That's shocking. I guess I could've looked that up but I would not have thought they're #s were that comparable.

I mean, they're really not.  He left out the fact that Tyreek Hill had 15 TD's last year and sat oout the last game of the season.

Tyreek Hill was 8th in the league in receiving yards, and 2nd in TD's in 15 games played.  Higgins was 28th in the league in receiving yards, and 33rd in TD's in 16 games played.

Fwiw, pointing this out doesn't mean Tee Higgins isn't good.  He had a fantastic rookie year. But I think some people need to be very careful with some of these comparisons.  Let's wait and see how he progresses before we start rolling his name out there with some of the names in this thread.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-26-2021, 06:36 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, they're really not.  He left out the fact that Tyreek Hill had 15 TD's last year and sat oout the last game of the season.

Tyreek Hill was 8th in the league in receiving yards, and 2nd in TD's in 15 games played.  Higgins was 28th in the league in receiving yards, and 33rd in TD's in 16 games played.

Fwiw, pointing this out doesn't mean Tee Higgins isn't good.  He had a fantastic rookie year. But I think some people need to be very careful with some of these comparisons.  Let's wait and see how he progresses before we start rolling his name out there with some of the names in this thread.

Okay yeah I guess they're is a little more to it than just yards and receptions and Hill has the game changing speed that Higgins doesn't. I know your not saying Higgins is bad but it was his rookie year but yeah Hill definitely does have some talent Higgins doesn't possess. I think the people he's talking about hating on Higgins are the guys saying we have to draft Chase because Higgins isn't a #1 and a mid rd WR isn't enough to help this offense. Which is probably too early to tell either way. I mean Boyd didn't breakout until his 3rd year and has been solid ever since.

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 06:36 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, they're really not.  He left out the fact that Tyreek Hill had 15 TD's last year and sat oout the last game of the season.

Tyreek Hill was 8th in the league in receiving yards, and 2nd in TD's in 15 games played.  Higgins was 28th in the league in receiving yards, and 33rd in TD's in 16 games played.

Fwiw, pointing this out doesn't mean Tee Higgins isn't good.  He had a fantastic rookie year. But I think some people need to be very careful with some of these comparisons.  Let's wait and see how he progresses before we start rolling his name out there with some of the names in this thread.

And that was my point Wes.

He had a fantastic rookie season and by some people he is being put down. 

Hill sat out the last game and Higgins had no catches in the first game so that is a wash.

And again from week 10 on Higgins was productive with Brandon Allen at QB!!! 

[PDub80]

(04-26-2021, 05:21 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I admit to not be being the most knowledgeable on the schematics of the game of football and if someone asked me what 11 personnel was I wouldn't have been able to explain it. I know that our offense wants to run multiple WR sets. I also think its safe to assume that anyone on these boards or who watches football by choice knows what "empty" means. You did make some good points that Tyler Boyd and Higgins don't strike me as "Me Guys" and I agree that Boyd is excellent and Higgins showed alot of potential.

But I refuse to characterize Dunlap as a "Me Guy". He's a professional athlete who put in a ton of work and played here for 10 years. Anyone who gets demoted at work would be upset but to put the kind of work that these guys put in for again 10 years and have the coaches not even have the gull to sit down with you and let you know whats going on is ridiculous. I just can't understand how fans can be so quick to write someone off over a coaching staff. A coaching staff that has literally done nothing but be so terrible they get the #1 pick in the draft. Then immediately turn around and try and get said #1 pick killed with they're play calling. I think if Dunlap hadn't got upset it would've spoke more about his character than the other way around.

On Dunlap... Dave Lapham & Dan Hoard absolutely gutted him on their podcast after he was kicked out of town. Kind of spilled the beans. I also know someone in the org who absolutely rolls their eyes at the mention of Carlos. A lot of behind close doors BS from that guy. Which is sad, because he was awesome his first few years in Cincy... but Marvin put up with stuff the current staff doesn't... and so it goes.

Lapham & Hoard discussed an interview before this last season. Carlos was asked by them how he's lasted so long in this league and stayed healthy. His answer: "I make business decisions off the field with my body and I make business decisions on the field".... Meaning: He's looking out for himself on physical plays. He's not out there sticking his nose in the pile. Lapham, post trade, absolutely KILLED him for it. He roasted him.

They said EVERYONE knew what he meant by that and that the coaches heard it and were furious that that was how he looked at it.

This was in the The Bengals Booth Podcast Episode: Kiss And Say Goodbye, but has since been edited out.

In another podcast, if I recall correctly, they discussed how Carlos just wanted sacks and would leave his lane/gap all the time just trying to run around the OT. This caused major issues in the run defense, but he didn'tcare because he was making business decisions on the field for himself and trying to not get hurt by playing the run or getting in a pile. Carlos got benched because he refused to play within the defense and do his job and the coaches said enough was enough.... Dunlap then flipped out, posted depth chart stuff on IG, tried to fight his coach, etc etc. Carlos was interested in Carlos and that was that.

[*jason*]

(04-26-2021, 05:09 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So again... better coaching and better play calling and better scouting since all the people you are pimping in this elite group are 2nd, 5th and 2nd rounders....

As for Hardman, his yards were 20 better then a broken down Green.

We had no passing attack worth mentioning once Burrow went down (with the exception of one great game by Allen). So yeah I'm not surprised our 4th, 5th and 6th targets had next to no yards. 

Week 12 136 yards passing
Week 13 153 yards passing
Week 14 217 yards passing
Week 16 371 yards (great game)
Week 17 48 yards passing... 48 ***** yards.

And Finley never went over 100 yards passing in any game.

So before we start creaming our pants over the numbers of their 3rd, 4th, 8th options how about some real hard facts.

1) Our QB was gone after Washington and all the passing numbers fell off. So their guys having more "numbers" isn't a surprise.
2) Mahomes is better then Burrow. (Currently before the Burrow boys freak out.)
3) Reid is better then Taylor.
4) Bieniemy is better then Brian Callahan.

We have no idea how good Tee Higgins can actually be, he was on a steady rise up each week with Burrow and went off the rails just like the offense did after Burrow gets hurt.

I honestly believe Tee will be Top 15 possibly top 10 in receiving yards this season if they give him the chance and aren't forcing targets to a certain WR like they did with Green.

Tee Higgins didn't have some extreme drop-off in production after Burrow went down. He did nothing when Finley started, but was fairly steady with Brandon Allen at QB. That's a sign of a good WR.

I think the addition of Trevor Lawrence is gonna have people talking about DJ Chark, Marvin Jones, and Shenault as the year unfolds... Terrible QB play really hampered Chark last season.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-26-2021, 08:05 PM)jason Wrote: Tee Higgins didn't have some extreme drop-off in production after Burrow went down. He did nothing when Finley started, but was fairly steady with Brandon Allen at QB. That's a sign of a good WR.

I think the addition of Trevor Lawrence is gonna have people talking about DJ Chark, Marvin Jones, and Shenault as the year unfolds... Terrible QB play really hampered Chark last season.

Thats true that wide receiver core could explode in Jacksonville. I'll have to put that in the fantasy football memory bank.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-26-2021, 01:10 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Funny nobody has mentioned how the 2-SB teams
Last year had great to elite recieving cores.
I think these days your WR/TEs as a whole have
To be great to elite in order to be a great to elite team.

Only if you look at last year, and only if you look at the Super Bowl teams is this true. Even then, KC has one elite WR...unless you're arguing we should take Kyle Pitts as our Kelce. Tampa has Tom Brady...who also went the SB very recently with no elite weapons.

(04-26-2021, 04:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think our WR corps could be looking good, sure...but when was the last time we went into a season without a thread wondering how anyone could ever stop our WRs?  It's always a fun time.

2010 with TO, Chad, Shipley and Gresh? That said, we couldn't run block (32nd in YPC) or play defense to save our lives that year.

Or maybe 2015 with AJ, Marvin Jones, Sanu and Eifert? That said, I thought we only needed all those weapons cuz' Dalton sucked so bad.

Now we need weapons just cuz.

(04-26-2021, 06:31 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think this is in your head.  I haven't seen anyone say anything to indicate they're really down on Tee Higgins.

Who are these people you are talking about?  What did they say exactly?

People have said he has no shot at being a WR1. His ceiling is a #2. He gets no separation. I've seen him compared to Mo Sanu. Someone in this thread said he'd be a 400 yard guy with KC. Etc. That's just over the last couple days.

Kinda harsh considering the season he just had and being a young guy (obviously).

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-26-2021, 07:46 PM)PDub80 Wrote: On Dunlap... Dave Lapham & Dan Hoard absolutely gutted him on their podcast after he was kicked out of town. Kind of spilled the beans. I also know someone in the org who absolutely rolls their eyes at the mention of Carlos. A lot of behind close doors BS from that guy. Which is sad, because he was awesome his first few years in Cincy... but Marvin put up with stuff the current staff doesn't... and so it goes.

Lapham & Hoard discussed an interview before this last season. Carlos was asked by them how he's lasted so long in this league and stayed healthy. His answer: "I make business decisions off the field with my body and I make business decisions on the field".... Meaning: He's looking out for himself on physical plays. He's not out there sticking his nose in the pile. Lapham, post trade, absolutely KILLED him for it. He roasted him.

They said EVERYONE knew what he meant by that and that the coaches heard it and were furious that that was how he looked at it.

This was in the The Bengals Booth Podcast Episode: Kiss And Say Goodbye, but has since been edited out.

In another podcast, if I recall correctly, they discussed how Carlos just wanted sacks and would leave his lane/gap all the time just trying to run around the OT. This caused major issues in the run defense, but he didn'tcare because he was making business decisions on the field for himself and trying to not get hurt by playing the run or getting in a pile. Carlos got benched because he refused to play within the defense and do his job and the coaches said enough was enough.... Dunlap then flipped out, posted depth chart stuff on IG, tried to fight his coach, etc etc. Carlos was interested in Carlos and that was that.

I can't pretend what exactly went on. But him saying a business decision I don't take as necessarily a bad thing. If you go standing around a pile your bound to get rolled up on and he could've been referring to things just like that. I remember the fight on the sideline last play of the game and baker threw a winning TD to seal the game against us. Dunlap had his man beat and would've had a sack or most likely altered the play only to be held and not called. Afterward there was a shot of them on the sideline. I wonder who instigated that. I like Lapham but he's getting one side of the story I highly doubt this coaching staff just won't put up with the stuff Marvin would. If they're that accountable how about showing Micheal Jordan the door. If you tackle your guy into our #1 pick QB you can find another job. Maybe car salesman.

[*jason*]

(04-26-2021, 07:46 PM)PDub80 Wrote: On Dunlap... Dave Lapham & Dan Hoard absolutely gutted him on their podcast after he was kicked out of town. Kind of spilled the beans. I also know someone in the org who absolutely rolls their eyes at the mention of Carlos. A lot of behind close doors BS from that guy. Which is sad, because he was awesome his first few years in Cincy... but Marvin put up with stuff the current staff doesn't... and so it goes.

Lapham & Hoard discussed an interview before this last season. Carlos was asked by them how he's lasted so long in this league and stayed healthy. His answer: "I make business decisions off the field with my body and I make business decisions on the field".... Meaning: He's looking out for himself on physical plays. He's not out there sticking his nose in the pile. Lapham, post trade, absolutely KILLED him for it. He roasted him.

They said EVERYONE knew what he meant by that and that the coaches heard it and were furious that that was how he looked at it.

This was in the The Bengals Booth Podcast Episode: Kiss And Say Goodbye, but has since been edited out.

In another podcast, if I recall correctly, they discussed how Carlos just wanted sacks and would leave his lane/gap all the time just trying to run around the OT. This caused major issues in the run defense, but he didn'tcare because he was making business decisions on the field for himself and trying to not get hurt by playing the run or getting in a pile. Carlos got benched because he refused to play within the defense and do his job and the coaches said enough was enough.... Dunlap then flipped out, posted depth chart stuff on IG, tried to fight his coach, etc etc. Carlos was interested in Carlos and that was that.

Lapham is a paid mouthpiece, and has zero credibility with me after his bullshit with Jermaine Gresham in 2014. Carlos Dunlap being bad against the run is news to me.

I think he's an awful broadcaster as well. He sounds like a buffoon.

[PDub80]

(04-26-2021, 08:19 PM)jason Wrote: Lapham is a paid mouthpiece, and has zero credibility with me after his bullshit with Jermaine Gresham in 2014. Carlos Dunlap being bad against the run is news to me.

I think he's an awful broadcaster as well. He sounds like a buffoon.

I think you'll be in the minority there, but I respect your opinion!

[Shake n Blake]

(04-26-2021, 08:19 PM)jason Wrote: Lapham is a paid mouthpiece, and has zero credibility with me after his bullshit with Jermaine Gresham in 2014. Carlos Dunlap being bad against the run is news to me.

I think he's an awful broadcaster as well. He sounds like a buffoon.

I've never understood the hatred for Lap over the Gresh situation.

Like you just said...he's a paid mouthpiece. Meaning he says what the organization is thinking.

Like Marv said: "Gresh is a man of many, many, many, many moods" (actual quote). Everything I read suggested Gresh wasn't a particularly liked guy in that building.

And if Lap thought Gresh was sandbagging it, I'm sure someone in the building said Gresh was sandbagging it. I doubt he made it up out of thin air.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 08:19 PM)jason Wrote: Lapham is a paid mouthpiece, and has zero credibility with me after his bullshit with Jermaine Gresham in 2014.

Yup.  I'd rep you'd more if I could.

I'm sure you know this, but for others that don't or never considered it:  Notice how Dave Lapham never said shit about AJ Green during 2019.

Hiss whole rant about Gresham was that if you go through pre-game drills like that you should be out their playing with your team.  (Pretty sure this was a one game thing).  Meanwhile, AJ ran through pre-game drills for like half the season and Lapham didn't say one f'n word.

Only difference was one guy was on his way out, and the other guy was one of the organization's favorites.

Dave Lapham is a total clown.  Honestly one of the worst announcers I've ever heard in my entire life.  He makes it impossible to follow the game at times and I don't how anyone thinks stuff like "The Steelers brought a 60 gallon drum of whoop-ass and sprayed it all over the Bengals" is funny or entertaining.