Carman At Guard- Consulted Willie Anderson

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-11-2021, 05:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: To be fair, they probably didn't know there would be an effort problem with Ogbuehi, and no one knew about Fisher's heart condition.
Both guys had the size, length, and athleticism to become good NFL OTs.
They just didn't pan out for things that people wouldn't have been able to know about.

From what I remember, Fisher was better in college than Ogbuehi and didn't have injury concerns, but Ogbuehi had such elite length and athleticism that Alexander probably thought he could easily turn him into at least a serviceable OT with some coaching and added strength.

Ogbuehi was demoted after playing LT . . . during college. That’s not a good indicator for NFL success. I would consider that a huge red flag. I don’t care about “elite” measurables when their play doesn’t match. And Fisher under performed prior to his heart condition and it didn’t affect his blocking proficiency. Yet, Alexander was still claiming they would be good players after he was hired by the Cowboys. That’s just a complete refusal to acknowledge the reality of the situation. And even more reason not to listen to him.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-11-2021, 04:47 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So when Carmen hits this year at guard, are all y'all going to come back and revisit this thread, or pretend like it didn't happen?

I hope he turns into the second coming of Whitworth, but a broken clock is right twice a day and that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fixed because it’s correct 0.0014% of the day.

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-11-2021, 04:47 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So when Carmen hits this year at guard, are all y'all going to come back and revisit this thread, or pretend like it didn't happen?

 It depends on how he compares to all of the other OL we passed on to draft him.  He will also have to be good for more than 1 year, if he is not a productive starter for 3 years then I consider it a bust as a second round pick.  His durability will always be a concern in my opinion.  If he ends up making the pro-bowl and becoming a 10 year plus starter then I will be happy to admit I made a mistake.  I actually want him to be good I just think the chances of it happening are very low.  If he would have been a 4th rounder then I would have been very happy taking a chance on him.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(05-11-2021, 11:01 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:  It depends on how he compares to all of the other OL we passed on to draft him.  He will also have to be good for more than 1 year, if he is not a productive starter for 3 years then I consider it a bust as a second round pick.  His durability will always be a concern in my opinion.  If he ends up making the pro-bowl and becoming a 10 year plus starter then I will be happy to admit I made a mistake.  I actually want him to be good I just think the chances of it happening are very low.  If he would have been a 4th rounder then I would have been very happy taking a chance on him.

Especially since he should’ve had a 4th round grade. And the same question goes back to all the chase fans. What happens when terrace Marshall becomes a solid pro and penei Sewell is a hall of famer

[Sled21]

(05-11-2021, 11:08 PM)SadFaceBengal1 5 Wrote:
Especially since he should’ve had a 4th round grade.  And the same question goes back to all the chase fans.  What happens when terrace Marshall becomes a solid pro and penei Sewell is a hall of famer

Says who, because no one I have heard?

[PDub80]

(05-11-2021, 02:06 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Not only do we have one of the smallest scouting departments, but Mike Brown never listened to them or the coaches anyways.

This isn't true. It just came out over this offseason that Mike Brown was all set to draft Drew Brees, but the Bengals coaching staff talked him out of it last minute and had him draft Justin Smith.

I find it nearly an impossible stretch to think that's the only time that happened. Same thing with Dalton. MB wanted to draft Kapernick at the time. Coaches wanted Dalton, so that's who they got.

Mike Brown gets a lot of stuff dumped on him due to perception.... mainly because he just allows it to happen and doesn't do interviews. It is what it is.

[PDub80]

(05-11-2021, 11:08 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Especially since he should’ve had a 4th round grade.  And the same question goes back to all the chase fans.  What happens when terrace Marshall becomes a solid pro and penei Sewell is a hall of famer

The 4th round grade thing is nonsense. Could a media outlet or pundit have written or said that? Maybe. Does that make it a concensus grade? NO.

The rest of your post is just imaginary. 

[TJ528]

(05-12-2021, 08:47 AM)PDub80 Wrote: This isn't true. It just came out over this offseason that Mike Brown was all set to draft Drew Brees, but the Bengals coaching staff talked him out of it last minute and had him draft Justin Smith.

I find it nearly an impossible stretch to think that's the only time that happened. Same thing with Dalton. MB wanted to draft Kapernick at the time. Coaches wanted Dalton, so that's who they got.

Mike Brown gets a lot of stuff dumped on him due to perception.... mainly because he just allows it to happen and doesn't do interviews. It is what it is.

Mike Brown gets a lot of stuff dumped on him due to his record as a GM.  

192-284-4 and 0-7 in the playoffs.

As they say you are what your record says you are.  

Maybe Mike Brown wanted to draft Drew Brees, and Kapernick, but he hired Dave Shula, Dick Lebaeu, Bruce Coslett, and he got lucky when he hired Marvin Lewis, even though that was at the suggestion of Katie and Troy.  

He's lucky he's isn't catching blame for the Dave Shula protégée hiring in Zac Taylor. 

You can only hide so long w/o talking to the media and giving interviews because they want to know why you run your fathers franchise into the ground.    

[XenoMorph]

(05-12-2021, 08:12 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Says who, because no one I have heard?

saw a few sites that had him listed late 3rd early 4th rounder  (carman)  when looking at OTs...  

Projected Draft status doesnt mean much though   its just a projection/prediction  based on team(s) needs and player abilities.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-11-2021, 09:46 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Ogbuehi was demoted after playing LT . . . during college. That’s not a good indicator for NFL success. I would consider that a huge red flag. I don’t care about “elite” measurables when their play doesn’t match. And Fisher under performed prior to his heart condition and it didn’t affect his blocking proficiency. Yet, Alexander was still claiming they would be good players after he was hired by the Cowboys. That’s just a complete refusal to acknowledge the reality of the situation. And even more reason not to listen to him.

Did he?
I thought he started his college career at OG, then played RT, then moved to LT his final year?
I know he wasn't great at LT his final year, but he tore his ACL toward the end of that year.
Regardless, he was drafted because of his elite length and athleticism.
Alexander thought he could mold him into a good NFL OT with a year or two of development.

Ogbuehi's best position in college was OG. Perhaps that's where he should have played to have the best chance of success.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-12-2021, 11:48 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Did he?
I thought he started his college career at OG, then played RT, then moved to LT his final year?
I know he wasn't great at LT his final year, but he tore his ACL toward the end of that year.
Regardless, he was drafted because of his elite length and athleticism.
Alexander thought he could mold him into a good NFL OT with a year or two of development.

Ogbuehi's best position in college was OG. Perhaps that's where he should have played to have the best chance of success.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cincyjungle.com/platform/amp/2017/7/14/15787672/bengals-roster-breakdown-cedric-ogbuehi

Quote: In his final season for the Aggies he moved to left tackle, and promptly surrendered seven sacks in 13 games, which placed him as one of the worst at giving up sacks among drafted tackles in 2015, and worst in the SEC. He was even demoted from left tackle for a brief spell in that final year at College Station.

I’m sure there are other sources as well. But, if a player can’t handle LT in college it’s doubtful they will handle it in the NFL. Alexander was able to convince himself to ignore the warning signs. Probably why I wouldn’t want him consulting on future draft picks.

[Bengalholic]

If you watch Lapham's 'In the Trenches' episode with Chris Simms prior to the draft, the very first name they talk about as o-line options at 38 - if the Bengals went Chase at 5 - was Jackson Carman.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-12-2021, 12:23 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Why do you give PA ZERO credit for the O linemen drafted who turned out to be excellent players, or guys who came in and turned their careers around..... and just want to focus on 1 or 2 failed guys?

You are looking at 2 exceptions as if they were the rule over a 23 year career. It's idiotic, illogical, crybaby talk.

The double standard train continues to roll on through Bengaldom. Pissandmoan.com must be writing a lot of articles for you guys to read lately.

I suggest you go over and try to do some personal improvement reading at Quitsayingdumbstuff.com or Whotodrawlogicalconclusions.com instead.

Two exceptions? LMFAO.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/83758492

Quote: But I don’t care what anyone else says I think Bodine is a hell of a player.

Meanwhile, you’re telling others to stop crying while simultaneously crying about other’s opinions on a freakin’ message board where people discuss their opinions.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-12-2021, 01:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Two exceptions?  LMFAO.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/83758492


Meanwhile, you’re telling others to stop crying while simultaneously crying about other’s opinions on a freakin’ message board where people discuss their opinions.

Alexander seemed to take more gambles toward the end of his time with the Bengals.
His last three big OL (Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine) were misses.
While he probably would never admit it, the perception was he based his evaluations on length and athleticism for Ogbuehi and Fisher, and off the bench press for Bodine.
One would assume his thought was that Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine had the desired traits that he wanted in his starting OL, but they might not be all the way there yet. As such, he probably thought he could coach them into great players.
Could have been his ego after having success with guys like Levi Jones, Andrew Whitworth, Andre Smith, and Clint Boling.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-11-2021, 11:08 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Especially since he should’ve had a 4th round grade.  And the same question goes back to all the chase fans.  What happens when terrace Marshall becomes a solid pro and penei Sewell is a hall of famer

Eh, no, I had Carman as a late 2nd early 3rd round grade and we got him with a couple 4th round picks that could turn 
out to be studs. Carman played against higher competition than Radunz who a lot had a 2nd round grade on etc.

The Draft is a crapshoot man. Watch Jackson Carman become the best O-lineman in this class. It is entirely possible with
the move to Guard to hide his weakness with speed rushers.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-11-2021, 11:08 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Especially since he should’ve had a 4th round grade.  And the same question goes back to all the chase fans.  What happens when terrace Marshall becomes a solid pro and penei Sewell is a hall of famer

Most people had Carman as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder.

NFL.com had Carman as their 86th prospect.
TDN had Carman as their 69th prospect.
CBS Sports had Carman as their 51st prospect.
PFN had Carman as their 80th prospect.

Carman may have lasted to 69, but very likely wouldn't have lasted to 111.
Given the Bengals got Ossai later than he was expected to go, it's less of a reach if you think of the Bengals taking Ossai at 46 and Carman at 69.

[CJD]

For those curious, it's a lot harder to find draft data from the early 2000s, but there are still a few active files on Andrew Whitworth, who was a player we drafted who played tackle in college and we put at guard at the beginning of his career.

We chose him with the 55th pick in the 2nd round.

His draft profiles are as follows:

Quote:Whitworth started all 13 games at left tackle as a redshirt freshman in 2002, when he graded out at nearly 90-percent in each game. He started all 14 games at left tackle as a sophomore in 2003 and started all 12 games at left tackle as a junior in 2004, when he led his team in snaps from scrimmage (793), allowed only one sack and was whistled for just five penalties all season. As a senior in 2005, he remained a fulltime starter at left tackle. Whitworth finished his career at LSU with 52 career starts. Whitworth has a massive frame and has developed into a mauler in the running game. He shows the size to engulf defenders at the point of attack and he has good overall technique. He will give a great effort and will bring a lot of intelligence and durability to the table. However, Whitworth is not a great athlete and he does not possess explosive qualities. In fact, he's a bit of an overachiever. He lacks great range as a run blocker and he will struggle versus elite edge rushers in the NFL. He played his entire collegiate career at left tackle but is clearly a better fit at the right tackle position in the NFL. Whitworth projects as a second or third round prospect in the 2006 class.

http://insider.espn.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/9218

Quote:9. Andrew Whitworth, LSU (6-7; 5.18)

He had a complete workout at the Combine. He clocked 5.16 and 5.20 in the 40, 4.83 in the short shuttle, and 7.47 in the three-cone drill. He had a 30½-inch vertical jump, a 9-foot-4 broad jump and did 38 lifts. His arm length measures 35 inches (left-handed). Plays offensive line and also plays basketball at a high level; golf and tennis, too. He redshirted in 2001 and then started the next 52 games at left tackle (a school record). He's a great character person. He has long arms and big hands (10 1/8 inches). Very good worker both on and off the field. Good competitor and is athletic, but not sure he is quick enough to play left tackle in the NFL. His best position is most likely at right tackle. He'll play a long time for a team.

https://www.packers.com/news/gil-brandt-s-analysis-by-position-offensive-line-2451271

8th overall OT
https://www.fantasysharks.com/2006-nfl-draft-prospects-by-position/

Quote:#8 OT, Projected Round 3

http://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=17131&DraftYear=2006

So he was considered in the latter half of the top 10 OT prospects, was given a range of 2nd to 3rd round by most everyone here and he turned into one of the best LTs we've ever had.

And the guy who scouted and drafted him, Paul Alexander, thinks Carman can do the same thing Whitworth did.

I say give him a chance. No need to shit on the guy before he even plays a snap for us.

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-12-2021, 03:25 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: For those curious, it's a lot harder to find draft data from the early 2000s, but there are still a few active files on Andrew Whitworth, who was a player we drafted who played tackle in college and we put at guard at the beginning of his career.

We chose him with the 55th pick in the 2nd round.

His draft profiles are as follows:
http://insider.espn.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/9218

https://www.packers.com/news/gil-brandt-s-analysis-by-position-offensive-line-2451271

8th overall OT
https://www.fantasysharks.com/2006-nfl-draft-prospects-by-position/

http://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=17131&DraftYear=2006

So he was considered in the latter half of the top 10 OT prospects, was given a range of 2nd to 3rd round by most everyone here and he turned into one of the best LTs we've ever had.

And the guy who scouted and drafted him, Paul Alexander, thinks Carman can do the same thing Whitworth did.

I say give him a chance. No need to shit on the guy before he even plays a snap for us.

So Alexander hit on 1 pick in 15+ years and suddenly the guy is a genius?

[CJD]

(05-12-2021, 03:31 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: So Alexander hit on 1 pick in 15+ years and suddenly the guy is a genius?

Well him, and Zeitler, Boling, Smith, Collins, Andrews, Steinbach and a few UDFAs like Kyle Cook.
He wasn't the coach when Levi Jones was drafted, but he was there for the majority of his development...

We had a very good Oline for a while during his tenure with the team. Not sure why he has to either be a "genius" or an idiot. Just saying it's super easy to say "Carman was being drafted in the THIRD round in all the PFF mock draft simulators I did, so he's obviously trash and we're doomed!"

Seems like a silly take before the man even takes an NFL snap.

[PDub80]

(05-12-2021, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Most people had Carman as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder.

NFL.com had Carman as their 86th prospect.
TDN had Carman as their 69th prospect.
CBS Sports had Carman as their 51st prospect.
PFN had Carman as their 80th prospect.

Carman may have lasted to 69, but very likely wouldn't have lasted to 111.
Given the Bengals got Ossai later than he was expected to go, it's less of a reach if you think of the Bengals taking Ossai at 46 and Carman at 69.

Fun fact: In late Feb, PFN hadBengals 4th round pick, Deonte Smith rated as a 2nd rounder and the 64th best player in the draft... And the 3rd best Guard (which is where they projected him to).

I think Smith was a STEAL, as I do the kid from UGA. Draft rankings change for various reasons throughout the draft process. Carman played the last 5 games of last year with a herniated disk and couldn't workout at prodays and his tape from this year suffered, once dissected.

^ That doesn't mean he isn't a great prospect (once fully healed). His surgery wasn't anything super major and he has been practicing and doing drills for weeks.

Carman could have (justifiably) packed it in once injured, but didn't and his stock fell some. He should be commended as a player and a teammate.