Covid punishments....

[Big_Ern]

(07-28-2021, 10:22 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: In a year or two the Covid vaccine will still be a vaccine.

And I wrote we will never achieve herd immunity with a national vaccination rate of 50-60%. I never wrote anything about eradication. You’re the one who suggested it wouldn’t eradicate all coronaviruses. Probably because you don’t know what herd immunity is, either.

It’s difficult to impossible to have a conversation about vaccines with someone who doesn’t even know what one is. But, I’m going to try to explain what the CDC director said. We know some vaccinated people will still get infected because no vaccine is 100% effective. With an efficacy rate of 95% that means 5% of people vaccinated will still get infected despite vaccination and 95% won’t get infected.

So what you wrote previously about mRNA vaccines (which aren’t vaccines according to you) only reducing symptoms and not the spread of infections is false. Those efficacy numbers like 88% mean 88% of those vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine don’t get infected by delta variant. Which means the vaccine stops the spread to 88% of those people who get vaccinated. Or, out of 100 vaccinated people, 88 people won’t get infected and 12 will. So the Pfizer vaccine will stop the spread of the delta variant in 88 people out of 100 according to at least two studies. The reductions in hospitalizations and death is in the 90 something % range. Because even if you’re one of the 12% of vaccinated people with the Pfizer vaccine you will have partial immunity which reduces the severity of the illness.

The same break through infection and partial immunity response happens with childhood vaccinations, too, but I’m sure you’re unaware of this. I’ve seen a case of chickenpox that I couldn’t even recognize as chickenpox clinically because of the partial immunity reducing the characteristic rash to almost nothing. I had to order a lab to confirm my suspicion which is not usually needed to diagnose chicken pox.  

So the CDC director is talking about the 5-12% of kids who were vaccinated, but still got infected which we know will happen based upon the efficacy rates. She isn’t talking about the 88-95% who did not get infected because they were vaccinated with a vaccine. So if we have a hypothetical high school of 1,000 students with a 100% vaccination rate, the Pfizer vaccine will “stop the spread” to 880-950 students. Which means 50-120 students could still get infected.

Although I find your lack of knowledge or understanding of even the basics frustrating, I do admire your confidence because you don’t let it prevent you from spreading misinformation that is potentially dangerous to others’ health during the pandemic.

I never read your whole posts, you have way too much time. But I know covid is not going away ever and will be like a common cold one day in the future. Think what you want. 

[bengaloo]

(07-26-2021, 08:31 AM)AussieBengal Wrote: Sydney is currently experiencing a Delta outbreak and is in the middle of a lockdown, we are getting deaths from this variant including young people which we haven't had here before. We are getting hospitalisations with a higher percentage of younger people as well. Not one person who is fully vaccinated has been hospitalised in this outbreak.
This variant has been much more contagious, in previous outbreaks roughly 30% of household contacts would contract the virus, this outbreak is very close to 100% of household contact contracting the virus.

We are having this outbreak and lockdown due to our poor vaccine rollout.

I've heard that, and I've heard the opposite of that. What do we believe though? Thats the hard part. In the UK, its their actual government data that shows the delta cases make up almost all new cases, but hospitalization rates are basically flatlined down to near zero. News anchors speak differently about it however. Do we trust the government data that they list on their websites, or news anchors, or the WHO, etc? And its been this way the entire time. The story changes depending on which news or government people are telling it. Lots of misinformation and back tracking this entire time and that is a big part of the problem. Its dividing people to the point where you have people, including in this very thread who are wishing death upon others over all this, like grampholic basically did. I mean seriously, wishing death upon others over a vaccine for a virus with a 99% survival rate? This is how low we've sunk, forreal? Its sad to see. 

But to further drive home my point about the delta strain, the CDC director is now saying vaccinated people can get it, and transmit it whether they are vaccinated or not, and now its more of this, which is a direct quote from her PC conference yesterday “This new science is worrisome, and unfortunately warrants an update to our recommendation.”


So now what? The goal posts are about to move again, but the NFL has already put in place some harsh punishments for something they really know nothing about and everyone including the medical community is still learning about. Do they change the rules/punishments if it turns out Pfizer isnt effective on Delta? Does Pfizer not being as effective on Delta inspire more confidence for people to get another different vaccine for a virus that still has a 99% survival rate even after they have already had a vaccine for it that was supposed to work? I dont think it does for a lot of people. I think creates more doubt and less trust in "the science".  How about on the CDC website, it says there were just about 10k deaths the entire time from covid with people who didnt already have a serious underlying condition. 30-50k people die from the common flu every year. This is nothing new. 2018 there was a bad one. My grandpa got it and it was harder on him than covid was, and he's almost 98 right now. He survived covid and the nasty flu of 2018 that killed something like 80,000 ppls back then.  


The bottom line is that I think the NFL and many others are making way too harsh punishments for something they dont know enough about yet and for something they keep moving the goal posts for. Why not just cancel season and go hide in a bunker... 

[grampahol]

(07-28-2021, 11:39 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: I never read your whole posts, you have way too much time. But I know covid is not going away ever and will be like a common cold one day in the future. Think what you want. 

Common cold doesn't kill half million people in less than a year in the US. If it did we'd have a population of around 12.. 

[AussieBengal]

(07-28-2021, 09:58 AM)jwalker3853 Wrote: All choices have ripple effects.   When you boil it down, this is no different.   The impact of my choices on you or anyone else does not dismiss or over ride my right to make that choice.   If there are consequences to making such a choice - fine - but it is still my right to make that choice.  

And it is my right to think people making that choice are selfish.

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 11:52 AM)grampahol Wrote: Common cold doesn't kill half million people in less than a year in the US. If it did we'd have a population of around 12.. 

I personally dont believe covid killed nearly as many people as per reported. I would, but not when I have very trustworthy, honest people who work in hospitals who have told me directly that they were putting covid down as cause of death for every death whether it was covid or not. There have been reports of that everywhere, and I've heard it with my own ears from the people who work there and have seen it with their own eyes and have no reason to lie about it. They make nothing from lying about that, except maybe to have death wished upon them from certain folks of course. Unlike the pharm industry people and all the government peoples and doctors who get massive kickbacks from the pharm industry, one of the riches and most corrupt industries in the world. The folks getting very wealthy from this are the ones pushing the fear data. Doesnt that bother you even a little and make you wonder even at all? Do you really trust the pharm industry, biased news outlets and corrupt government officials so much you'd wish death upon people who dont want a vaccine for a virus that has a 99% survival rate? Just curious. 

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 11:52 AM)grampahol Wrote: Common cold doesn't kill half million people in less than a year in the US. If it did we'd have a population of around 12.. 

Not for nothing, but I don't know that Covid 19 does either. I know for a fact I have had 1 family member who died with Covid, but not from Covid, who was counted as a Covid death. That tells me when I see figures like flu deaths, etc., declining, there is some funny math involved, which tends to follow the money. Not that I'm downplaying the disease, but it's pretty apparent numbers are skewed. 

[AussieBengal]

(07-28-2021, 10:57 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: in this case though if the vax is worth anything then anyone with it does not have to worry about who doesnt have it.

if your still worried then you simply dont trust the vax as it is.

That is not how this works though, the virus spreading through unvaccinated people can lead to mutations that create a variant that is resistant to the vaccines for example. There are also many people who can not have a vaccine through medical reasons, unvaccinated people put these people at risk though. Your post is illogical.

[Big_Ern]

(07-28-2021, 11:52 AM)grampahol Wrote: Common cold doesn't kill half million people in less than a year in the US. If it did we'd have a population of around 12.. 

I know. Covid is very serious. All of this back and forth was from me saying covid will always be around. The other poster thinks vaccines can completely eradicate it 

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 12:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Not for nothing, but I don't know that Covid 19 does either. I know for a fact I have had 1 family member who died with Covid, but not from Covid, who was counted as a Covid death. That tells me when I see figures like flu deaths, etc., declining, there is some funny math involved, which tends to follow the money. Not that I'm downplaying the disease, but it's pretty apparent numbers are skewed. 

Exactly. The numbers are being skewed and have been the whole time. And I'm not a covid denier or anything like that at all. Ive just watched and listened to all sides this entire time and there are plenty of things that just dont add up. And its sad because this is human life we are dealing with. But money has more value than life to a lot of people in this world anymore. We should know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth about something like this, but it obviously and sadly hasnt been that way.

[AussieBengal]

(07-28-2021, 11:48 AM)bengaloo Wrote: I've heard that, and I've heard the opposite of that. What do we believe though? Thats the hard part. In the UK, its their actual government data that shows the delta cases make up almost all new cases, but hospitalization rates are basically flatlined down to near zero. News anchors speak differently about it however. Do we trust the government data that they list on their websites, or news anchors, or the WHO, etc? And its been this way the entire time. The story changes depending on which news or government people are telling it. Lots of misinformation and back tracking this entire time and that is a big part of the problem. Its dividing people to the point where you have people, including in this very thread who are wishing death upon others over all this, like grampholic basically did. I mean seriously, wishing death upon others over a vaccine for a virus with a 99% survival rate? This is how low we've sunk, forreal? Its sad to see. 

But to further drive home my point about the delta strain, the CDC director is now saying vaccinated people can get it, and transmit it whether they are vaccinated or not, and now its more of this, which is a direct quote from her PC conference yesterday “This new science is worrisome, and unfortunately warrants an update to our recommendation.”


So now what? The goal posts are about to move again, but the NFL has already put in place some harsh punishments for something they really know nothing about and everyone including the medical community is still learning about. Do they change the rules/punishments if it turns out Pfizer isnt effective on Delta? Does Pfizer not being as effective on Delta inspire more confidence for people to get another different vaccine for a virus that still has a 99% survival rate even after they have already had a vaccine for it that was supposed to work? I dont think it does for a lot of people. I think creates more doubt and less trust in "the science".  How about on the CDC website, it says there were just about 10k deaths the entire time from covid with people who didnt already have a serious underlying condition. 30-50k people die from the common flu every year. This is nothing new. 2018 there was a bad one. My grandpa got it and it was harder on him than covid was, and he's almost 98 right now. He survived covid and the nasty flu of 2018 that killed something like 80,000 ppls back then.  


The bottom line is that I think the NFL and many others are making way too harsh punishments for something they dont know enough about yet and for something they keep moving the goal posts for. Why not just cancel season and go hide in a bunker... 

Your use of data is extremely poor, you excluded all the people with underlying conditions in the covid data and then compared it the flu deaths for a year but didn't exclude the people with underlying conditions that the flu killed. It is this misuse of data that creates the situation we now have.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-23-2021, 01:41 PM)Tony Wrote: So you agree with forcing someone into taking something they don't want put in their body? Good grief. This world is @#%$;*..

No.

I agree with there being consequences based on your decisions, and I agree that businesses should get to set certain restrictions based on safety.

Heck, you have some businesses who require you to wear a uniform. If you don't wear the uniform, they can fire you.
Some businesses (e.g. hospitals) can require you to get a flu shot if you are going to work in the hospital.
Most companies have requirements around hygene.

The NFL is not even requiring that everyone get vaccinated, although they could.
They are simply saying if you choose not to, here are the consequences and procedures if you make that choice.
Seems pretty fair to me.

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 12:08 PM)AussieBengal Wrote: That is not how this works though, the virus spreading through unvaccinated people can lead to mutations that create a variant that is resistant to the vaccines for example. There are also many people who can not have a vaccine through medical reasons, unvaccinated people put these people at risk though. Your post is illogical.

The virus spreading through vaccinated people can also cause mutations. The vaccines can cause mutations. Evolution is a neat thing. Sometimes bad sometimes good but interesting nonetheless. 

[AussieBengal]

I will say I am in a very bad mood today, so sorry if my replies came across blunt. Our lockdown just got extended for another 4 weeks and I am starting to struggle with it mentally.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-22-2021, 07:27 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Yikes! This sounds like something a villainous dictator would say while twirling his mustache.

Hate to break it to you, but many countries have more restrictions than the US does, and many are considered safer and still have sufficient freedoms to live their lives fine.
The reality is too many Americans worry too much about their "freedoms" instead of actually caring about other people's health and safety. They only care about it if it directly impacts them.

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 12:15 PM)AussieBengal Wrote: Your use of data is extremely poor, you excluded all the people with underlying conditions in the covid data and then compared it the flu deaths for a year but didn't exclude the people with underlying conditions that the flu killed. It is this misuse of data that creates the situation we now have.

Well I should've been more clear. Every year the flu kills thousands of people and most of them are elderly or folks with preexisting, underlying conditions. I'm well aware of that. Always have been actually. I'm around a lot of elderly and have taken care of my grandparents affairs for years now. I was cautious during flu season way before covid was a thing. Followed all the recommendations. Wash hands 30 seconds with soap, dont touch face, etc. Working with elderly has made me more cautious during flu season for sure. Which is part of why all the covid scare isnt adding up for me. We are being lied to by someone. I'm not saying I know who, but its obvious something is not right with all this. 

[*ochocincos*]

(07-22-2021, 07:34 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Teams should just play with what they've got healthy and try to win. Ya never know what the outcome might be and fans will show up.

I really don't see why a games needs to be cancelled. So what if a few players have to play both ways.

It would really be interesting to see some offensive/defensive players having to play on the other side.
It would probably be a disaster lol.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 11:39 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: I never read your whole posts, you have way too much time. But I know covid is not going away ever and will be like a common cold one day in the future. Think what you want. 

No shit, Sherlock.

Handing out vaccine misinformation when you don’t even what a vaccine is, is like telling me which truck I should buy when you don’t even know what a truck is.

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-28-2021, 12:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hate to break it to you, but many countries have more restrictions than the US does, and many are considered safer and still have sufficient freedoms to live their lives fine.
The reality is too many Americans too much about their "freedoms" instead of actually caring about other people's health and safety. They only care about it if it directly impacts them.

My point was that evil dictators in the past have used the safety of the people as a reason for some pretty terrible stuff. Nazi Germany was convinced that by eradicating the Jews they were doing what was best for the people and financial security. It was safer without the Jews.

No, I’m not saying the vaccine is like genocide, just saying “we should disregard freedoms to do X for the safety of the people” has been problematic before.

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 12:27 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: No shit, Sherlock.

Handing out vaccine misinformation when you don’t even what a vaccine is, is like telling me which truck I should buy when you don’t even know what a truck is.

I dont think most people will be calling it a vaccine much longer honestly. Its going to be viewed as the covid shot, and people will get it yearly to protect from mutations until we are 100% certain that the mutations are weakening and not getting stronger. 

[*ochocincos*]

(07-28-2021, 12:22 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Well I should've been more clear. Every year the flu kills thousands of people and most of them are elderly or folks with preexisting, underlying conditions. I'm well aware of that. Always have been actually. I'm around a lot of elderly and have taken care of my grandparents affairs for years now. I was cautious during flu season way before covid was a thing. Followed all the recommendations. Wash hands 30 seconds with soap, dont touch face, etc. Working with elderly has made me more cautious during flu season for sure. Which is part of why all the covid scare isnt adding up for me. We are being lied to by someone. I'm not saying I know who, but its obvious something is not right with all this. 

The yearly flu deaths in the US vary between 12,000 and 61,000 for the past decade. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_influenza_statistics_by_flu_season

The reason COVID is considered so much worse is because the number of deaths is considered so much worse (10x-20x).
In 2020, approx. 375,000 deaths in the US had COVID as a contributing factor.
So far in 2021, another 236,000 have occurred.

That's quite a substantial jump over the number from the seasonal flu.