More Schein Love

[Frank Booth]

(05-31-2021, 01:27 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You compared him to Ryan Fitzpatrick. I strongly disagree with that comparison, and I also disagreed that we had no business starting him for as long as we did. Dalton was a very worthy starting QB for most of his time with us.

I wouldn’t bother arguing with someone who genuinely believes Dalton was that bad. Seems like they are the type of person who thinks irrationally

[CJD]

(05-31-2021, 01:27 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You compared him to Ryan Fitzpatrick. I strongly disagree with that comparison, and I also disagreed that we had no business starting him for as long as we did. Dalton was a very worthy starting QB for most of his time with us.

Okay, so our disconnect is you think an average QB is worthy of starting without trying to replace and I don't. The comparison to Fitz was in that same vein.

I'm just glad we agree that Dalton was never an above average QB.

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[CJD]

(05-31-2021, 02:44 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: I wouldn’t bother arguing with someone who genuinely believes Dalton was that bad. Seems like they are the type of person who thinks irrationally

I'm starting to think you guys just don't respect Ryan Fitzpatrick haha. He is not some garbage heap QB. He has been one of the most premier back up QBs in the NFL over the last half decade or so. A QB that can come off the bench and not only give your team the chance to win but actually provide a spark to the team in the way the starter couldn't (like he did to Tua in Miami)? That's a valuable player right there.

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[Shake n Blake]

(05-31-2021, 02:47 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Okay, so our disconnect is you think an average QB is worthy of starting without trying to replace and I don't. The comparison to Fitz was in that same vein.

I'm just glad we agree that Dalton was never an above average QB.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

1. You don't try to replace a top 15 QB unless something falls in your lap. When Peyton Manning came available, I wanted us to pursue. Towards the end, I wouldn't have minded drafting someone like Mahomes, as we were within range to get him, and Dalton was tailing off.

But you don't go willy nilly throwing late first round picks on a QB or bringing in random "meh" free agents just because you dont have a top guy. That'd be stupid. It's HARD to find an elite QB. I'm still not sold Burrow will even be that guy.

2. No, we don't agree Dalton was "never" above average. That is factually incorrect. He had several above average seasons in his prime, and several below average seasons towards the back end. Overall, his career with us was pretty average.

It's similar to Cam Newton. He had one amazing season, 2-3 really good seasons, and a handful of bad or subpar years. Overall, I'd say he had a pretty average career for a long term starter.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-31-2021, 02:49 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'm starting to think you guys just don't respect Ryan Fitzpatrick haha. He is not some garbage heap QB. He has been one of the most premier back up QBs in the NFL over the last half decade or so. A QB that can come off the bench and not only give your team the chance to win but actually provide a spark to the team in the way the starter couldn't (like he did to Tua in Miami)? That's a valuable player right there.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

But Dalton is statistically better than Fitz, by a substantial margin.

So the comparison sucks, frankly.

[sandwedge]

(05-31-2021, 07:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. You don't try to replace a top 15 QB unless something falls in your lap. When Peyton Manning came available, I wanted us to pursue. Towards the end, I wouldn't have minded drafting someone like Mahomes, as we were within range to get him, and Dalton was tailing off.

But you don't go willy nilly throwing late first round picks on a QB or bringing in random "meh" free agents just because you dont have a top guy. That'd be stupid. It's HARD to find an elite QB. I'm still not sold Burrow will even be that guy.

2. No, we don't agree Dalton was "never" above average. That is factually incorrect. He had several above average seasons in his prime, and several below average seasons towards the back end. Overall, his career with us was pretty average.

It's similar to Cam Newton. He had one amazing season, 2-3 really good seasons, and a handful of bad or subpar years. Overall, I'd say he had a pretty average career for a long term starter.

Honest question here Shake, how good do you think Mahomes would have been here with the O-line we've had the last few years? He looked pretty average in the SB with the constant pressure he was getting.

[CJD]

(05-31-2021, 07:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. You don't try to replace a top 15 QB unless something falls in your lap. When Peyton Manning came available, I wanted us to pursue. Towards the end, I wouldn't have minded drafting someone like Mahomes, as we were within range to get him, and Dalton was tailing off.

But you don't go willy nilly throwing late first round picks on a QB or bringing in random "meh" free agents just because you dont have a top guy. That'd be stupid. It's HARD to find an elite QB. I'm still not sold Burrow will even be that guy.

2. No, we don't agree Dalton was "never" above average. That is factually incorrect. He had several above average seasons in his prime, and several below average seasons towards the back end. Overall, his career with us was pretty average.

It's similar to Cam Newton. He had one amazing season, 2-3 really good seasons, and a handful of bad or subpar years. Overall, I'd say he had a pretty average career for a long term starter.

1. I'm glad you brought up Mahomes, because you're ignoring the most obvious way to replace a "good not great" QB without throwing late first round picks at it or signing free agents. From 2014 to 2017, they consistently had mid to late first round picks because of their mid tier/acceptable/maybe top 15 QB Alex Smith but chose to trade up to get their potential franchise guy. Then, obviously, there were the project QBs that had high potential but fell because people weren't certain how they'd pan out, like Lamar Jackson. I remember Mo Egger pounding the table hard for him in 2018. If you traded up or took a Jackson and it didn't work out, fine. But we didn't even attempt to upgrade the most important position in the NFL (and possibly all of sports).

2. Having an above average season and being an above average QB are not the same thing. Dalton had one really good year, a few slightly above average years, a good number of average years and a few bad years. If you get an A, 2 Bs, 3 Cs and 2 Ds, your final grade is going to be around a C, maybe a C+. Having that A and 2 Bs does not make you a B student.

(05-31-2021, 07:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: But Dalton is statistically better than Fitz, by a substantial margin.

So the comparison sucks, frankly.

You can compare two players without them being considered exactly the same. Dalton has had a better career overall than Fitz because he was given a lot of opportunities to start whereas Fitz has been playing from behind for a lot of his career and has switched teams and schemes for years now looking for that opportunity to start. 

That doesn't mean him and Dalton can't be similar in ideal role. They are both good enough to win games with the right team around them but not good enough to rest an entire franchise's future on their shoulders, despite their insistence that they are. 

Since Dalton left Cincinnati, he has gone on to back up Dak in Dallas (and did pretty decent in that role when called upon) and now he's in Chicago and while they said he would be the starter, they then immediately drafted Justin Fields. Maybe the Bears didn't think they'd be in range of a new starting QB in the draft this year so they decided to wait until 2022 to try and address the QB position so they signed Dalton just to have a game manager who, if the defense is elite, could sneak them into the playoffs. Or maybe they always planned to draft a QB and just told Dalton he was the starter so he would sign (Which would be a pretty big dick move, to be honest), but my point is since Dalton left Cincinnati, he has never been considered a franchise QB.

I just would have preferred the Bengals had treated him like every other franchise seems to want to treat him (and the way teams also treat Fitzpatrick). A good bridge QB for a young QB or a great back up QB who can win games and help in a pinch but won't be relied upon to be the unquestioned starter for years at a time.

EDIT: Also, as a side note, we were talking about QB rating and how it's a subjective measure and is it really a good way to grade QBs. You asked me what metric would I prefer and, while I don't think it's perfect and it appears to be a confidential formula (much like PFF's grades, which I would have checked for Dalton if I had the subscription), I do think it is worth pointing out that ESPN's QBR is much less charitable to Andy Dalton. Below are his QBR ranks and his QB Rating ranks by year:

2011:
QBR: 20th QB Rating: 20th
2012:
QBR: 21st QB Rating: 13th
2013:
QBR: 17th QB Rating: 15th
2014:
QBR: 22nd QB Rating: 25th
2015:
QBR: 3rd QB Rating: 2nd
2016:
QBR: 20th QB Rating: 15th
2017:
QBR: 25th QB Rating: 18th
2018:
QBR: 15th QB Rating: 26th
2019:
QBR: 27th QB Rating: 32th

So that rating system supports my "average or worse" sentiment pretty well, with the exception of 2015.

[Essex Johnson]

Well I expect improvement for sure, especially since we have loaded up the offense for Burrow and made changes to the Oline, if Burrow is what we expect him to be we should win minimum 6 to 7 games with a franchise QB.. if not ZT is probably out the door and now Burrow's 3rd year will be crucial to see if he is really a franchise QB or just another average to decent QB in the NFL.

The Steelers are walking a tightrope this year with Ben's age/health, line changes, weak DB area.. but they still have weapons and solid front 7.. they could bust or surprise this year.. im hoping for bust of course

[*bfine32*]

As to Dalton:

I always agreed with the term "The Dalton Line". If you have a starter worse than Andy you need a new one. If you have a QB better than Andy, you don't. Many considered that "hate", but it's an assesment I agreed with.

WTS, Andy's a great person and I have no reason to question his leadership. I will say his pre-Indy playoff motivation to the ream was very cringe-worthy.

As to the OP:
If we don't; Zac and company need to be shown the door.

[Frank Booth]

It’s funny how the Dalton detractors always refer to the media talking points like Dalton line, and horrific fake stats like QBR

You’re just showing how easily influenced you are by sports media

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 11:11 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: It’s funny how the Dalton detractors always refer to the media talking points like Dalton line, and horrific fake stats like QBR

You’re just showing how easily influenced you are by sports media

Or maybe, and here's a crazy thought, the media presented an idea and people agreed with that idea based on their own observations.

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 12:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Or maybe, and here's a crazy thought, the media presented an idea and people agreed with that idea based on their own observations.

The media only watched primetime and playoff games

Us, the fans, would watch all the games.

Of course the media would crap on Dalton. The bengals would lose every primetime game they had. But I remember all those non primetime games, and Dalton was good in those.

I don’t disagree with the Dalton line per say. I think people having him ranked 16th out of 32 starting nfl qb’s was fair

But to say that if a qb is ranked below dalton(17th and lower), he needs to be replaced? That was garbage.

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 12:50 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: The media only watched primetime and playoff games

Us, the fans, would watch all the games.

Of course the media would crap on Dalton. The bengals would lose every primetime game they had. But I remember all those non primetime games, and Dalton was good in those.

I don’t disagree with the Dalton line per say. I think people having him ranked 16th out of 32 starting nfl qb’s was fair

But to say that if a qb is ranked below dalton(17th and lower), he needs to be replaced? That was garbage.

Why?

Everyone in the NFL wants an above average QB. If being worse than Dalton indicates a QB is below average, why is it garbage to say you should replace that QB?

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 12:58 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Why?

Everyone in the NFL wants an above average QB. If being worse than Dalton indicates a QB is below average, why is it garbage to say you should replace that QB?

It’s so easy to say, “replace that qb. He’s the 18th best in the league”

But in reality, it’s really hard to find a guy through drafting that can end up being better than that. A guy who is ranked 18th best qb in the league most likely means he is a top 10 qb in their respected conference. Which is fine.

There’s more to the game than quarterbacks. You can win with the 20th best qb in the league

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-30-2021, 09:38 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: ...unless you’re an offensive lineman.

I don't want to further derail, but you ABSOLUTELY want to aim high, if you're an OLineman; you want to aim high, but keep pad level low.

If you aim low, someone taller is just going to slap your hands/arms down and push you to the ground/out of the play: principles of sumo wrestling.

Keep your body and pad level low, but aim up/level.

(05-30-2021, 11:53 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: I will be shocked if the Bengals win more games than the Steelers this season. Make no mistake, I want it to happen. Having the Steelers looking up at us from the cellar would be great!

I just don't see it. regardless of the roster they are light years better at coaching. can't stand Tomlin, but he coaches circles around Taylor. That is part of why you can never count them out. I hope that I have to eat a huge serving of crow after the season. I really, really do. I still think the Bengals finish dead last in the division this coming season.

Yes, Tomlin really coached circles against a Ryan Finley-led team that had a net of 78 pass yards.

See, this is where the Taylor hate gets completely hyperbolic; the guy has a putrid record and there have been a fair share of questionable calls and decisions made, but HE bent Tomlin over and showed him the 50 states, in his coaching that night. Give credit where credit is due.

"Blind Squirrel," or not, that was a better-coached game and a half.

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 01:02 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: It’s so easy to say, “replace that qb. He’s the 18th best in the league”

But in reality, it’s really hard to find a guy through drafting that can end up being better than that. A guy who is ranked 18th best qb in the league most likely means he is a top 10 qb in their respected conference. Which is fine.

There’s more to the game than quarterbacks. You can win with the 20th best qb in the league

In some rare cases, you can win with an average or below average QB. But having an above average QB is the easiest pathway to success. 

And many of those rare cases are now 20 years old (Brad Johnson in 2002, Trent Dilfer is 2000). In the last 10 years, it's been almost exclusively elite QBs that have won the Super Bowl (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers). The only exception in recent history was Nick Foles who was backing up an (at the time) elite QB in Wentz. 

I don't think its unreasonable to say "you should strive to replace an average QB with an above average or elite QB, if possible. Your chances of winning will significantly increase if you succeed in doing so." and that's what the Dalton Line was all about. Identifying those QBs that, ideally, should be replaced.

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: In some rare cases, you can win with an average or below average QB. But having an above average QB is the easiest pathway to success. 

And many of those rare cases are now 20 years old (Brad Johnson in 2002, Trent Dilfer is 2000). In the last 10 years, it's been almost exclusively elite QBs that have won the Super Bowl (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers). The only exception in recent history was Nick Foles who was backing up an (at the time) elite QB in Wentz. 

I don't think its unreasonable to say "you should strive to replace an average QB with an above average or elite QB, if possible. Your chances of winning will significantly increase if you succeed in doing so." and that's what the Dalton Line was all about. Identifying those QBs that, ideally, should be replaced.

it's really not that rare in recent times. 2012 Ravens, 2015 Broncos, 2017 Eagles. This is all relatively recent

But I would like to hear your opinion on 2 current quarterbacks

Kirk Cosuins and Matt Ryan. What are your thoughts on these guys?

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: that's what the Dalton Line was all about. Identifying those QBs that, ideally, should be replaced.

Except you never see half of the NFL turnover at QB every year.  The top 20-25 usually stand pat.  QBs are too expensive to try to acquire a new one every other year.  People like to point to Mahommes or what the Packer did with Rodgers and Love, but those are rare exceptions to the general rule in the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: In some rare cases, you can win with an average or below average QB. But having an above average QB is the easiest pathway to success. 

And many of those rare cases are now 20 years old (Brad Johnson in 2002, Trent Dilfer is 2000). In the last 10 years, it's been almost exclusively elite QBs that have won the Super Bowl (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers). The only exception in recent history was Nick Foles who was backing up an (at the time) elite QB in Wentz. 

In the last 4 years Jimmy Garoppolo, Nick Foles, and Jared Goff have all started in a Super Bowl.  In the last ten years we have also had Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, Joe Flacco, and a crippled Peyton Manning playing on a walker.  Eli Manning was not even close to an "elite" QB and he has two rings.

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 02:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In the last 4 years Jimmy Garoppolo, Nick Foles, and Jared Goff have all started in a Super Bowl.  In the last ten years we have also had Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, Joe Flacco, and a crippled Peyton Manning playing on a walker.  Eli Manning was not even close to an "elite" QB and he has two rings.

shh with the logic. It goes against the media narrative

Dalton was Fitzpatrick tier