Defensive Improvements

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-26-2021, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Here's the deal...we weren't just bad...we were letting the Ravens set records with 404 yards rushing.

I don't care what your roster looks like, you have to place some blame on coaching for disasters like that.

A good coach can at least make a bad roster look a little better. Did Lou make us better? Eh...

That's what happens when you play a playoff team who is one of if not the best rushing team in the league and they have the ball for 2/3 of the game while your team converts 1/9 3rd downs and your QB only completes 6 passes for 48 yards and has 2 INTs. And you have a whole slew of back end of the roster guys like Margus Hunt, Xavier Williams, Amani Bledsoe, Christian Covington, Khalid Kareem, and Khalil Mckenzie taking a large portion of your DL snaps.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-26-2021, 11:18 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: That's what happens when you play a playoff team who is one of if not the best rushing team in the league and they have the ball for 2/3 of the game while your team converts 1/9 3rd downs and your QB only completes 6 passes for 48 yards and has 2 INTs. And you have a whole slew of back end of the roster guys like Margus Hunt, Xavier Williams, Amani Bledsoe, Christian Covington, Khalid Kareem, and Khalil Mckenzie taking a large portion of your DL snaps.

The defense still allowed all those yards. They couldn't get themselves off the field. You're placing blame everywhere but on Lou.

You realize when a team sets a record, that we're going back through 50 years of Bengals football?

How many terrible defenses did we have in the 90s? None allowed 404 rush yards. It was pathetic, regardless of who we trotted on the field

I wish I could share your optimism. I like the personnel we have now. Just not sold on Lou. He's in Teryl Austin territory to me.

[Joelist]

Lou should have totally sold out to the run and tried to make the Rats throw the ball. But that type of logical thinking seems to elude him...

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2021, 08:51 PM)OSUfan Wrote: I personally am excited to see a 100% recovered Markus Bailey get to take some real snaps at LB. If it had not been for the injuries he endured in college he would likely have been drafted far higher.

I have been saying this same thing for a while.

I am not predicting he will develop into a good NFL player, but he has a lot more potential than most guys drafted that late.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-26-2021, 08:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: What were we last season like 31st ? in total defense. I'd be pleased to jump all the way to 15th.

22nd in Points Allowed, 26th in Yards Allowed.

[lone bengal]

(05-26-2021, 11:18 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: That's what happens when you play a playoff team who is one of if not the best rushing team in the league and they have the ball for 2/3 of the game while your team converts 1/9 3rd downs and your QB only completes 6 passes for 48 yards and has 2 INTs. And you have a whole slew of back end of the roster guys like Margus Hunt, Xavier Williams, Amani Bledsoe, Christian Covington, Khalid Kareem, and Khalil Mckenzie taking a large portion of your DL snaps.

Completely get your point with that defensive personnel you can’t expect much and injuries hurt them. My only concern is there were games where outside of Wayne’s the defense was healthy and they played bad. Week 2 versus Cleveland they gave up 35 points and gave up 215 rushing yards. Week 4 versus Jacksonville the worst team in the league they gave up 25 points and Gardner Minshew threw for 351 yards and 2 tds. In those games they had Dunlap, Lawson, Hubbard, Reader, all there LB’s were healthy , Bell , Bates , WJ3 and Alexander. Week 1 they only gave up 16 points to the Chargers with Tyrod Taylor at QB not Herbert. Week 3 vs. Philly they did enough to give the team a chance to win. I left off week 5 vs. the Ravens because the offense was so horrific and only scored 3 points and they were down 2 cb’s. I stopped at week 6 versus Indy because that’s when Reader went down and the injuries started to pile up.

[TecmoBengals]

I just hope the Bengals have a healthy defense. Then, if Lou flops there isn't a built in excuse about the team just having too many injuries and no depth.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-25-2021, 04:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Which is why it's so encouraging to see the Bengals completely purge their defense to go all-in on the great DC Lou Anarumo's scheme. Certainly won't have to do this all over again when they hire an actual competent DC in a year or two. 

I remember after Lou's first game at Seattle being so excited as the defensive line sacked Wilson (a tough tackle) a ton of times and kept them down in yardage as well, but then the following week, SF exploited the lack of outside containment time and time again and it seemed like there were no adjustments and it was just maddening to watch.

I don't know where Lou ranks.  He has shown flashes of brilliance (he actually did a damn good job against the Ravens in their first meeting last year) and times where they just look lost.  I'm going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt with a better, deeper roster and hope he can start to get some players on his side.  I give the Bengals credit for not doing the easy thing and just signing WJIII and Lawson, but going out and signing guys that they feel better fit their scheme.  Awuzie (sp?) could end up being a massive bargain over what we were talking about with a franchise tag for WJIII.  

[Sled21]

(05-27-2021, 09:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I remember after Lou's first game at Seattle being so excited as the defensive line sacked Wilson (a tough tackle) a ton of times and kept them down in yardage as well, but then the following week, SF exploited the lack of outside containment time and time again and it seemed like there were no adjustments and it was just maddening to watch.

I don't know where Lou ranks.  He has shown flashes of brilliance (he actually did a damn good job against the Ravens in their first meeting last year) and times where they just look lost.  I'm going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt with a better, deeper roster and hope he can start to get some players on his side.  I give the Bengals credit for not doing the easy thing and just signing WJIII and Lawson, but going out and signing guys that they feel better fit their scheme.  Awuzie (sp?) could end up being a massive bargain over what we were talking about with a franchise tag for WJIII.  

I truly think Lou is going to run a good defense. He just wanted to run his scheme, even with the wrong players. I guess some would say that's a bad thing, it certainly didn't work out. But, he has his players now, so time to produce. 

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(05-26-2021, 03:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I doubt the unit will be Top 10, but if it's not Top 15, it shows the ineptitude of Anarumo.
The only two starters still around from the Marvin era are Bates and Hubbard (who wasn't a starter yet), both of whom were just drafted in 2018.
They added Reader, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, Waynes, Hilton, Awuzie, and Bell in FA, plus Pratt and Wilson in the draft.

No more excuses for needing to get "your guys."

I see two guys, maybe three if Hendrikson isn't an one season wonder, on that D I'd consider above average, top 15 at their position type guys.

The others aren't bad players but if that D is pushing top 10 then the Bengals should be making a deep play-off run and Anarumo should be getting Head Coach interviews.

Compare it to the O - where there's a no.1 overall QB; Chase, Higgins and Boyd at WR; Mixon at RB; a top 12 pick at OT in Jonah Williams. Now that's a unit that should be top 15.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-27-2021, 12:51 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I see two guys, maybe three if Hendrikson isn't an one season wonder, on that D I'd consider above average, top 15 at their position type guys.

Just out of curiosity, who are your other two?  As I see it;  Reader, Hendrickson, Bates, Hilton and possibly Waynes and Bell, all could be in the top 15 of their position this year.  I realize that I'm going out on a limb, by mentioning Waynes, as he's yet to play a down for the Bengals.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-26-2021, 11:18 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: That's what happens when you play a playoff team who is one of if not the best rushing team in the league and they have the ball for 2/3 of the game while your team converts 1/9 3rd downs and your QB only completes 6 passes for 48 yards and has 2 INTs. And you have a whole slew of back end of the roster guys like Margus Hunt, Xavier Williams, Amani Bledsoe, Christian Covington, Khalid Kareem, and Khalil Mckenzie taking a large portion of your DL snaps.

The NFL was founded over 100 years ago in 1920.  The NFL merged over 50 years ago in 1966.

Now you're probably wondering "what the hell does this have to do with anything?"  A.) It's to provide provide context to my next statement.

In over 100 years of football, and in over 50 years of the "Super Bowl era" there have only been 4 games where a team has rushed for 400 yards or more.  4 times.  Total.  Let that really sink in.

In roughly estimating the total amount of games played in those latter 50 years, the best number I could come up with (without a ton of research) is 22,400 games.  There have been somewhere around 22,400 games since 1966.

Really wrap your head around these numbers above.  The amount of years, the amount of games played.  We're talking about an incredible amount of data, and an incredibly amount of opportunity to meet that mark (400 yards).

Now come back to the fact it's only happened 4 times.  I think if you really try to think about this you'll come to the conclusion that there is no explanation or excuse that can be made to rationalize that level of output.

In all of those thousands and thousands of games, played decade after decade after decade, you don't think there's been countless examples of teams who faced similar cirucumstances (facing a great rushing team and having backups play)????

Making this all the worse, is the fact the Ravens started pulling their starters in the late 3rd quarter.  We didn't give this up in a close game against their #1's playing till the end.  A lot of this came with their backups, and with us knowing full well what they were going to do (run clock).  Yet we still couldn't stop it.

I'm sorry, I think if everyone thinks long and hard about this then they'll know there is no way to come to any conclusion other than this was an asbolutely pathetic performance.  There's not an excuse in the world that helps forgives such a historic performance.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-27-2021, 12:51 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I see two guys, maybe three if Hendrikson isn't an one season wonder, on that D I'd consider above average, top 15 at their position type guys.

The others aren't bad players but if that D is pushing top 10 then the Bengals should be making a deep play-off run and Anarumo should be getting Head Coach interviews.

Compare it to the O - where there's a no.1 overall QB; Chase, Higgins and Boyd at WR; Mixon at RB; a top 12 pick at OT in Jonah Williams. Now that's a unit that should be top 15.

My expectations for the starting defense:
Hendrickson - above average (in pass rush at least)
Hubbard - average (above avg in run defense, below avg in pass rush)
Ogunjobi - average (had a down year in CLE after playing NT)
Reader - above average (near elite in run defense, commanding double teams. if not, not worth the $$)

Pratt - below average
Wilson - below average

Waynes - at least average (if not, waste of $$)
Awuzie - decent as a CB2, will have ups and downs
Hilton - above average slot
Bates - elite
Bell - average to above average for SS expectations

To me, there are only a few guys below average, but a few guys above average, so it should kinda balance out to be an average defense.
If the Bengals end up in the 14-18 range, that's average.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-27-2021, 09:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: He has shown flashes of brilliance (he actually did a damn good job against the Ravens in their first meeting last year)

I have never connected brilliance and allowing 161 rushing yards at 6.7 yards per carry in a game before. Lol

They scored 17 in the first half and then just put it in cruise control. (Bengals massively won time of possession in that game, too, so they didn't just allow all the rushing because the defense was tired.)

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(05-27-2021, 01:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Just out of curiosity, who are your other two?  As I see it;  Reader, Hendrickson, Bates, Hilton and possibly Waynes and Bell, all could be in the top 15 of their position this year.  I realize that I'm going out on a limb, by mentioning Waynes, as he's yet to play a down for the Bengals.

Bates and Reader.


FWIW (and I know Fred rates them highly) PFF has Hendrickson as the 29th edge and DJ Reader the 21st interior D-lineman in their rankings of top 32 at each position. No LBs and they haven't done safeties and corners but I'd expect only Bates from the Bengals to feature from the secondary.

That would be just 3 players in the top 160 defensive players in the NFL, and presumably only one ranked in the top 20 at their position.

[bengals67]

(05-27-2021, 09:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have been saying this same thing for a while.

I am not predicting he will develop into a good NFL player, but he has a lot more potential than most guys drafted that late.

hope this is proven true. 

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(05-27-2021, 02:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: My expectations for the starting defense:
Hendrickson - above average (in pass rush at least)
Hubbard - average (above avg in run defense, below avg in pass rush)
Ogunjobi - average (had a down year in CLE after playing NT)
Reader - above average (near elite in run defense, commanding double teams. if not, not worth the $$)

Pratt - below average
Wilson - below average

Waynes - at least average (if not, waste of $$)
Awuzie - decent as a CB2, will have ups and downs
Hilton - above average slot
Bates - elite
Bell - average to above average for SS expectations

To me, there are only a few guys below average, but a few guys above average, so it should kinda balance out to be an average defense.
If the Bengals end up in the 14-18 range, that's average.

That seems a decent summary. Not sure there's much difference between say 14th and 20th. I'd consider those to be within the margin of error, so to speak. An injury to a key player (eg Bates or Reader) probably knocks the D down into the 20s though.

[OSUfan]

(05-27-2021, 09:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have been saying this same thing for a while.

I am not predicting he will develop into a good NFL player, but he has a lot more potential than most guys drafted that late.

I remember watching him against the Buckeyes and being impressed with his performance. If I am not mistaken he had a pick against them that season. I had read one scouting report on him that said his coverage skills were near the top in the draft class for what that is worth. 

[*ochocincos*]

Bengals should have never let Guenther leave. Was a damn good DC in Cincy.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-27-2021, 06:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals should have never let Guenther leave. Was a damn good DC in Cincy.

Was he really?  I mean, it didn't take Gruden long to replace Guenther with Gus Bradley in Las Vegas.