(07-08-2021, 06:25 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't see how that changes anything. We've witnessed a worse team the last two seasons. I don't see how a this coaching staff is going to take the 1/3 new arrivals and somehow improve their play. They've yet to do that with roster they had.
You can't see why that changes anything because you've already made up your mind and are trying to shoe-horn the evidence into your pre-determined narrative. Be a bit more open-minded.
Jessie Bates improved his play to an all-pro level under/despite the current coaches.
According to PFF Sam Hubbard and Trey Hopkins, improved their play in 2019 compared to 2018 and in 2020 compared to 2019. Other than Boyd (improved from 2019 to 2020) that's all the starters PFF listed who were here under the previous coaching regime.
Vonn Bell went from a PFF grade of 62.8 in 2019 before he joined to 71.5 under the Bengals' coaching staff.
If they improved why can't the 1/3 new arrivals? Or the 1/3 who have only been here a year and who haven't had a full pre-season under the coaches yet? Or the 1/3 who were held back by injury. This is a rebuilt roster who we've seen very little of.
Chances are we again see a better team in 2021 than in 2020. How much better remains to be seen. Maybe the team won't improve enough but to argue the team can't improve under the coaches would be asinine and contrary to the evidence available. Maybe they'll only take small improvements like Hubbard and Hopkins. Maybe they'll make big improvements like Jessie Bates. I'll be hoping the latter.
(07-08-2021, 09:50 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's def not blantantly untrue. I wasn't the one that pointed out, in this thread, how much you hate Tate, but i certainly thought it as soon as i read your post and i amost replied the same way he did, but i decided against it.
People like to think they're objective, etc, but where there's smoke there's fire, holmes.
And there's lots of smoke when you enter into the Tate conversations.
So you claim I "bash the shit out of Tate Everytime his name comes up", I point out a thread where I discussed him in multiple posts without bashing and even defending him at points as evidence this is untrue, and you still claim it's "not untrue". Not sure how you arrive there.
Who is more likely to be objective, a person who gave unpopular takes about a player and was proven correct during the season or a person who jumped on the hype train and still can't admit their takes were wrong? You're in a very bad position to try and bring objectivity into the Auden Tate discussion.
The reality is that everyone has bad takes and makes bad predictions. Some people just have bruised egos because they jumped on that train and it didn't pan out the way they thought it would. They don't like posts that remind them of that.
(07-08-2021, 11:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: So you claim I "bash the shit out of Tate Everytime his name comes up", I point out a thread where I discussed him in multiple posts without bashing and even defending him at points as evidence this is untrue, and you still claim it's "not untrue". Not sure how you arrive there.
Who is more likely to be objective, a person who gave unpopular takes about a player and was proven correct during the season or a person who jumped on the hype train and still can't admit their takes were wrong? You're in a very bad position to try and bring objectivity into the Auden Tate discussion.
The reality is that everyone has bad takes and makes bad predictions. Some people just have bruised egos because they jumped on that train and it didn't pan out the way they thought it would. They don't like posts that remind them of that.
I don't think you're remembering exactly correctly. The body of work paints a picture. I'm not sure about any hype trains but i've always thought he was/could be a solid #3 and a very good #4 if you had that option--which they now do. There's no denying his physical abilities and i think anyone that is truly objective realizes he's not been utilized the best.
As i said, i wasn't the first to point out your..."hate" for Tate. I wasn't even the second but it certainly came to mind the instant i saw your post and i'm not usually one to jump to conclusions with limited data. Sure, there's some hyperbole in my statement, but it's a badge you earned, on the whole, as i referenced.
With all that said, i've always been and will always be on the Tate train. Yet i don't have any hope that Taylor has any idea how to use him.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(07-08-2021, 05:54 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Lack of toughness? Why would he rush back in a lost season? I’m sure Jonah would have returned at the end of the year if they were in the playoff hunt.
Really bad take.
Bad take???
The dude has missed more games than he has played in and is going into his 3rd year now. There is no "lost season" excuse for a guy who still needs to learn technique and prove he is the answer at LT long term. People hammered A.J. Green for taking plays off last year in a "lost season" but Williams gets a pass??? No sir. Not at all. Guys drafted last season have more reps on the line now than Williams, and that is just unacceptable.
Willie Anderson played on lost season after lost season and played hurt, cause that's what elite level guys on the line do. That's what leaders do, that's what you expect out of a guy that is supposed to be the anchor on a line and a guy you took in the first round.
Jonah needs to show he is the answer and you can't show that on the rehab field.
If he plays 16 games this season and is capable, I'll be as happy as anyone and glad the light went on, but right now, he is a less sturdy Tyler Eifert and on the express lane to being another draft bust.
(07-09-2021, 01:13 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Bad take???
The dude has missed more games than he has played in and is going into his 3rd year now. There is no "lost season" excuse for a guy who still needs to learn technique and prove he is the answer at LT long term. People hammered A.J. Green for taking plays off last year in a "lost season" but Williams gets a pass??? No sir. Not at all. Guys drafted last season have more reps on the line now than Williams, and that is just unacceptable.
Willie Anderson played on lost season after lost season and played hurt, cause that's what elite level guys on the line do. That's what leaders do, that's what you expect out of a guy that is supposed to be the anchor on a line and a guy you took in the first round.
Jonah needs to show he is the answer and you can't show that on the rehab field.
If he plays 16 games this season and is capable, I'll be as happy as anyone and glad the light went on, but right now, he is a less sturdy Tyler Eifert and on the express lane to being another draft bust.
(07-09-2021, 01:13 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The dude has missed more games than he has played in and is going into his 3rd year now. There is no "lost season" excuse for a guy who still needs to learn technique and prove he is the answer at LT long term. People hammered A.J. Green for taking plays off last year in a "lost season" but Williams gets a pass??? No sir. Not at all. Guys drafted last season have more reps on the line now than Williams, and that is just unacceptable.
There’s a HUGE difference between AJ giving minimal effort for entire games at a time last year, and someone like Jonah going out with actual injuries. If he misses significant time again this season then we have to start planning for his replacement, but as of now I see no reason to question the kid’s toughness. He’s had shit luck, but in the games he has played he’s played his ass off. Especially for a player in their first season, having the worst position coach in the league as his coach, and having flaming hot garbage like Jordan next to him.
The Bengals have had a bottom of the league roster for a few years now and that has been the most consistent contributor to their losing records.
....but things are looking up because over the last two offseasons the Bengals have been bringing in younger talent through not only the draft but also Free Agency.
(07-08-2021, 12:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This just re-enforces the claim that Taylor is incompetent. Marvin won 6 games with that no-talent roster while it has taken Taylor 2 years to win 6 games.
Marvin had to go. I was furious when he was brought back after the '17 season. But he was still a much better coach than Taylor has been.
You call the 2018 a no-talent roster and compare it to the 2019 and 2020 teams. There are a few distinct differences that need to be noted before you give credit to Marvin for 6 wins and criticize ZT's 6 wins in two seasons.
1.) The 2018 roster still had AJ Green in his prime for more than half the season before being lost to injury. That offense was actually doing pretty well before he went down. The 2019 and 2020 teams had no true #1 WR, other than the consistent Tyler Boyd, which 2018 also had.
2.) The 2018 team still had Geno in his prime, as well as Carlos Dunlap. The 2019 and 2020 teams showed Geno began to decline and Dunlap all but disappear by 2020. These two, along with AJ Green, were the top talent on the team and highest compensated.
3.) The 2018 secondary had first picks Dennard, Kirkpatrick, and WJIII. The 2019 and 2020 roster had turds like BW Webb and LeShawn Sims starting.
4.) The players at DT for the 2018 roster had a 10-sack Geno Atkins, a solid Billings, and depth with Glasgow. Several of the players at DT last year were off the street.
5.) The 2018 roster had future HOF candidate Cody Core. Ok, that one was just for fun.
Your last statement that Marvin has been a much better coach than Taylor has been is 100% accurate. I just disagree with the statement about the 2018 roster. It was much better than that of 2019 and 2020.
Looking forward, I have a lot of positive vibes about this younger roster. Better depth, though still very thin at some areas. Better top tier talent (your playmakers). No "donkeys" at any starting position as far as I can see (although I have a lot of concerns about what Trae Waynes is going to look like). This all is why I keep referring to the 2021 team as "No Excuses". He has been allowed to overhaul the roster and Lou has been given a LOT of free agents that supposedly fit what he is trying to do on that side of the ball.
ZT was brought in largely for his acumen on the offensive side of the ball, and I think we will see a fairly high-powered offense. It will be up to the defense to take a significant step forward to make this team a legitimate playoff contender.
(07-09-2021, 01:13 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Bad take???
The dude has missed more games than he has played in and is going into his 3rd year now. There is no "lost season" excuse for a guy who still needs to learn technique and prove he is the answer at LT long term. People hammered A.J. Green for taking plays off last year in a "lost season" but Williams gets a pass??? No sir. Not at all. Guys drafted last season have more reps on the line now than Williams, and that is just unacceptable.
Willie Anderson played on lost season after lost season and played hurt, cause that's what elite level guys on the line do. That's what leaders do, that's what you expect out of a guy that is supposed to be the anchor on a line and a guy you took in the first round.
Jonah needs to show he is the answer and you can't show that on the rehab field.
If he plays 16 games this season and is capable, I'll be as happy as anyone and glad the light went on, but right now, he is a less sturdy Tyler Eifert and on the express lane to being another draft bust.
You are comparing Jonah's injury history (which is a legitimate gripe) to Green, who was healthy all season and was rated as one of the worst starting WRs in the league after being a perennial Pro Bowler?
I don't understand "injury hate". Some guys seem to get away with it (Eifert, and dare I say, Burrow?) and others get destroyed for it (Ross, Williams). It isn't a lack of talent or effort that got these guys injured. Sure, there are precautions players can take to strengthen a supposed weakness in their bodies (I remember when TJ had hamstring problems early on and swore by hot yoga as how he said they became stronger) but overall it is chalked up to bad luck.
Jonah is essentially in his contract year, as they will be deciding on his 5th year option after this season. I think what he has shown thus far when he HAS played shows that he is an ascending talent. He needs to have a full season of good health, but I think he will show he will earn that spot for a long time to come.
(07-09-2021, 10:34 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You call the 2018 a no-talent roster and compare it to the 2019 and 2020 teams. There are a few distinct differences that need to be noted before you give credit to Marvin for 6 wins and criticize ZT's 6 wins in two seasons.
1.) The 2018 roster still had AJ Green in his prime for more than half the season before being lost to injury. That offense was actually doing pretty well before he went down. The 2019 and 2020 teams had no true #1 WR, other than the consistent Tyler Boyd, which 2018 also had.
2.) The 2018 team still had Geno in his prime, as well as Carlos Dunlap. The 2019 and 2020 teams showed Geno began to decline and Dunlap all but disappear by 2020. These two, along with AJ Green, were the top talent on the team and highest compensated.
3.) The 2018 secondary had first picks Dennard, Kirkpatrick, and WJIII. The 2019 and 2020 roster had turds like BW Webb and LeShawn Sims starting.
4.) The players at DT for the 2018 roster had a 10-sack Geno Atkins, a solid Billings, and depth with Glasgow. Several of the players at DT last year were off the street.
5.) The 2018 roster had future HOF candidate Cody Core. Ok, that one was just for fun.
Your last statement that Marvin has been a much better coach than Taylor has been is 100% accurate. I just disagree with the statement about the 2018 roster. It was much better than that of 2019 and 2020.
Looking forward, I have a lot of positive vibes about this younger roster. Better depth, though still very thin at some areas. Better top tier talent (your playmakers). No "donkeys" at any starting position as far as I can see (although I have a lot of concerns about what Trae Waynes is going to look like). This all is why I keep referring to the 2021 team as "No Excuses". He has been allowed to overhaul the roster and Lou has been given a LOT of free agents that supposedly fit what he is trying to do on that side of the ball.
ZT was brought in largely for his acumen on the offensive side of the ball, and I think we will see a fairly high-powered offense. It will be up to the defense to take a significant step forward to make this team a legitimate playoff contender.
SH problem is you say 2021 and refer to this team as No Excuses and then you have other people on here who say this is basically his 1st year. The other 2 years were just for fun or something. Anyway, Zac has to show he can coach now. Lou has to show he can coach now. if this team doesnt win 9 games they need to be gone. Their first tier talent is playoff caliber talent. Lets just hope we don't get to the 2nd and 3rd tier like we did last year or this team may not win 5 games, because this roster is still pretty thin when it comes to depth.
A truly horrendous movie...but I did laugh a couple times. And Phoebe Cates? Yes, please.
I loved this movie as a kid lol. The actor from Drop Dead Fred actually played one of the funniest characters (Lord Flasheart) in the British comedy series Blackadder. I highly recommend it to anyone into their style of shows.
(07-09-2021, 10:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You are comparing Jonah's injury history (which is a legitimate gripe) to Green, who was healthy all season and was rated as one of the worst starting WRs in the league after being a perennial Pro Bowler?
I don't understand "injury hate". Some guys seem to get away with it (Eifert, and dare I say, Burrow?) and others get destroyed for it (Ross, Williams). It isn't a lack of talent or effort that got these guys injured. Sure, there are precautions players can take to strengthen a supposed weakness in their bodies (I remember when TJ had hamstring problems early on and swore by hot yoga as how he said they became stronger) but overall it is chalked up to bad luck.
Jonah is essentially in his contract year, as they will be deciding on his 5th year option after this season. I think what he has shown thus far when he HAS played shows that he is an ascending talent. He needs to have a full season of good health, but I think he will show he will earn that spot for a long time to come.
Green was coming off back to back seasons of injury and people were down on him for it after multiple seasons of not being hurt. Remember when Geno got hurt, came back looked terrible and then year two after injury looked great again?
vs
Jonah misses the entire rookie season with an injury from around the draft, and then misses a good portion of year two.
Nico said, why rush back in a lost season. And to that, my reply was there is no such thing as a lost season for a guy who has less reps in the NFL then guys drafted a year after him.
Green got hammered for taking plays off and not trying in the "lost season" after being reliable for year after year. His first seven years, he missed 9 games. 9 games in seven years!!! Meanwhile the future stud LT that is going to be the answer to the line and why we didn't need a tackle in the draft shouldn't rush back in a "lost season" even though he doesn't have enough reps to know if he is even any good.
That is my issue with the statement. If you dog Green, your dogged Ross, came down on Eifert, then you better be flinging it at Williams too. The guy needs pro reps and certainly could have gotten some his rookie year but "the team shut him down". Which with the Cordy Glenn nightmare that season, you really think the team was like nope, we don't need him to get out there and get some experience? I don't believe that for a second, that literal looks like team speak to cover for a guy who wasn't ready to go out there.
All in all, just keep this number in mind 22.
Williams has already missed 22 games in just two seasons as a professional offensive tackle. That’s not a great sign.
(07-09-2021, 11:46 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Green was coming off back to back seasons of injury and people were down on him for it after multiple seasons of not being hurt. Remember when Geno got hurt, came back looked terrible and then year two after injury looked great again?
vs
Jonah misses the entire rookie season with an injury from around the draft, and then misses a good portion of year two.
Nico said, why rush back in a lost season. And to that, my reply was there is no such thing as a lost season for a guy who has less reps in the NFL then guys drafted a year after him.
Green got hammered for taking plays off and not trying in the "lost season" after being reliable for year after year. His first seven years, he missed 9 games. 9 games in seven years!!! Meanwhile the future stud LT that is going to be the answer to the line and why we didn't need a tackle in the draft shouldn't rush back in a "lost season" even though he doesn't have enough reps to know if he is even any good.
That is my issue with the statement. If you dog Green, your dogged Ross, came down on Eifert, then you better be flinging it at Williams too. The guy needs pro reps and certainly could have gotten some his rookie year but "the team shut him down". Which with the Cordy Glenn nightmare that season, you really think the team was like nope, we don't need him to get out there and get some experience? I don't believe that for a second, that literal looks like team speak to cover for a guy who wasn't ready to go out there.
All in all, just keep this number in mind 22.
Williams has already missed 22 games in just two seasons as a professional offensive tackle. That’s not a great sign.
Best response yet. Well thought out and full of knowledge. Thank you Murdock.
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