Carman At Guard- Consulted Willie Anderson

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2021, 03:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bodine was not really a hit.
He was below average in CIN, only got a 2-year $5 mill contract with BUF, and only played 10 games with them before not playing again.

Anthony Collins was someone who was a good swing OT with CIN, but when he went to TB, he got big money and severely disappointed. Like Bodine, he played just 10 games in TB, never playing again after that.

Same with Stacy Andrews. He was never deserving of the franchise tag or even a starting position. When the Eagles signed him to play guard he was just as bad as he was at tackle benching him after two games and trading him after one season into a six year deal for a 7th round draft pick.

[PDub80]

(05-14-2021, 10:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So did the Bengals get rid of Alexander because they were tired of the constant stream of hits and big successes?

Who knows why the Bengals got rid if Paul Alexander after 24 years. I would imagine multiple reasons. None of which involved his just forgetting how to evaluate NFL talent..... which wasn't his primary job. Back on topic (without hurting feelings as best I can! Apologies to all!)



PA evaluated the guys that the scouting department passed and put in front of him. As a coach, he's not out there going through years worth of college tape and flying to a bunch of college games to evaluate guys. He typically got 1 or 2 limited workouts and some interviews and sometimes not even that, unless he was doing the Senior Bowl.


This idea that he got every prospect he wanted and none he didn't is a fairy tale. Even the head coach got trumped by Scouts, Tobin, &/or Mike Brown. The Ross pick is a great example of that. PA was not running the Bengals drafts.


Now that he is just doing consulting he is able to do a lot more and for a lot longer with prospects. He worked out Carman 10+ times. He ranked him as a 1st round talent among this group of linemen and he worked out some really great players. 25 of them. That shouldn't be some kiss of death given OA's 24 year career where he coached and developed some outstanding O lines.

(05-17-2021, 08:01 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Same with Stacy Andrews. He was never deserving of the franchise tag or even a starting position. When the Eagles signed him to play guard he was just as bad as he was at tackle benching him after two games and trading him after one season into a six year deal for a 7th round draft pick.

The Bengals had a horrible string of poor franchise tag uses, and Andrews would certainly be 1 of them.

Look, the players have a talent level and, after that, it's mostly on them to maximize it. Some do, some don't.  Andrews was just in it for the money, clearly. He stopped efforting and developing after he got paid.... by 2 different teams.

This coaching staff clearly put a huge emphasis on finding guys who love to play football. Carman, for example, played his last 5 games with an injury when he could have shut it down. This ended up HURTING his draft stock vs not playing.

To continue to hate on the kid for any and every reason makes little sense.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-17-2021, 08:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Who knows why the Bengals got rid if Paul Alexander after 24 years. I would imagine multiple reasons. None of which involved his just forgetting how to evaluate NFL talent..... which wasn't his primary job. Back on topic (without hurting feelings as best I can! Apologies to all!)

It’s probably confusing during the Mike Brown tenure because he holds onto coaches much longer than he should, but coaches are usually let go due to performance. Poor performance, more specifically. Take the 2018 Dallas Cowboys for instance. Before the bye week, their record was 3-4. After the bye week, they went 7-2. The difference? They fired their new offensive line coach during the bye. His name was Paul Alexander. Since then he hasn’t worked in the NFL again. Because everyone knows “NFL” stands for “not for long” except when Mike Brown hires you. Both Shula and Coslet had to resign because Mike literally wouldn’t fire them despite how bad they were. It only took Dallas seven weeks to learn what it took Mike Brown 24seasons to figure out. (If Shula hadn’t resigned he still might be the HC because according to Mike, Shula did everything he asked him to do.)

Quote:PA evaluated the guys that the scouting department passed and put in front of him. As a coach, he's not out there going through years worth of college tape and flying to a bunch of college games to evaluate guys. He typically got 1 or 2 limited workouts and some interviews and sometimes not even that, unless he was doing the Senior Bowl.

So some years Alexander had less than one limited workout? Sounds like a really good argument for adding more scouts to the staff which WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT to which people took exception.

Quote:This idea that he got every prospect he wanted and none he didn't is a fairy tale. Even the head coach got trumped by Scouts, Tobin, &/or Mike Brown. The Ross pick is a great example of that. PA was not running the Bengals drafts.

So if the Bengals ignored his draft input when he worked for them, why would they listen now?

List one offensive lineman the Bengals drafted which Alexander didn’t want.

Quote:Now that he is just doing consulting he is able to do a lot more and for a lot longer with prospects. He worked out Carman 10+ times. He ranked him as a 1st round talent among this group of linemen and he worked out some really great players. 25 of them. That shouldn't be some kiss of death given OA's 24 year career where he coached and developed some outstanding O lines.

Now that Carman is paying Paul Alexander to work with him, Alexander has more time to work with Carman? Wow, that’s shocking. Twenty five clients and if you look at his Twitter all 25 are exceptionally talented and draft steals. It’s almost as if he is paid by his clients to say good things about them . . . which, of course, he is. And Alexander does say nice things about his clients because . . . wait for it . . . they’re paying him.

Quote:The Bengals had a horrible string of poor franchise tag uses, and Andrews would certainly be 1 of them.

I guess it’s just another one of those offensive line personnel decisions the offensive line coach mysteriously had no input into making.

Quote:Look, the players have a talent level and, after that, it's mostly on them to maximize it. Some do, some don't.  Andrews was just in it for the money, clearly. He stopped efforting and developing after he got paid.... by 2 different teams.

Yeah, it’s almost as if the ability to identify those players with the skill to play is at a premium. And a coach can only develop so much.

This is what I wrote that upset you:

(05-11-2021, 12:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: His firing was, in part, due to his inability to identify and develop talent outside of the first two rounds. And at the end of his tenure, he couldn’t even do that in the first two rounds.

You asked when was I going to give Alexander credit. I just did. After the second round, he sucks. If you disagree, data will change my mind. Produce a list of players he drafted after the second round who didn’t suck.

Which also means during the first two rounds, he didn’t suck. So there’s the credit for all rounds of the draft. You just weren’t able to hash that out on your own unless I spoon fed it to you.

But, according to you, Alexander isn’t responsible for the draft picks, so why should I give him credit for something you just argued he isn’t responsible for?

You also just argued the players have an inherent talent level and that’s about it. So if that’s true, why should I give credit to Alexander for developing an inherent talent?

You’re talking out both sides of you mouth. One the one side, I need to give Alexander credit for his draft picks and player development, but on the other Alexander isn’t responsible for the draft picks or the player development. Make up your mind.

Quote:This coaching staff clearly put a huge emphasis on finding guys who love to play football. Carman, for example, played his last 5 games with an injury when he could have shut it down. This ended up HURTING his draft stock vs not playing.

To continue to hate on the kid for any and every reason makes little sense.

Show me the quote where I hated on him or are you just “straw manning”?

[PDub80]

(05-17-2021, 11:22 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It’s probably confusing during the Mike Brown tenure because he holds onto coaches much longer than he should, but coaches are usually let go due to performance. Poor performance, more specifically. Take the 2018 Dallas Cowboys for instance. Before the bye week, their record was 3-4. After the bye week, they went 7-2. The difference? They fired their new offensive line coach during the bye. His name was Paul Alexander. Since then he hasn’t worked in the NFL again. Because everyone knows “NFL” stands for “not for long” except when Mike Brown hires you. Both Shula and Coslet had to resign because Mike literally wouldn’t fire them despite how bad they were. It only took Dallas seven weeks to learn what it took Mike Brown 24seasons to figure out. (If Shula hadn’t resigned he still might be the HC because according to Mike, Shula did everything he asked him to do.)


So some years Alexander had less than one limited workout? Sounds like a really good argument for adding more scouts to the staff which WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT to which people took exception.



So if the Bengals ignored his draft input when he worked for them, why would they listen now?

List one offensive lineman the Bengals drafted which Alexander didn’t want.



Now that Carman is paying Paul Alexander to work with him, Alexander has more time to work with Carman? Wow, that’s shocking. Twenty five clients and if you look at his Twitter all 25 are exceptionally talented and draft steals. It’s almost as if he is paid by his clients to say good things about them . . . which, of course, he is. And Alexander does say nice things about his clients because . . . wait for it . . . they’re paying him.



I guess it’s just another one of those offensive line personnel decisions the offensive line coach mysteriously had no input into making.


Yeah, it’s almost as if the ability to identify those players with the skill to play is at a premium. And a coach can only develop so much.

This is what I wrote that upset you:



You asked when was I going to give Alexander credit. I just did. After the second round, he sucks. If you disagree, data will change my mind. Produce a list of players he drafted after the second round who didn’t suck.

Which also means during the first two rounds, he didn’t suck. So there’s the credit for all rounds of the draft. You just weren’t able to hash that out on your own unless I spoon fed it to you.

But, according to you, Alexander isn’t responsible for the draft picks, so why should I give him credit for something you just argued he isn’t responsible for?

You also just argued the players have an inherent talent level and that’s about it. So if that’s true, why should I give credit to Alexander for developing an inherent talent?

You’re talking out both sides of you mouth. One the one side, I need to give Alexander credit for his draft picks and player development, but on the other Alexander isn’t responsible for the draft picks or the player development. Make up your mind.


Show me the quote where I hated on him or are you just “straw manning”?

To further the discussion (in order)...

- I have ZERO doubts that PA's coaching methods were probably outdated after such a long career. No question. This doesn't negate the fact that he can see and identify talent or do workouts to get a good idea as to what a guy is capable of. I feel like that's a fair statement.

The Cowboys also fired Pollack and hired Mike Mcarthy. I wouldn't point to a whole lot of what Dallas does lately as a beacon of excellence or great ideas. They have stunk recently, regardless of the o line coach. I could never see PA's personality fitting in with Jerry Jones. That would make for an awkward sitcom/buddy cop movie.

- I didn't see your original point about scouts, nor did I reply to it. I would agree that more scouts wouldn't hurt the Bengals. I did not take exception to your scout ideas.

- I'm not saying the ignored his input. This is a HUGE problem with people today: Why do you create a 100% THIS or THAT, BLACK or WHITE world when having discussions about complex subject where we don't have complete information?


- Listing players PA didn't want would require me to have been in discussions between PA, Tobin, Marvin, & Mike Brown. Obviously, I wasn't in those rooms. But, in the same vein as your question, lets do something logical instead and draw a conclusion from a real life event: Marvin Lewis , THE LONG TIME BENGALS HEAD COACH & Mike Brown friend, did NOT want Jon Ross. The Bengals selected him anyway and told him to deal with it and make it work. Tobin, Brown, Scouts, or whomever above Marvin selected a player THE HEAD COACH didn't want. 

^ Given the above fact of a real life example of hierarchy and coach influence within the Bengals organization, it shouldn't require any imagination whatsoever to think that a position coach would get players he didn't love or 100% endorse.

^ THAT fact being laid out there, no coach is 100% accurate on a prospect. Not in the history of the NFL has a coach or scout been 100% correct throughout a career when it comes to evaluating talent. To look at PA and hold him to that standard is absurd.

- You're right in the fact that PA is paid by agents to work players out. Guess what... EVERYONE YOU ARE EVERY GOING TO READ OR HEAR ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT NFL FOOTBALL IS PAID. Does that mean you ignore everyone's input? That's a very tin-foil-hat mantra.

- Again, we can discuss how much weight the O line coach has in making picks for the Bengals and what they do on draft day, but there's evidence all over the board proving and disproving how much. You are speculating negatively because it suits your predisposition towards the subject. Just like you saying PA is paid and, therefore, biased, you are negative, emotional, and upset at the pick and are.... THEREFORE BIASED.

- Now you're really moving the goal line around... Caraman was a second round pick... you admit that PA had good 1st & 2nd round players (in your fantasy world where PA makes the Bengals draft picks)... and then continue to complain about late round draft picks - which is off subject. How successful are any teams with late round O line draft picks?

This would require an enormous amount of comparative data showing Bengals draft tendencies, player selections by the Bengals, etc. to try and understand or piece the puzzle together. I understand your desire to simplistically look at things, but this stuff is not checkers... or Uno. The draft and it's machinations are complex.

- Again, and I'm starting to see your issue with PA... You think he ranthe Bengals drafts. No. I'm sure all of the coaches have input on the types of players they want and their opinions on guys. As evidanced by real life events, coaches don't always get their way and are overridden by Ownership, Tobin, and scouts.

^ Ok, I'll indulge you. We can play your game of imaginary and pretend. If, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, Paul Alexander was very good at selecting 1st and 2nd round players over his 24 year career with the Bengals... WHY TAKE EXCEPTION TO HIS SAYING CARMAN WAS A 1st OR 2nd ROUND TALENT?

- I don't understand your question or point here. Are you saying players do NOT have varying levels of talent and that coaches jobs are NOT to develop that talent? Please elaborate, because this seems like you're spiraling out of control at this point and just saying anything to be argumentative for the sake of being so.

- I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth. After reading your posts, you've given me a much better understanding of how you're thinking. You think it's a 2 sides thing. THIS or THAT. BLACK or WHITE. A or B. That isn't factual or based on any kind of reality. There should be ZERO question that PA had input on every Bengals O Line draft pick while he was in Cincinnati. How much input? We will never know unless he writes a book.... In which case, you'll just dismiss it as fiction because he made money from it. I like to read a lot... I'll let you know what he says in it.

^ 2 opposing ideas can be simultaneously true at the same time. The Bengals, with PA's input had some great draft picks and some not so great ones. PA developed some great players exactly how they needed and failed with some others.

^ NONE OF THOSE FACTS NEGATE WILLIE ANDERSON or PA's OPINION ON JACKSON CARMAN. We have to wait to see how that works out... like literally any other draft pick in the history of the NFL.

- I was speaking in generalities when I said "To continue to hate" meaning: I keep seeing it from Bengals fans.

[fredtoast]

(05-17-2021, 11:22 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You asked when was I going to give Alexander credit. I just did. After the second round, he sucks. If you disagree, data will change my mind. Produce a list of players he drafted after the second round who didn’t suck.

Mike Goff..... 154 starts in 12 year career

Clint Boling..... 111 starts in 8 year career

Anthony Collins.... Excellent swing tackle.  Consensus top 5 OT and top 50 overall free agent when he left the Bengals.

Kyle Cook....... Only allowed 4 sacks in first 48 starts.  After '11 season Pat Kirwan said he should have made the Pro Bowl.  Career cut short by injury in just 4th season as starter.

Rich Braham was not drafted by the Bengals, but he never played for another team.  If we give Alexander credit for draft picks then we should give him credit for free agents also....  142 starts in 12 years.

[PDub80]

(05-17-2021, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mike Goff..... 154 starts in 12 year career

Clint Boling..... 111 starts in 8 year career

Anthony Collins.... Excellent swing tackle.  Consensus top 5 OT and top 50 overall free agent when he left the Bengals.

Kyle Cook....... Only allowed 4 sacks in first 48 starts.  After '11 season Pat Kirwan said he should have made the Pro Bowl.  Career cut short by injury in just 4th season as starter.

Rich Braham was not drafted by the Bengals, but he never played for another team.  If we give Alexander credit for draft picks then we should give him credit for free agents also....  142 starts in 12 years.

I agree ^

Bobby Williams was considered a 2nd round failure in Phily. Comes to the Bengals and becomes an excellent RG. And PA gets nothing for developing Bobbie into a strong player?

[CoachGeorge]

Paul Alexander and Dallas.

PA was a very poor fit for what and who Dallas had. JJ brought in PA because of his reputation as a quality pass protection guru without realizing everything he teaches is not what Dallas had been using for years. In the prior year Prescott took far to many sacks and hits (mostly of his own making, but I digress)

1. PA teaches independent hands (outside high, inside low). Dallas uses the two hand punch. Dallas’ players whined incessantly about it, didn’t take to it in any way.

2. PA doesn’t use a traditional vertical set saying it is too passive. It is and plenty of successful coaches have gotten away from it, preferring the more aggressive ‘shorty’ set - Howard Mudd’s term. The thing is Dallas was full of athletic players who are right at home in that set. Bad fit.

3. PA was used to a rhythmic QB who stays in the pocket and delivers the ball out very quickly. That isn’t Dak’s game. At all. So the sacks and hits went up not down. Credit JJ for listening to someone who knew better and go back to what his players liked and were comfortable in.

Now that the o-line is older and more susceptible to injury, PA’s methods would serve this version of Dallas much better, but that ship has soared.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(05-12-2021, 05:09 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I am hesitant to expect much from them because, every year or so we find a way to nab a guy who fell down boards for no reason, only for there to be a pretty legitimate reason.

Guys like Rodney Anderson, Malik Jefferson, Josh Malone, Andrew Billings, Paul Dawson, Derron Smith, Reid Fragel and Brandon Thompson.

Every year our "biggest steal" in the late 3rd round or on day 3 ends up just being another nobody who fell for a reason that the teams knew but we didn't.

Not saying this is definitely what's going to happen with these two, but I'm going in expecting absolutely nothing. That way, if they do anything at all it will feel like a bonus .

The last one who felt like a steal in recent year was Carl Lawson. Some mocks had him going in the first and I really wanted him in the 2nd round and we got him in the 4th.

Hubbard was slated as a late first, but more likely 2nd round guy we got in the third - and he's basically Michael Johnson.

So it's not right to say they all busted. Billings maybe wasn't a star but was solid. Derron Smith was good for where we got him. Rodney Anderson was a knowing roll of the dice and I'd take that gamble every time in the 6th. Dawson and Jefferson looked bad picks at the time all athleticism and no instincts. Malone had upside but was no sure thing (aka a 3rd round pick)

(05-12-2021, 09:29 PM)OSUfan Wrote: While I am not an Alexander fan he is respected throughout the league and your assessment is not completely accurate.

1996 - Willie Anderson
1998 - Mike Goff (played in the league until 2009)
2002 - Levi Jones
2003 - Eric Steinbach
2004 - Stacy Andrews (played in the league until 2011)
2006 - Andrew Whitworth
2008 - Anthony Collins (played in the league until 2014)
2009 - Andre Smith (still in the league)
2011 - Clint Boling
2012 - Kevin Zeitler
2014 - Russell Bodine ( in the league until 2020)

Pretty respectable list of players he was involved in evaluating.

The one that stands out for me is Levi Jones. The Bengals took some serious heat for that pick at the time but history vindicates Alexander as he was a franchise tackle.

[EatonFan]

2020 Draft -- Burrow, LSU and Tee Higgins, Clemson

2021 Draft -- Ja' Marr Chase, LSU and Jackson Carmen, Clemson

2022 Draft.... Derek Stingley Jr?, LSU and Xavier Thomas?, Clemson


Hmmm.... I'm beginning to see a pattern.

[Sled21]

(05-18-2021, 11:20 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: The last one who felt like a steal in recent year was Carl Lawson. Some mocks had him going in the first and I really wanted him in the 2nd round and we got him in the 4th.

Hubbard was slated as a late first, but more likely 2nd round guy we got in the third - and he's basically Michael Johnson.

So it's not right to say they all busted. Billings maybe wasn't a star but was solid. Derron Smith was good for where we got him. Rodney Anderson was a knowing roll of the dice and I'd take that gamble every time in the 6th. Dawson and Jefferson looked bad picks at the time all athleticism and no instincts. Malone had upside but was no sure thing (aka a 3rd round pick)


The one that stands out for me is Levi Jones. The Bengals took some serious heat for that pick at the time but history vindicates Alexander as he was a franchise tackle.

I think Paul Alexander was a very good line coach for a very long time, but the game passed him by and he didn't keep up with it. 

[XenoMorph]

(05-19-2021, 08:53 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I think Paul Alexander was a very good line coach for a very long time, but the game passed him by and he didn't keep up with it. 

we also stopped supplying him with talent.. I mean we gave him Stacy Andrews and expected magic

[XenoMorph]

(05-18-2021, 02:49 PM)EatonFan Wrote: 2020 Draft -- Burrow, LSU  and Tee Higgins, Clemson

2021 Draft -- Ja' Marr Chase, LSU and Jackson Carmen, Clemson

2022 Draft.... Derek Stingley Jr?, LSU and Xavier Thomas?, Clemson


Hmmm.... I'm beginning to see a pattern.

lol just scout schools with similar mascots lol..  The DT in 2021 is also from LSU  a nd the TE we signed and etc..etc..

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-17-2021, 03:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: To further the discussion (in order)...

- I have ZERO doubts that PA's coaching methods were probably outdated after such a long career. No question. This doesn't negate the fact that he can see and identify talent or do workouts to get a good idea as to what a guy is capable of. I feel like that's a fair statement.

The Cowboys also fired Pollack and hired Mike Mcarthy. I wouldn't point to a whole lot of what Dallas does lately as a beacon of excellence or great ideas. They have stunk recently, regardless of the o line coach. I could never see PA's personality fitting in with Jerry Jones. That would make for an awkward sitcom/buddy cop movie.

- I didn't see your original point about scouts, nor did I reply to it. I would agree that more scouts wouldn't hurt the Bengals. I did not take exception to your scout ideas.

- I'm not saying the ignored his input. This is a HUGE problem with people today: Why do you create a 100% THIS or THAT, BLACK or WHITE world when having discussions about complex subject where we don't have complete information?


- Listing players PA didn't want would require me to have been in discussions between PA, Tobin, Marvin, & Mike Brown. Obviously, I wasn't in those rooms. But, in the same vein as your question, lets do something logical instead and draw a conclusion from a real life event: Marvin Lewis , THE LONG TIME BENGALS HEAD COACH & Mike Brown friend, did NOT want Jon Ross. The Bengals selected him anyway and told him to deal with it and make it work. Tobin, Brown, Scouts, or whomever above Marvin selected a player THE HEAD COACH didn't want. 

^ Given the above fact of a real life example of hierarchy and coach influence within the Bengals organization, it shouldn't require any imagination whatsoever to think that a position coach would get players he didn't love or 100% endorse.

^ THAT fact being laid out there, no coach is 100% accurate on a prospect. Not in the history of the NFL has a coach or scout been 100% correct throughout a career when it comes to evaluating talent. To look at PA and hold him to that standard is absurd.

- You're right in the fact that PA is paid by agents to work players out. Guess what... EVERYONE YOU ARE EVERY GOING TO READ OR HEAR ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT NFL FOOTBALL IS PAID. Does that mean you ignore everyone's input? That's a very tin-foil-hat mantra.

- Again, we can discuss how much weight the O line coach has in making picks for the Bengals and what they do on draft day, but there's evidence all over the board proving and disproving how much. You are speculating negatively because it suits your predisposition towards the subject. Just like you saying PA is paid and, therefore, biased, you are negative, emotional, and upset at the pick and are.... THEREFORE BIASED.

- Now you're really moving the goal line around... Caraman was a second round pick... you admit that PA had good 1st & 2nd round players (in your fantasy world where PA makes the Bengals draft picks)... and then continue to complain about late round draft picks - which is off subject. How successful are any teams with late round O line draft picks?

This would require an enormous amount of comparative data showing Bengals draft tendencies, player selections by the Bengals, etc. to try and understand or piece the puzzle together. I understand your desire to simplistically look at things, but this stuff is not checkers... or Uno. The draft and it's machinations are complex.

- Again, and I'm starting to see your issue with PA... You think he ranthe Bengals drafts. No. I'm sure all of the coaches have input on the types of players they want and their opinions on guys. As evidanced by real life events, coaches don't always get their way and are overridden by Ownership, Tobin, and scouts.

^ Ok, I'll indulge you. We can play your game of imaginary and pretend. If, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, Paul Alexander was very good at selecting 1st and 2nd round players over his 24 year career with the Bengals... WHY TAKE EXCEPTION TO HIS SAYING CARMAN WAS A 1st OR 2nd ROUND TALENT?

- I don't understand your question or point here. Are you saying players do NOT have varying levels of talent and that coaches jobs are NOT to develop that talent? Please elaborate, because this seems like you're spiraling out of control at this point and just saying anything to be argumentative for the sake of being so.

- I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth. After reading your posts, you've given me a much better understanding of how you're thinking. You think it's a 2 sides thing. THIS or THAT. BLACK or WHITE. A or B. That isn't factual or based on any kind of reality. There should be ZERO question that PA had input on every Bengals O Line draft pick while he was in Cincinnati. How much input? We will never know unless he writes a book.... In which case, you'll just dismiss it as fiction because he made money from it. I like to read a lot... I'll let you know what he says in it.

^ 2 opposing ideas can be simultaneously true at the same time. The Bengals, with PA's input had some great draft picks and some not so great ones. PA developed some great players exactly how they needed and failed with some others.

^ NONE OF THOSE FACTS NEGATE WILLIE ANDERSON or PA's OPINION ON JACKSON CARMAN. We have to wait to see how that works out... like literally any other draft pick in the history of the NFL.

- I was speaking in generalities when I said "To continue to hate" meaning: I keep seeing it from Bengals fans.

Did the Bengals ever confirm Marvin didn’t want Ross or is that an unsubstantiated media rumor?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-17-2021, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mike Goff..... 154 starts in 12 year career

Clint Boling..... 111 starts in 8 year career

Anthony Collins.... Excellent swing tackle.  Consensus top 5 OT and top 50 overall free agent when he left the Bengals.

Kyle Cook....... Only allowed 4 sacks in first 48 starts.  After '11 season Pat Kirwan said he should have made the Pro Bowl.  Career cut short by injury in just 4th season as starter.

Rich Braham was not drafted by the Bengals, but he never played for another team.  If we give Alexander credit for draft picks then we should give him credit for free agents also....  142 starts in 12 years.

So five guys in 24 seasons in rounds 3-7 and FA combined?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-17-2021, 07:55 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: Paul Alexander and Dallas.

PA was a very poor fit for what and who Dallas had. JJ brought in PA because of his reputation as a quality pass protection guru without realizing everything he teaches is not what Dallas had been using for years. In the prior year Prescott took far to many sacks and hits (mostly of his own making, but I digress)

1. PA teaches independent hands (outside high, inside low). Dallas uses the two hand punch. Dallas’ players whined incessantly about it, didn’t take to it in any way.

2. PA doesn’t use a traditional vertical set saying it is too passive. It is and plenty of successful coaches have gotten away from it, preferring the more aggressive ‘shorty’ set - Howard Mudd’s term. The thing is Dallas was full of athletic players who are right at home in that set. Bad fit.

3. PA was used to a rhythmic QB who stays in the pocket and delivers the ball out very quickly. That isn’t Dak’s game. At all. So the sacks and hits went up not down. Credit JJ for listening to someone who knew better and go back to what his players liked and were comfortable in.

Now that the o-line is older and more susceptible to injury, PA’s methods would serve this version of Dallas much better, but that ship has soared.

How do you know this?

[PDub80]

(05-20-2021, 01:14 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Did the Bengals ever confirm Marvin didn’t want Ross or is that an unsubstantiated media rumor?

It has leaked out, via ... if I recall... the Hear That Podcast Growlin that Paul Dehner Jr & Jay Morrison do explicitly on the Bengals, that Marvin adamantly wanted Jonathan Allen and was furious at the Ross pick.

He also mentioned in a recent interview something to the tune of: "I wanted big linemen for the AFC North, but the front office wanted Ferraris." In response to a roster or draft question that hinted around the Ross draft. This all came out in bits and pieces over the last year or so.

And no side is always correct. There are instances where Mike Brown did what the coaches wanted instead of what he thought was right... Justin Smith over Drew Breese. Dalton over Mallet are 2 more famous instances where Brown did what the coaches asked.

All I'm saying with any of this is that teams... ALL TEAMS... pull and value input from multiple sources inside and outside of their organizations. No one has a perfect system... and coaches don't always get what they want. Scouts and front office people (Tobin) overrule or outweigh them all the time in the draft. Those guys do wayyyyy more research on prospects than a coach can over the course of a year.

[CoachGeorge]

(05-20-2021, 01:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How do you know this?

I know this from multiple sources. Long-time coaching connections in the A&M program told me this a week or so after he was let go. PA has alluded to this in both his Twitter account and his Zoom clinics. Finally the words of his replacement confirmed as such.

“”Colombo, 40, is finding a balance between returning to familiar techniques from years past while not completely erasing what the team has been doing under Alexander. Alexander is known for a high-hand, low-inside hand technique that emphasized linemen becoming a stabber/striker over a puncher, which some of the players didn't want to "mess with," Alexander said recently.””

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/cowboys/2018/11/05/we-know-it-wasn-t-right-inside-what-marc-colombo-hudson-houck-are-already-doing-to-fix-cowboys-offensive-line/

One more point, the “game” has not passed PA by. Quite the contrary, he is spot-on with the trends in O-line play and amongst O-line coaches and players (including our beloved Willie Anderson and Andrew Whitworth) he remains enormously respected. Pity that some on this board loudly proclaim PA was garbage.

[BFritz21]

(05-20-2021, 01:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So five guys in 24 seasons in rounds 3-7 and FA combined?

Same thing I was thinking lol.

That's the kind of success that Mike Brown is comfortable with and why this franchise has struggled for so long.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-20-2021, 02:08 PM)PDub80 Wrote: It has leaked out, via ... if I recall... the Hear That Podcast Growlin that Paul Dehner Jr & Jay Morrison do explicitly on the Bengals, that Marvin adamantly wanted Jonathan Allen and was furious at the Ross pick.

He also mentioned in a recent interview something to the tune of: "I wanted big linemen for the AFC North, but the front office wanted Ferraris." In response to a roster or draft question that hinted around the Ross draft. This all came out in bits and pieces over the last year or so.

And no side is always correct. There are instances where Mike Brown did what the coaches wanted instead of what he thought was right... Justin Smith over Drew Breese. Dailton over Kaepernick are 2 morw famous instances where Brown did what the coaches asked.

All I'm saying with any of this is that teams... ALL TEAMS... pull and value input from multiple sources inside and outside of their organizations. No one has a perfect system... and coaches don't always get what they want. Scouts and front office people (Tobin) overrule or outweigh them all the time in the draft. Those guys do wayyyyy more research on prospects than a coach can over the course of a year.

Can you give me the definition of “fact”?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-20-2021, 02:49 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: I know this from multiple sources. Long-time coaching connections in the A&M program told me this a week or so after he was let go. PA has alluded to this in both his Twitter account and his Zoom clinics. Finally the words of his replacement confirmed as such.

“”Colombo, 40, is finding a balance between returning to familiar techniques from years past while not completely erasing what the team has been doing under Alexander. Alexander is known for a high-hand, low-inside hand technique that emphasized linemen becoming a stabber/striker over a puncher, which some of the players didn't want to "mess with," Alexander said recently.””

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/cowboys/2018/11/05/we-know-it-wasn-t-right-inside-what-marc-colombo-hudson-houck-are-already-doing-to-fix-cowboys-offensive-line/

One more point, the “game” has not passed PA by. Quite the contrary, he is spot-on with the trends in O-line play and amongst O-line coaches and players (including our beloved Willie Anderson and Andrew Whitworth) he remains enormously respected. Pity that some on this board loudly proclaim PA was garbage.

So people not in the organization knew the players were “whining incessantly”? And is it even possible to whine “incessantly” for only seven weeks?

Also, your quote was from Alexander, not Columbo.