Brown Family Dynamics

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 12:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It appears you've covered every single year from 1980 through 1991.  But for Mike you've ommited 1992-2004 in it's enitirity, all of 2006-2008, 2010 and 2011, and all of 2016-2020. 

I would question why you've decided to do this, but I think we all know this answer.  

Because those teams sucked. I've never said he never had crap teams, all I'm saying is the FO, MB if you will, has also put together some pretty good teams with lots of talent. They didn't get it done for one reason or the other. 

[jwalker3853]

(07-28-2021, 12:31 PM)Sled21 Wrote: IF Marvin said that then shame on him as Head Coach, because it's HIS job to set the culture in the locker room. 

Yep.   Definitely a poor look for Marvin if that was what was said.    I do agree that it was Marvin's job to set the culture in the locker room, I also think its the job of either the GM or leadership (hard to tell the difference in this case despite Tobin's title) to set the culture for the coaches/team.  

We all suspect / know indirectly (as much as we can from outside) Mike is more involved at all levels then he should be.    That being the case, I think he shares more of the blame overall.    Not letting the coaches (Marvin included) or players off the hook by any means as they all share in the blame.   I just think that due to Mike's heavy involvement - at least in the past - that he deserves more then he would normally receive.  

[*ochocincos*]

(07-26-2021, 06:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Did he really say that?  Being an NFL owner and GM who doesn't want to do free agency is like being a dentist who doesn't want to look in people's mouths. 

I think another (more accurate?) analogy is someone who still uses a regular map to navigate instead of using today's GPS technology.
He's basically stuck in his ways and prefers to do things a certain old-school way.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-28-2021, 12:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: They weren't good enough to win in the playoffs.  If they were good enough to win in the playoffs then, well, they would have won in the playoffs.  I mean, seriously, what are we even doing here?

Again, if you're blaming the coaches and players then you're blaming Mike Brown too.  He's was in charge of choosing those coaches and players.  If he had done his job better, he wouldn't have built a team where those people would have failed him in the postseason.

If you blame Marvin then you're blaming Mike.  He hired Marvin; he elected to keep Marvin for 16 years.  If you're blaming the players, you're blaming Mike.  He either specifically chose those players himself, or he chose the people who chose the wrong players.  No matter what route you take in the blame game, he's going to be at the top of the pyramid.

Yep

(07-28-2021, 12:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Uh. They can't be "good enough to win in the playoffs" if they didn't win in the playoffs. The correct phrase would be "not good enough to win in the playoffs". They were good enough to get to the playoffs, but that's it. 

Exactly

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2021, 02:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think another (more accurate?) analogy is someone who still uses a regular map to navigate instead of using today's GPS technology.
He's basically stuck in his ways and prefers to do things a certain old-school way.

Maybe.  The point is he gets the pay and title of GM while openly complaining about the basic requirements and demands of the job.  Actually, he's like all of us, I guess. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2021, 12:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Uh. They can't be "good enough to win in the playoffs" if they didn't win in the playoffs. The correct phrase would be "not good enough to win in the playoffs". They were good enough to get to the playoffs, but that's it. 

Reminds me of when a team would sign Sam Bradford and optimistic fans would say he's a Super Bowl-caliber QB.  Sure the guy has talent and upside and football is a team game but can a QB who never had a winning season BE super bowl caliber?  

Maybe it's more like every song that ever existed having that one person who says it shoulda been a smash hit.   

[*ochocincos*]

(07-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe.  The point is he gets the pay and title of GM while openly complaining about the basic requirements and demands of the job.  Actually, he's like all of us, I guess. 

I think he just believes it was better/easier to build a competitive team prior to the implementation of free agency.
He believes you should live and die by the players you draft.
It's actually kind of funny given how small the scouting department is and how few really good players they've gotten from the draft in recent years.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-28-2021, 03:03 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Reminds me of when a team would sign Sam Bradford and optimistic fans would say he's a Super Bowl-caliber QB.  Sure the guy has talent and upside and football is a team game but can a QB who never had a winning season BE super bowl caliber?  

Maybe it's more like every song that ever existed having that one person who says it shoulda been a smash hit.   

Slow down now.

Bradford's first year in the league was pretty good, year 2, had a high ankle sprain, year 3 good again, year 4 blew out his knee running from pressure, and injured it again the following year and poof that was it, traded to Philly the following year, and at that point, I don't think anyone thought he was a Sb caliber QB any longer.

also suffered from multiple OC's. So it's a what could have been situation as the team stunk for the prior 10 years before drafting him. 

[Whatever]

(07-28-2021, 03:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think he just believes it was better/easier to build a competitive team prior to the implementation of free agency.
He believes you should live and die by the players you draft.
It's actually kind of funny given how small the scouting department is and how few really good players they've gotten from the draft in recent years.

Possible, but it wasn't one of the reasons he gave.  His first thought is that he felt it was better for the fans if guys played for one team their entire careers. The other big point was that he dislikes the way player salaries are extremely top heavy now with a small handful of players eating up the majority of each team's spending and that player pay was a lot more evenly divided pre FA.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-28-2021, 05:27 PM)Whatever Wrote: Possible, but it wasn't one of the reasons he gave.  His first thought is that he felt it was better for the fans if guys played for one team their entire careers. The other big point was that he dislikes the way player salaries are extremely top heavy now with a small handful of players eating up the majority of each team's spending and that player pay was a lot more evenly divided pre FA.

Meh. Yes and no.
It may help to keep track of the players and care about the players, but on the flip side a team could have a sequence of bad drafts and then be stuck with those players.

I do understand Mike's point that the top guys get a crazy higher amount of the cap compared to their colleagues, but that's the same in basically every industry. You pay a premium for top talent. I could see the league want to start to put a cap on individual player salaries (e.g. NBA), but that would probably not fly with the NFLPA.

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2021, 05:03 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Slow down now.

Bradford's first year in the league was pretty good, year 2, had a high ankle sprain, year 3 good again, year 4 blew out his knee running from pressure, and injured it again the following year and poof that was it, traded to Philly the following year, and at that point, I don't think anyone thought he was a Sb caliber QB any longer.

also suffered from multiple OC's. So it's a what could have been situation as the team stunk for the prior 10 years before drafting him. 

That's the kind of talk that got him like 150 million bucks for 15 wins or so. 

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 01:52 PM)jwalker3853 Wrote: Yep.   Definitely a poor look for Marvin if that was what was said.    I do agree that it was Marvin's job to set the culture in the locker room, I also think its the job of either the GM or leadership (hard to tell the difference in this case despite Tobin's title) to set the culture for the coaches/team.  

We all suspect / know indirectly (as much as we can from outside) Mike is more involved at all levels then he should be.  That being the case, I think he shares more of the blame overall.    Not letting the coaches (Marvin included) or players off the hook by any means as they all share in the blame.   I just think that due to Mike's heavy involvement - at least in the past - that he deserves more then he would normally receive.  

That may well have been the case in years past. I don't really believe it's the case anymore, even though people will continue to dump on him for everything that goes wrong. I think for the last couple of years MB is just the old guy owner putting around in his golf cart, acting like he's still part of things, when in reality Katie is running the show. 

[jwalker3853]

(07-29-2021, 08:46 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That may well have been the case in years past. I don't really believe it's the case anymore, even though people will continue to dump on him for everything that goes wrong. I think for the last couple of years MB is just the old guy owner putting around in his golf cart, acting like he's still part of things, when in reality Katie is running the show. 

That's fair.   I want to believe it's not the case any longer.   However, when Mike makes comments about his granddaughter being the only one not afraid of him when it comes to things like the Ring of Honer, it makes me cringe. 

However, I do believe you are right and that Mike is having less to do with the day to day operations and Katie is now in charge.  

[*Nately120*]

(07-29-2021, 12:35 PM)jwalker3853 Wrote: That's fair.   I want to believe it's not the case any longer.   However, when Mike makes comments about his granddaughter being the only one not afraid of him when it comes to things like the Ring of Honer, it makes me cringe. 

However, I do believe you are right and that Mike is having less to do with the day to day operations and Katie is now in charge.  

If that's the case it seems strange MB is willing to give his granddaughter credit for doing stuff but continues to deny Katie credit for being the president/GM/decider when she's putting in the work. 

[jwalker3853]

(07-29-2021, 04:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If that's the case it seems strange MB is willing to give his granddaughter credit for doing stuff but continues to deny Katie credit for being the president/GM/decider when she's putting in the work. 

Hard to say the rationale on that one.    I've always found that parents "soften up" some with their grandkids vs. their own kids.   Maybe Mike's actions is more Grandpa being nicer to his grand daughter vs. his own daughter.     Dunno.  

If he has turned the reigns over the Katie, he should also give her the title as well.   Could be he is giving her control over some things while maintaining the final call on others?   I doubt we'll ever really know.

[*Nately120*]

(07-29-2021, 05:22 PM)jwalker3853 Wrote: Hard to say the rationale on that one.    I've always found that parents "soften up" some with their grandkids vs. their own kids.   Maybe Mike's actions is more Grandpa being nicer to his grand daughter vs. his own daughter.     Dunno.  

If he has turned the reigns over the Katie, he should also give her the title as well.   Could be he is giving her control over some things while maintaining the final call on others?     I doubt we'll ever really know.

I'd say he's still in charge, unless he's really just let Katie hire ZT and then decided to take the blame for it but then blame fans who wanted to move on from Marvin for it.  The guy seems like he's slowly come around to certain aspects of modern football, but I don't see anything to convince me that he's not still in charge.

Again, I don't know the guy but he seems to have a reputation as a decent dude who loves his family and that doesn't jive with naming himself the GM when he could admit his daughter is the GM and and decision maker and get a nice tax break and some positive adulation for the team and Katie.  

[bengals67]

(07-28-2021, 09:31 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Would an indoor facility have caused our players to put some effort on the field for the San Diego game? Would full time scouts have kept Burfict and Pacman from imploding at the end of the Pittsburgh game, because at that time they were a couple of the best at their positions? Would any of that kept Kimo from destroying Palmer's knee?  I want MB to retire as much as anyone, and I thought Marvin stayed longer than he should have, but the point remains. The Front Office assembled playoff teams with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs many times, and those teams just did not perform. Blaming Brown and not the players and coaches is lazy.

"Lazy".... wow!

Lots of lazy members on this board I guess!

ps- I think calling Mike lazy is a better use of that term  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-29-2021, 09:28 PM)bengals67 Wrote: "Lazy".... wow!

Lots of lazy members on this board I guess!

ps- I think calling Mike lazy is a better use of that term  

I think stubborn is the most apt and succinct way to describe Mike Brown.

[*Nately120*]

(07-29-2021, 09:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I think stubborn is the most apt and succinct way to describe Mike Brown.

I think it has more to do with the fact that he doesn't have to answer to anyone other than himself.  If Mike Brown had a job where he could actually get fired I think he'd be able to fall in line and keep his business in closer proximity in practice to his competitors and colleagues.

It's hard to compare Mike Brown to a normal person, because Mike Brown was born to hold a job/title.  He's more like a prince or king than a guy who runs a pizza shop, or something.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-29-2021, 10:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think it has more to do with the fact that he doesn't have to answer to anyone other than himself.  If Mike Brown had a job where he could actually get fired I think he'd be able to fall in line and keep his business in closer proximity in practice to his competitors and colleagues.

Right, but if you’re trying to describe him in one word I think stubborn is it. From being stuck in the past, to holding onto coaches and players too long, to not caring what fans think even if change could benefit him , etc. He’s just an incredibly stubborn individual.