Carman At Guard- Consulted Willie Anderson

[Bengalholic]

(05-12-2021, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Most people had Carman as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder.

NFL.com had Carman as their 86th prospect.
TDN had Carman as their 69th prospect.
CBS Sports had Carman as their 51st prospect.
PFN had Carman as their 80th prospect.

Carman may have lasted to 69, but very likely wouldn't have lasted to 111.
Given the Bengals got Ossai later than he was expected to go, it's less of a reach if you think of the Bengals taking Ossai at 46 and Carman at 69.

Yeah, PFF also had him at 48...and SI's Draft Bible made this statement / prediction in March -

'Jackson Carman is a top-32 talent and should be selected earlier than people expect. Players like Jalen Mayfield, Liam Eichenberg, Dillon Radunz and Alex Leatherwood are all talked about in the same tier as him, but Carman’s tape is a lot better than all of them. He checks the experience box, has the versatility to play guard or tackle and still has room to grow, which will be scary for NFL defensive ends. The media is sleeping on Carman. Once he shows he is healthy, Carman will start moving up draft boards. How high does he move up? As noted, Carman is a top-32 talent, and it wouldn’t be shocking to see him go in the back half of the first round or early in the second. He is that talented and will be a difference-maker early in his career.'

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-12-2021, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Most people had Carman as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder.

NFL.com had Carman as their 86th prospect.
TDN had Carman as their 69th prospect.
CBS Sports had Carman as their 51st prospect.
PFN had Carman as their 80th prospect.

Carman may have lasted to 69, but very likely wouldn't have lasted to 111.
Given the Bengals got Ossai later than he was expected to go, it's less of a reach if you think of the Bengals taking Ossai at 46 and Carman at 69.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-12-2021, 03:40 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Fun fact: In late Feb, PFN hadBengals 4th round pick, Deonte Smith rated as a 2nd rounder and the 64th best player in the draft... And the 3rd best Guard (which is where they projected him to).

I think Smith was a STEAL, as I do the kid from UGA. Draft rankings change for various reasons throughout the draft process. Carman played the last 5 games of last year with a herniated disk and couldn't workout at prodays and his tape from this year suffered, once dissected.

^ That doesn't mean he isn't a great prospect (once fully healed). His surgery wasn't anything super major and he has been practicing and doing drills for weeks.

Carman could have (justifiably) packed it in once injured, but didn't and his stock fell some. He should be commended as a player and a teammate.

Threw me off for a second with your spelling of D'Ante Smith's name but yeah, I think both him and Trey Hill were steals.

More than likely if you have seen bad film from Carman it is when he was playing with the herniated disc. He could of shut it 
down as you say here, but he played for his team and his QB, not for an NFL paycheck. He could of very well went in the first
round if he just kept the great tape out there.

[CJD]

(05-12-2021, 04:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Threw me off for a second with your spelling of D'Ante Smith's name but yeah, I think both him and Trey Hill were steals.

More than likely if you have seen bad film from Carman it is when he was playing with the herniated disc. He could of shut it 
down as you say here, but he played for his for his team and his QB, not for an NFL paycheck. He could of very well went in 
the first round if he just kept the great tape out there.

I am hesitant to expect much from them because, every year or so we find a way to nab a guy who fell down boards for no reason, only for there to be a pretty legitimate reason.

Guys like Rodney Anderson, Malik Jefferson, Josh Malone, Andrew Billings, Paul Dawson, Derron Smith, Reid Fragel and Brandon Thompson.

Every year our "biggest steal" in the late 3rd round or on day 3 ends up just being another nobody who fell for a reason that the teams knew but we didn't.

Not saying this is definitely what's going to happen with these two, but I'm going in expecting absolutely nothing. That way, if they do anything at all it will feel like a bonus .

[*Synric*]

(05-12-2021, 03:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Most people had Carman as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder.

NFL.com had Carman as their 86th prospect.
TDN had Carman as their 69th prospect.
CBS Sports had Carman as their 51st prospect.
PFN had Carman as their 80th prospect.

Carman may have lasted to 69, but very likely wouldn't have lasted to 111.
Given the Bengals got Ossai later than he was expected to go, it's less of a reach if you think of the Bengals taking Ossai at 46 and Carman at 69.

(05-12-2021, 03:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, PFF also had him at 48...and SI's Draft Bible made this statement / prediction in March -

'Jackson Carman is a top-32 talent and should be selected earlier than people expect. Players like Jalen Mayfield, Liam Eichenberg, Dillon Radunz and Alex Leatherwood are all talked about in the same tier as him, but Carman’s tape is a lot better than all of them. He checks the experience box, has the versatility to play guard or tackle and still has room to grow, which will be scary for NFL defensive ends. The media is sleeping on Carman. Once he shows he is healthy, Carman will start moving up draft boards. How high does he move up? As noted, Carman is a top-32 talent, and it wouldn’t be shocking to see him go in the back half of the first round or early in the second. He is that talented and will be a difference-maker early in his career.'

Jackson Carman started getting those 3rd round grades when he wasnt able to work out at Clemson Pro Day and his sub-33inch arm measurement on that same day. When Carman had his April 15 workout you started seeing more second round talk. 

[Joelist]

Carman only got a couple of thirds and yes when you check the dates they predate the private workout - after that he consistently got second round or even a couple of first round grades (like Walter of all people).

[*bfine32*]

If someone would have come up to you after RD 1 and said:

You can have Jackson Carman in RD2 or Wyatt Davis in RD 3; which way you going?

[MTBengalsFan]

(05-12-2021, 08:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If someone would have come up to you after RD 1 and said:

You can have Jackson Carman in RD2 or Wyatt Davis in RD 3; which way you going?

Given how OSU linemen have "performed" for the Bengals, give me Jackson!

[OSUfan]

(05-12-2021, 03:31 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: So Alexander hit on 1 pick in 15+ years and suddenly the guy is a genius?

While I am not an Alexander fan he is respected throughout the league and your assessment is not completely accurate.

1996 - Willie Anderson
1998 - Mike Goff (played in the league until 2009)
2002 - Levi Jones
2003 - Eric Steinbach
2004 - Stacy Andrews (played in the league until 2011)
2006 - Andrew Whitworth
2008 - Anthony Collins (played in the league until 2014)
2009 - Andre Smith (still in the league)
2011 - Clint Boling
2012 - Kevin Zeitler
2014 - Russell Bodine ( in the league until 2020)

Pretty respectable list of players he was involved in evaluating.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-12-2021, 05:09 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I am hesitant to expect much from them because, every year or so we find a way to nab a guy who fell down boards for no reason, only for there to be a pretty legitimate reason.

Guys like Rodney Anderson, Malik Jefferson, Josh Malone, Andrew Billings, Paul Dawson, Derron Smith, Reid Fragel and Brandon Thompson.

Every year our "biggest steal" in the late 3rd round or on day 3 ends up just being another nobody who fell for a reason that the teams knew but we didn't.

Not saying this is definitely what's going to happen with these two, but I'm going in expecting absolutely nothing. That way, if they do anything at all it will feel like a bonus .

I guess I understand that, but we have also had players like Geno, Bates, Dunlap, MLJ, Sanu, Hubbard and recently Tee Higgins
and Logan Wilson. We had a terrible run as of late with somewhat early Draft picks, especially first rounders. Chase actually might
worry me the most just being a first round pick and this is even without an injury history lol

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-12-2021, 08:58 PM)MTBengalsFan Wrote: Given how OSU linemen have "performed" for the Bengals, give me Jackson!

And I get a couple 4th's? Easy I take Jackson Carman over Wyatt Davis without Ossai in the 3rd...

[*ochocincos*]

(05-12-2021, 09:29 PM)OSUfan Wrote: While I am not an Alexander fan he is respected throughout the league and your assessment is not completely accurate.

1996 - Willie Anderson
1998 - Mike Goff (played in the league until 2009)
2002 - Levi Jones
2003 - Eric Steinbach
2004 - Stacy Andrews (played in the league until 2011)
2006 - Andrew Whitworth
2008 - Anthony Collins (played in the league until 2014)
2009 - Andre Smith (still in the league)
2011 - Clint Boling
2012 - Kevin Zeitler
2014 - Russell Bodine ( in the league until 2020)

Pretty respectable list of players he was involved in evaluating.

Bodine was not really a hit.
He was below average in CIN, only got a 2-year $5 mill contract with BUF, and only played 10 games with them before not playing again.

Anthony Collins was someone who was a good swing OT with CIN, but when he went to TB, he got big money and severely disappointed. Like Bodine, he played just 10 games in TB, never playing again after that.

[Whatever]

(05-14-2021, 03:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bodine was not really a hit.
He was below average in CIN, only got a 2-year $5 mill contract with BUF, and only played 10 games with them before not playing again.

Anthony Collins was someone who was a good swing OT with CIN, but when he went to TB, he got big money and severely disappointed. Like Bodine, he played just 10 games in TB, never playing again after that.

Bodine has graded out in the 60's by PFF every year he's played.  

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-12-2021, 09:29 PM)OSUfan Wrote: While I am not an Alexander fan he is respected throughout the league and your assessment is not completely accurate.

1996 - Willie Anderson
1998 - Mike Goff (played in the league until 2009)
2002 - Levi Jones
2003 - Eric Steinbach
2004 - Stacy Andrews (played in the league until 2011)
2006 - Andrew Whitworth
2008 - Anthony Collins (played in the league until 2014)
2009 - Andre Smith (still in the league)
2011 - Clint Boling
2012 - Kevin Zeitler
2014 - Russell Bodine ( in the league until 2020)

Pretty respectable list of players he was involved in evaluating.

Some of those were horrible picks we should have taken David DeCastro instead of Kevin Zeitler.  That was a stupid trade down because then that allowed the Steelers to draft him.  I wouldn't doubt that Alexander graded Zeitler higher which is why the Bengals traded down. Everyone else seemed to think DeCastro was a generational type Guard.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-14-2021, 03:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bodine has graded out in the 60's by PFF every year he's played.  

Which is just meh. But when you looked back at where he landed amongst the other C's, he was consistently in the 20's.

[Joelist]

(05-14-2021, 03:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bodine has graded out in the 60's by PFF every year he's played.  

Bodine was one case that convinced me PFF is not gospel for linemen. Watching him constantly block the wrong guy and constantly allowing defenders up the gut unblocked and them giving him 60s was comical. 

[XenoMorph]

(05-14-2021, 03:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Which is just meh. But when you looked back at where he landed amongst the other C's, he was consistently in the 20's.

Centers gotta be Smart.... 

[*ochocincos*]

(05-14-2021, 04:49 PM)Joelist Wrote: Bodine was one case that convinced me PFF is not gospel for linemen. Watching him constantly block the wrong guy and constantly allowing defenders up the gut unblocked and them giving him 60s was comical. 

60's isn't considered good by PFF though.
It's just considered low-end starter, which is what Bodine was.
Anyone in the 50's needs replaced immediately.
Replace anyone in the 60's once you don't have anyone in the 50's.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2021, 04:01 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I see the issue here. You're not a smart person. Couple that with the cry baby mentality and that = irrational thoughts.

Did I respond/quote you about your initial post about scouts? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I didn't. I wouldn't, because I understand the criticism to a degree.

At this point, you're stawmanning the discussion because I used your short slighted post about PA not being able to evaluate talent as toilet paper. Get over it. I know for a cry baby it's tough, but you're just going to have to try (NOT CRY) harder.

So did the Bengals get rid of Alexander because they were tired of the constant stream of hits and big successes?

[Shake n Blake]

Attack the point with valid counterpoints, not insults, veiled or otherwise.

If that's too much to ask, see yourself out of the thread.