Former NFL Executive: Zac Taylor 'Not Qualified to be Head Coach

[Murdock2420]

(06-29-2021, 10:06 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Strangely, the players all obviously feel differently. I value their opinion as a whole far far more than anyone else's.

Thing with this is, the players can like him and he can be a good guy and build a good culture and still not be a good play caller or game manager.

What I've seen is a guy that has worked to get his type of players but then hires coaches like Taylor that are the exact opposite. He seems to have an idea of what he wants to do and I do believe the players like him and buy his concepts, but he just isn't ready to be the guy making all the decisions at this point. He needed some time as an O.C. 

[NATI BENGALS]

Umm. Dude has 2 years of experience as an NFL head coach. And in these times with this labor shortage I’ll take the guy who at least has some experience with the job.

To be fair. The core of veterans of the team he inherited were collecting fat paychecks and mentally checked out. Nobody was banging down Daltons door to make him a starter and year two he started a rookie QB with no off-season. The defense had to be completely remade it was in such bad shape.

Big things coming in year 3

[grampahol]

Maybe the lights come on for Zac, maybe not, but one thing I do know is just because his last name is Lombardi doesn't mean his first name is Vince.

[PDub80]

(06-30-2021, 12:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually we don't know for sure how the players feel.  No matter how bad a coach sucks players almost always speak positively of their current coach.  That applies to every team, not just the Bengals.

I 100% agree with you that players will tow the company line and be positive while under contract. Hell, Mike Brown famously invented a contract clause (Thanks, Carl Pickens) to stop guys from being disparaging. So, there's certainly a major element to what you're saying.

The players actions under Taylor, however, are what speaks volumes to me. The players continued to work hard, play hard, and show up last season - even while losing. I love that. That speaks to their character as guys, but also to Taylor's in the sense of - if they hated him or didn't care, would they: Keep battling through season end? Would they have enthusiasm? Would they remain positive? Would they beat the Steelers the way they did on MNF with a 3rd string QB?

^ I think those actions speak the loudest. Now throw in the fact that the players are coming to voluntaries with 100% attendance and, to me, they are screaming with support of Taylor through their actions. They aren't doing that on their own if they thought Taylor couldn't cut it or wasn't capable.

(06-30-2021, 02:15 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Thing with this is, the players can like him and he can be a good guy and build a good culture and still not be a good play caller or game manager.

What I've seen is a guy that has worked to get his type of players but then hires coaches like Taylor that are the exact opposite. He seems to have an idea of what he wants to do and I do believe the players like him and buy his concepts, but he just isn't ready to be the guy making all the decisions at this point. He needed some time as an O.C. 

Ok, so, this is where I agree with you to an extent, but you and I part ways at the fork in the Taylor road. Let me explain...

There is no way... NO WAY... anyone should have looked at the Taylor signing - or the Bengals roster when he was hired -  and thought it was designed to win now (2019/20). Of course he wasn't ready and of course the roster was going to need remade. To me, the Taylor hire was about transitioning a roster and a culture change with an eye towards the modern NFL, which had passed Marvin by.

Taylor was going to have to learn on the job and was in over his head from day 1. But that doesn't mean he will ALWAYS be in over his head. There's a difference between learning and drowning. Last year, I didn't see a guy drowning (2019? Yeah, he was struggling). But, in 2020, I saw a guy who was a player or two away from having an very good team and a handful of players (and some coaching changes) away from having a great team - all things considered.

I see possible long term benefits to Taylor having the freedom to learn as he goes... and  NO, LOL, those benefits weren't going to show up in immediate wins and losses right away. I do think there are a lot of good things and changes the team has made and am ok with the 2 steps back to take 5 steps forward, if that's what was needed in the long run.

Are there things I look at and think they were idiotic or were major lessons for the guy? YES. But I, personally, always thought it was going to be year 3 or 4 before Taylor was going to be able to have serious expectations in terms of wins/losses. I think the Bengals hired a super smart, up and coming guy who had to learn the ins and outs of coaching. I am ok seeing that through because I think organizations and fans are wayyyyy too short with the hook with coaches.

Bottom line for me: Regardless of how tough the schedule is or Joey B's knee, the Bengals MUST show major improvement in wins/losses THIS season for Taylor to remain. 2 years is enough time to figure out what needs to be done and know how to do it. I think the Bengals have a lot of talent. More than people are willing to admit. Those close, 1 score losses need to change into wins and at this stage with the roster having the talent that it does coaching & game management/planning matters.

[Sled21]

(06-30-2021, 12:56 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I was thinking there are 50 senators.. been awhile since that middle school civics class. I know enough to realize they’re all a bunch of crooks and that I’d rather have the right to choose how they spend my tax money though. Infrastructure would be nice.

Yeah, he’s not wrong about Zac at this point. If they don’t get things rolling this year, it’s time to bring in someone else for sure. I like the young players they’re accumulating though. We could start winning this year. If we underperform because of coaching, I hope they realize before it’s too late though. Hoping the staff can put it together though. It’s a make or break year for me.

Every state has 2. 100 Senators. The only thing this guy brings to the table is his last name.

[Bengalitis]

Coach do something, we are losing by 2 scores again.

Coach Zac: Hush! Don't distract me now, I'm calling the plays (on offense).

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-29-2021, 09:06 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Whether there's merit to the notion or not, Lombardi is an idiot, a loser and has arguably as bad a track record as Zac, if not worse.

You think Lombardi has as bad a track record as Zac?  Why?

---He's been on staff for 3 Super Bowl wins. 

---He's worked with Bill Walsh, Al Davis, and Bill Belichick

----He was 2nd in command to Al Davis when they last made a Superbowl appearance, and they won the AFC West in 3 consecutive years. 

----He worked with Bill Belichick in both Cleveland and New England. 

---Belichick described him as so: "Mike's...one of the smartest people I've worked with. He was huge asset to me for the two years he was here...he studies football and he knows it very well."

---Bill Walsh is the one who gave him his first job, and he is credited with discovering Charles Haley.

----He had a 32 year long career in the NFL (Idiots and losers don't last 3 decades in this league.)

Look, I know you're angry and I know his statements struck a nerve.  But don't let hurt feelings cause you to embarrass yourself with ridiculous statements.  Comparing someone with the resume outlined above to a coach who has gone 6-25-1 is just crazy talk.

[TecmoBengals]

(06-29-2021, 09:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Being too stupid to know how many U.S. Senators there are kind of diminishes his opinion.

That was the first point that jumped out at me when I read the article. 52 U.S. Senators?

Quote:"When you have a job that's harder to get than United States Senator, there's only 52 of those and you have a job that's harder to get than that, you have to bring certain credentials to the table.

I could no longer care about the article if the guy is that dumb.

[TJ528]

(06-30-2021, 08:02 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I 100% agree with you that players will tow the company line and be positive while under contract. Hell, Mike Brown famously invented a contract clause (Thanks, Carl Pickens) to stop guys from being disparaging. So, there's certainly a major element to what you're saying.

The players actions under Taylor, however, are what speaks volumes to me. The players continued to work hard, play hard, and show up last season - even while losing. I love that. That speaks to their character as guys, but also to Taylor's in the sense of - if they hated him or didn't care, would they: Keep battling through season end? Would they have enthusiasm? Would they remain positive? Would they beat the Steelers the way they did on MNF with a 3rd string QB?

^ I think those actions speak the loudest. Now throw in the fact that the players are coming to voluntaries with 100% attendance and, to me, they are screaming with support of Taylor through their actions. They aren't doing that on their own if they thought Taylor couldn't cut it or wasn't capable.



Ok, so, this is where I agree with you to an extent, but you and I part ways at the fork in the Taylor road. Let me explain...

There is no way... NO WAY... anyone should have looked at the Taylor signing - or the Bengals roster when he was hired -  and thought it was designed to win now (2019/20). Of course he wasn't ready and of course the roster was going to need remade. To me, the Taylor hire was about transitioning a roster and a culture change with an eye towards the modern NFL, which had passed Marvin by.

Taylor was going to have to learn on the job and was in over his head from day 1. But that doesn't mean he will ALWAYS be in over his head. There's a difference between learning and drowning. Last year, I didn't see a guy drowning (2019? Yeah, he was struggling). But, in 2020, I saw a guy who was a player or two away from having an very good team and a handful of players (and some coaching changes) away from having a great team - all things considered.

I see possible long term benefits to Taylor having the freedom to learn as he goes... and  NO, LOL, those benefits weren't going to show up in immediate wins and losses right away. I do think there are a lot of good things and changes the team has made and am ok with the 2 steps back to take 5 steps forward, if that's what was needed in the long run.

Are there things I look at and think they were idiotic or were major lessons for the guy? YES. But I, personally, always thought it was going to be year 3 or 4 before Taylor was going to be able to have serious expectations in terms of wins/losses. I think the Bengals hired a super smart, up and coming guy who had to learn the ins and outs of coaching. I am ok seeing that through because I think organizations and fans are wayyyyy too short with the hook with coaches.

Bottom line for me: Regardless of how tough the schedule is or Joey B's knee, the Bengals MUST show major improvement in wins/losses THIS season for Taylor to remain. 2 years is enough time to figure out what needs to be done and know how to do it. I think the Bengals have a lot of talent. More than people are willing to admit. Those close, 1 score losses need to change into wins and at this stage with the roster having the talent that it does coaching & game management/planning matters.

Hmm lets see we as a fan base have lived through a coach who had 16 wins in 4 1/2 seasons named David Shula. I'm guessing we didn't wait long enough to fire him?  How about the Bruce Coslet experiment where he quit on his own or i mean even Marvin Lewis, who spent 15 years as part of this organization as each parted ways.  What coaches is the organization to short with the hook on?  Taylor?  Turner?  Lou?   

Lets call a spade a spade, when Taylor is fired it'll be because he's incompetent at his job.  He's not going to get 4 years unless he gets 9-10 wins in 2021 and makes the playoffs.  Mike Brown knows a turd when he sees one because he's hired a few. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-30-2021, 08:02 AM)PDub80 Wrote: The players actions under Taylor, however, are what speaks volumes to me. The players continued to work hard, play hard, and show up last season - even while losing. I love that.

The players have multi-million dollar contracts on the line, and are constantly either trying to keep their job and their pay, or they're auditioning for a new one and a raise.

This old saying (These guys are still working hard) should be reserved for amateur athletics or for Pro's from decades and decades ago.  Nothing is that out of the ordinary about NFL players continuing to work hard and play hard, even when they're losing.

Here's a decent example:  The Jets started last season 0-13.  Everyone in the entire world knew their coach was a lame duck.  They won 2 of their final 3 games, beating two playoff teams.  They beat the 10-6 Rams on the road.  And they beat the 11-5 Browns.

Does Adam Gase deserve a lot of credit for getting his guys to continue to play hard?  Does this performance show that they were buying into what he was selling, and his system?  Or does this show that these guys have a ton on the line, that it's "Any Given Sunday", and that doesn't change the fact that Adam Gase is a shit coach?

[PDub80]

(06-30-2021, 09:11 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Hmm lets see we as a fan base have lived through a coach who had 16 wins in 4 1/2 seasons named David Shula. I'm guessing we didn't wait long enough to fire him?  How about the Bruce Coslet experiment where he quit on his own or i mean even Marvin Lewis, who spent 15 years as part of this organization as each parted ways.  What coaches is the organization to short with the hook on?  Taylor?  Turner?  Lou?   

Lets call a spade a spade, when Taylor is fired it'll be because he's incompetent at his job.  He's not going to get 4 years unless he gets 9-10 wins in 2021 and makes the playoffs.  Mike Brown knows a turd when he sees one because he's hired a few. 

I understand we all have different levels of patience or different ways we view things. I can only speak for myself when I say that I cannot logically connect dots between coaches hired 25+ and 18 years ago and the circumstances around their failures to Taylor's trajectory (or lack thereof). Just because Dave Shula sucked and was a horrific coach from the jump doesn't mean that Zac Taylor's struggles are the same or that he deserves a shorter leash. At least, not to me he doesn't.

BTW, I was done with Marvin after the 2007 season after watching him struggle to get better or progress with a team who was in their absolute prime. Marvin Lewis had peaked by the end of 2007 and we saw his issues with mental preparedness and fortitude by then (proceedural problems and dead ball penalties). Letting a dumpy Browns team compete with them, collapses late in the season when the games mattered to make the playoffs, massive in-game leads vanished, repeatedly having the same issues on the field (missed/poor tackling was an issue for many seasons), etc etc. These issues plagued Marvin throughout his tenure in Cincinnati over the next 10+ years. I have no problem calling a spade a spade. I just don't think Zac Taylor's been given the proper amount of time to grow into the position - which we all should have known was going to take time.

As far as Lou is concerned, I'm not sold nor soured on him. I think the Bengals roster was old and virtually horrible when Taylor and his staff took over. The window had been slammed shut on those guys. Marvin fired his DC and took over on D himself... and STILL had catastrophic results. Embarrassingly so. And you want to get on Lou's back? With THOSE players? Anyone thinking a coach was coming into Cincinnati and turning water into wine year 1 was delusional. And in year 2.... with COVID and no offseason? Again, what's a reasonable expectation there?

I am not trying to paint a rosy, perfect picture of the Bengals coaching staff. I definitely think Taylor's staff has massive room to improve. I am, however, trying to paint a reasonable one by asking the question: Is Taylor and this staff CAPABLE of improving and do the players want to play for him? I answer those two questions with a YES. I was as or more impressed with Zac Taylor's coaching stretch leading up to Burrow's injury than I was by anything Marvin Lewis did. No question Taylor has potential to grow.

As far as 2021 is concerned...
They have remade the roster to their liking. They DO need a few pieces to develop (which is their job to do), but there's enough of what these coaches have asked for on the roster for them to be successful NOW. So, to me, THIS year it's reasonable to ask for 8 wins as a minimum (the players are still quite young). It's reasonable THIS year to expect them to win close games. It's reasonable THIS year to expect road wins.... especially with the easier parts of their schedule being on the road.

I was fine burning 2 seasons while the roster was remade and Taylor got his feet wet. I expected it. But if they can't swim THIS season and start to sink again... that should be the end of it. I would be really interested in seeing what Darrin Simmons can do as a head coach. I think he deserves it on multiple levels if Taylor cannot get this right.

[TJ528]

(06-30-2021, 09:38 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I understand we all have different levels of patience or different ways we view things. I can only speak for myself when I say that I cannot logically connect dots between coaches hired 25+ and 18 years ago and the circumstances around their failures to Taylor's trajectory (or lack thereof). Just because Dave Shula sucked and was a horrific coach from the jump doesn't mean that Zac Taylor's struggles are the same or that he deserves a shorter leash. At least, not to me he doesn't.

BTW, I was done with Marvin after the 2007 season after watching him struggle to get better or progress with a team who was in their absolute prime. Marvin Lewis had peaked by the end of 2007 and we saw his issues with mental preparedness and fortitude by then (proceedural problems and dead ball penalties). Letting a dumpy Browns team compete with them, collapses late in the season when the games mattered to make the playoffs, massive in-game leads vanished, repeatedly having the same issues on the field (missed/poor tackling was an issue for many seasons), etc etc. These issues plagued Marvin throughout his tenure in Cincinnati over the next 10+ years. I have no problem calling a spade a spade. I just don't think Zac Taylor's been given the proper amount of time to grow into the position - which we all should have known was going to take time.

As far as Lou is concerned, I'm not sold nor soured on him. I think the Bengals roster was old and virtually horrible when Taylor and his staff took over. The window had been slammed shut on those guys. Marvin fired his DC and took over on D himself... and STILL had catastrophic results. Embarrassingly so. And you want to get on Lou's back? With THOSE players? Anyone thinking a coach was coming into Cincinnati and turning water into wine year 1 was delusional. And in year 2.... with COVID and no offseason? Again, what's a reasonable expectation there?

I am not trying to paint a rosy, perfect picture of the Bengals coaching staff. I definitely think Taylor's staff has massive room to improve. I am, however, trying to paint a reasonable one by asking the question: Is Taylor and this staff CAPABLE of improving and do the players want to play for him? I answer those two questions with a YES. I was as or more impressed with Zac Taylor's coaching stretch leading up to Burrow's injury than I was by anything Marvin Lewis did. No question Taylor has potential to grow.

As far as 2021 is concerned...
They have remade the roster to their liking. They DO need a few pieces to develop (which is their job to do), but there's enough of what these coaches have asked for on the roster for them to be successful NOW. So, to me, THIS year it's reasonable to ask for 8 wins as a minimum (the players are still quite young). It's reasonable THIS year to expect them to win close games. It's reasonable THIS year to expect road wins.... especially with the easier parts of their schedule being on the road.

I was fine burning 2 seasons while the roster was remade and Taylor got his feet wet. I expected it. But if they can't swim THIS season and start to sink again... that should be the end of it. I would be really interested in seeing what Darrin Simmons can do as a head coach. I think he deserves it on multiple levels if Taylor cannot get this right.

PDub, very respectable response.  I appreciate it.  

The only place I'd disagree with you is on Marvin Lewis.  I'm not a fan of Marvin and it was definitely time for him to go.  

However, this organization wouldn't be at this stage of a modern day NFL front office if Marvin hadn't been hired and retained.  I do think after the devastating playoff loss in 2015 that should've been his last season. 

Marvin brought in a lot of ideas and ways of doing business in the NFL in the 2000's.  Mike Brown and his family still ran the family business like it' was 1970/80's.  

If not for Marvin, I truly think the lost decade might have slid onto the lost 2 decades in Cincinnati because Marvin was the closest thing to a competent coach this organization has hired since Sam Wyche/Forrest Greg days.  

I still think they took a step back and hired an incompetent coach.  He'll get this year to figure it out. I'm sure he can feel his ass on fire but he seems like a cocky f*** so maybe he likes his ass on fire.   However, there's nothing Lombardi said in his article that isn't fact.  

[Sled21]

(06-30-2021, 12:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually we don't know for sure how the players feel.  No matter how bad a coach sucks players almost always speak positively of their current coach.  That applies to every team, not just the Bengals.

People keep say8ing that, but players (not named Dunlap) who do not like their coaches most often just refrain from saying anything good or bad about the staff when doing interviews. You can often tell by what's not said. To almost a person, the Bengals players go out of their way to praise and are on board with what Zac is building. Sometimes, you just have to take it at face value.

[jj22]

It's easy to take shots at Zac, but Lombardi isn't worthy of any quote. He's a lame and equally inept as an NFL Executive.

[TJ528]

(06-30-2021, 10:40 AM)jj22 Wrote: It's easy to take shots at Zac, but Lombardi isn't worthy of any quote. He's a lame and equally inept as an NFL Executive.

Well JJ i'd say their both are equally lame and inept as NFL anythings. 

I mean if you look at each guys successes in the NFL, Lombardi started in 1984 and has lasted almost 30+ years, Zac was a QB coach for a couple seasons in the NFL and now a head coach with a 6-25-1 record.  

As the old saying goes, you are what your record says you are. 

Sucks that Taylor won't have a family steak house to fall back on like Shula did. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-30-2021, 12:56 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I was thinking there are 50 senators.. been awhile since that middle school civics class. I know enough to realize they’re all a bunch of crooks and that I’d rather have the right to choose how they spend my tax money though. Infrastructure would be nice.

Yeah, he’s not wrong about Zac at this point. If they don’t get things rolling this year, it’s time to bring in someone else for sure. I like the young players they’re accumulating though. We could start winning this year. If we underperform because of coaching, I hope they realize before it’s too late though. Hoping the staff can put it together though. It’s a make or break year for me.

100% agree. While the author is a fool at best, he's not wrong about Zac.... although the offense had improved before the injuries piled up.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(06-29-2021, 09:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Being too stupid to know how many U.S. Senators there are kind of diminishes his opinion.

But he is correct that so far Taylor has not shown a single sign of being a competent head coach.

I mean, I could not agree more. It would be one thing if he said 50, but 52? Does he think there are 52 states or 26? God, that is DUMB.

[Sled21]

(06-30-2021, 12:09 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I mean, I could not agree more. It would be one thing if he said 50, but 52? Does he think there are 52 states or 26? God, that is DUMB.

Well, we once had a POTUS that visited all 57 states.....

[Truck_1_0_1_]

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/9/3/16249726/former-nfl-gm-doug-pederson-head-coach-philadelphia-eagles-mike-lombardi-carson-wentz-ringer-video

If Lombardi's sad reputation couldn't be any more attacked...

Last time I'm saying it; I'm not at all saying there isn't some merit to his comments, but this is BEYOND the kettle calling the pot black.

[Au165]

(06-30-2021, 09:01 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You think Lombardi has as bad a track record as Zac?  Why?

---He's been on staff for 3 Super Bowl wins. 

---He's worked with Bill Walsh, Al Davis, and Bill Belichick

----He was 2nd in command to Al Davis when they last made a Superbowl appearance, and they won the AFC West in 3 consecutive years. 

----He worked with Bill Belichick in both Cleveland and New England. 

---Belichick described him as so: "Mike's...one of the smartest people I've worked with. He was huge asset to me for the two years he was here...he studies football and he knows it very well."

---Bill Walsh is the one who gave him his first job, and he is credited with discovering Charles Haley.

----He had a 32 year long career in the NFL (Idiots and losers don't last 3 decades in this league.)

Look, I know you're angry and I know his statements struck a nerve.  But don't let hurt feelings cause you to embarrass yourself with ridiculous statements.  Comparing someone with the resume outlined above to a coach who has gone 6-25-1 is just crazy talk.

He also hired Rob Chudzinski as the Browns Head Coach and drafted Barkevious Mingo 6th overall. Not saying the guy is wrong but he hit a pretty big iceburg when he was given the keys to drive.