Jackson Carman At Bottom Of Depth Chart

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 11:33 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: We needed another weapon, yes. We didn’t need an elite top 5 pick. All we needed was a Sanu type.

What we REALLY needed was an elite o-lineman through free agency, or the best o-lineman in the draft. You’re one of these guys who thinks Boyd and Higgins aren’t good enough as a 1-2 with a good o-line, and Burrow slinging the ball, which is insane. But I get it, you’re insane.

You are also a little sad as well. You keep referencing something I never said. Like you think I want to keep zac Taylor around..

If that is your only counter argument, I’m just going to ignore you. Because it’s actually sad. And it gives me a headache

Boyd is better than Sanu, have a headache over that...

[Frank Booth]

(08-08-2021, 11:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Boyd is better than Sanu, have a headache over that...

Most sane and logical thing I’ve ever read from you

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 11:39 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Most sane and logical thing I’ve ever read from you

Its all good man, have a great night.

[Frank Booth]

(08-08-2021, 11:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:

Its all good man, have a great night.

Quit being nice

We’re in an argument here!

[tms]

Don't mind me, I gotta toot my own horn here (insofar as that can be done in Week 2 of TC)...

I'm a massive draftnik and I was Team Penei from the start. Just took so much abuse and heard countless strange arguments for Chase that didn't make any sense to me then, and make even less sense to me now (e.g. he'll protect Burrow by... running go routes).

Mind you, I'm fully on board with Ja'Marr now. He's our guy and I'm behind him all the way. I just have to confess that I didn't want him then. In fact, I preferred TMJ. I thought Marshall had a skillset that was easily in the same category and more transferable to the pros (e.g. not as reliant on his hands to beat the press); his athleticism was absolutely comparable; he's bigger, runs like a deer, played the F and the X in Brady's offense; he was even on the field last year (for part of it anyway); and you wouldn't have to mortgage the Top 5 farm to get him. In the end we had a chance to land Sewell and Marshall- but we didn't. So be it.

Turns out Sewell is having a fantastic camp in Detroit. Beyond his skills, he's bringing the kind of charisma, energy and joy that I thought we sorely lacked up front with our team (and still do). He's having good days and bad days, of course, he's in an ongoing war with Okwara, but he's loving it. And he's cemented himself as the Lions' starting RT, on a line that is actually quite strong. I mean, their offense lacks weapons and they're in the midst of an extensive rebuild in Detroit. But with that kind of a foundation inside, I figure they're bound to surprise. Good for them.

More importantly, Marshall looks super in Carolina. Whatever injury plagued him pre-draft has clearly been worked out. He's already drawn favorable comps to Muhsin Muhammad, been pegged to start in the slot, and taken some WR2 reps over the past few days in place of Robby Anderson. In other words, in two weeks he's already shown the aptitude to transition seamlessly from inside to outside. It helps that he has Brady in Carolina with him, don't get me wrong, but what a force he could yet become.

Of course, we haven't played a game yet lol. That much is true. And we didn't know whether Marshall was going to be there at 38, forget about 46. That much is also true. But as of right now, it's clear that the Sewell/Marshall combo would be much preferred to our JC pennies (sorry, I had to lol). Chase looks great to me, he's obviously a major asset. The Chase/Sewell debate is done, and I lost. I can live with it. But Pollack's had to spend weeks playing games to motivate Carman... that is a much bigger issue. I'm not gonna mince words here: it is f cringeworthy. At a bare minimum it suggests that dude does not have the the right focus for this league, let alone for an R2. No coach should have to motivate their prized draft picks in camp. This is not Triple-A; this is a major league team.

I mean, we shouldn't be wasting our time bringing him up to speed because the Bengals (of all teams) were in no position to do that after last year's debacle. We were in no position to draft a 'project', neither in terms of skillset nor attitude. He was sold to the public as a diamond in the rough plug & play National Champ, despite the feelings of the draft community. And what do you know, to this point he's shown zilch. In fact, he's already been supplanted on the depth chart by the OT we drafted two rounds later. It's abominable, it's unacceptable. And the only solace I can take from this nightmare is the fact that my dudes have been lighting it up in Detroit and Charlotte, respectively lol. So that's what I'ma do.

Meanwhile, Carman needs to wake up and smell the coffee. And if he doesn't start in Week 1, somebody needs to pay the price. There needs to be accountability for that kind of error. Whoever was responsible for going off the board at 46- when it was both unnecessary and unwise for this team to do so- needs to face the consequences. I don't want to hear their voice in the war room again.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(08-08-2021, 10:02 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Relax, pal

I said “a percentage” which doesn’t mean everyone.

To be frank, most of the people who were adamant for Chase over Sewell haven’t really been on the boards since the draft. Except for that Nicomo poster.

The people who wanted Sewell are the ones still on here posting every day, while the “burrow needs weapons more than an o-line” crowd just up and vanished

Which says something

You are Frank.

I wanted Sewell, but we should wait and see how Carman and Sewell do during the year before I'll say much. I do expect Chase to be very solid either way.

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2021, 02:30 AM)tms Wrote: But Pollack's had to spend weeks playing games to motivate Carman... that is a much bigger issue. I'm not gonna mince words here: it is f cringeworthy. At a bare minimum it suggests that dude does not have the the right focus for this league, let alone for an R2. No coach should have to motivate their prized draft picks in camp. This is not Triple-A; this is a major league team.

Link to support this claim that Carman lacks motivation.  Who has said this is his problem?

You claim to be a "draftnick" so tell me how many second round picks usually start opening day and how many "do not have the right focus for the league"?  I don't claim to be an expert like you, but I bet I could provide a VERY long list of great NFL players who did not start opening day as a rookie.

[Memphis_Bengal]

Have not read all the posts so don't know if it has been mentioned but I was big on Trey Smith pre draft. Being a Vols fan I saw him dominate while at Tennessee. He has had a great start to camp and is now projected as a starting Guard in KC.

[Dr.Z]

(08-08-2021, 11:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Quit being nice

We’re in an argument here!

Lol !
Regarding your earlier post , and for posterity , I am still here as a “team Chase” guy. Although I still stand by it and don’t expect to have to do so, I’ll admit I was wrong if it is ever to be proven to be so in hindsight. At draft time, I felt both Chase and Slater helped more for our immediate needs, although there’s no denying Sewell’s intriguing ceiling.

[Bengalitis]

(07-29-2021, 06:28 PM)GodFather Wrote: Looks like those Jackson fans who said he was going to be a big upgrade this year got hit with a dose of reality. Articles I read said he has alot of work ahead of him transitioning to NFL guard.

So this was the answer to the offensive line issues this offseason in draft huh?

Our team should be an expert by now to know that #1 draft picks hardly work out on their first season in action, whether by injury or just not living up to the high pick selection.

Jonah W, Ross, Price, etc.   Out of good measure, we should just play Chase sporadically so he doesnt get the 1st year shock/injury.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(08-09-2021, 10:11 AM)Memphis_Bengal Wrote: Have not read all the posts so don't know if it has been mentioned but I was big on Trey Smith pre draft.

I don't think you being big on Trey Smith pre-draft has been mentioned.

HTH.

[Memphis_Bengal]

(08-09-2021, 10:53 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I don't think you being big on Trey Smith pre-draft has been mentioned.

HTH.

lol...ok poorly worded. I didn't know if Trey Smith's success at Chiefs camp has been mentioned. 

[Joelist]

Are we really going down the whole stupid “Sewell/Chase” rabbit hole again? The main thing I did not like about this “debate” was how it got out of hand with condescending and insulting posts from some on the Sewell side. Please let’s not go there again.

Chase is here and looks very good. Carman will be the RG - right now it is camp and he is learning the NFL life and how to play the new position. Both D’Ante Smith and Trey Hill have looked good at different times, so the potential is showing there. Right now we have some minor dings in the Guard room (Spain for one) which is leading to some of the different combos running out there.

My main thing right now is that by the end of the first preseason game they need to have settled on who the first and second OLs are. Otherwise we will not have sufficient practice snaps to build cohesion before live play.

[Luvnit2]

(08-08-2021, 04:52 PM)GodFather Wrote: That’s ridiculous. If a player is a day one starter from draft he will only get better in time. To say Jackson will give you more value is a pipe dream. He could or couldn’t you just don’t know until the season starts.

This team isn’t in a position to think of building up players for tomorrow when Addressing and changes need to be done today!

Wasn't Price a day 1 starter? How did that work out?

[GodFather]

(08-08-2021, 11:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For sure, the thing is Reiff is a good addition. Same with the players I mention earlier that all the negs won't even speak about.

For sure, love the Reiff pick up. Let’s hope this line is able to protect our biggest asset this season!

[jj22]

(08-09-2021, 11:02 AM)Joelist Wrote:  
Chase is here and looks very good.  

If we are going to be honest. Chase has struggled (even Hobspin noted). Obviously the whole offense has, but Chase has struggled to separate and I've read has been slow in his route running.

Camp Notebook: Joe Burrow rebounds in Bengals training camp with a stellar day

Quote:Chase has had his struggles, too, early on. He's dropped some balls, including one right before team when Burrow hit him in stride running a go against air. 

And it sounds like Smith is passing Carman on the depth chart.

[tms]

(08-09-2021, 08:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Link to support this claim that Carman lacks motivation.  Who has said this is his problem?

You claim to be a "draftnick" so tell me how many second round picks usually start opening day and how many "do not have the right focus for the league"?  I don't claim to be an expert like you, but I bet I could provide a VERY long list of great NFL players who did not start opening day as a rookie.

Are you from the straw man factory? We were looking for you. We were running out of supplies to protect our we-don't-ever-need-to-do-anything crops, and you came through like divine intervention. Nice to see.

Your two questions can sort of be grouped together. If motivation is not his problem, then he's not good enough. Would that not be worse? Given the depth of the draft class, we were promised somebody who would be good enough and somebody who would be slotted in there right now. Urgency was the word of the day. This wasn't a 'project' draft for us, we did not have that luxury. Our QB had had his knee theismann'd, and we were told that we would do everything in our power to protect him from this day forward (FA, draft and coach). Literally nobody was saying, "We're gonna snag a backup guard in R2 and see what happens a few years down the road"- there would have been fireworks. That was not the bargain. Nobody was talking about a backup IOL at his presser. So motivation would be the lesser of the two evils here. You don't want him not being good enough, as it would imply outright negligence in view of the "deepest draft class" in recent memory.

So ok, they chose Carman as their horse, now they gotta ride him. Camp started with the "you have to earn it!" rhetoric. Which is all well and good, even intuitive, but I don't hear such an emphasis being placed on "earning" it in... Vegas with Leatherwood, KC with Creed (and Trey Smith for that matter), NY with AVT, Denver with Meinerz, Zim with Wyatt Davis, on down the line, whether they're starting or not. This is professional football, after all. These draft picks needn't be reminded of having to earn it if they have their head screwed on straight. Hell, I don't even see them talking about that in Chicago with Teven, who hasn't taken a rep yet- or Borom, who's been his replacement. The mere fact that you're hearing about it over and over in Cincinnati is not a good sign. Of course it implies motivation issues.

Which is only reinforced by the fact that they played MICHAEL FREAKING JORDAN with the starters yesterday. Is that part of the master plan to protect Joe too? To move the same guy who literally apologized to Burrow for being bull-rushed so bad by J Allen that Burrow had to spend the next 8 months in recovery, just to the other side of the line? No, they're running out of wrenches in the toolkit and resorting to this. It's not like Carman is waiting behind Alan Faneca. You can't even argue they're showing him "tough love" since his rookie peer was out there with the starters on the other side. So feel free turn and look the other way if you want to, but it would just be more of the same. 

They needed a plug and play, we were promised a plug and play, and he's been anything but a plug and play. That's evident. He's sliding on the depth chart before playing in any games. That's also evident. So while I appreciate your straw men, you should save them for next April when they can be of better use. 

[PDub80]

I posted a way longer version of this in the D'Ante Smith thread....

Why are Bengals fans holding Jackson and Smith to a higher standard than the NFL vets who are in the team? XSF, Spain, Price, & Jordan have to be held to a higher standard AT THIS STAGE and that standard should be to at minimum give Jackson, Smith, & Hill time to practice and develop.

Whitworth, a 2nd round pick, only started 12 games as a rookie. To expect the 3 rookies above, who are all learning new positions, to be instantly better than vets is unfair to the rookies while being WAY too kind to the veteran players who seemingly cannot do the job.

[GodFather]

(08-09-2021, 11:06 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Wasn't Price a day 1 starter? How did that work out?

So one example you have? Should I make the list of players who did get better with time? I think in the end my list will be longer.

[XenoMorph]

(08-09-2021, 11:55 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I posted a way longer version of this in the D'Ante Smith thread....

Why are Bengals fans holding Jackson and Smith to a higher standard than the NFL vets who are in the team? XSF, Spain, Price, & Jordan have to be held to a higher standard AT THIS STAGE and that standard should be to at minimum give Jackson, Smith, & Hill time to practice and develop.

Whitworth, a 2nd round pick, only started 12 games as a rookie. To expect the 3 rookies above, who are all learning new positions, to be instantly better than vets is unfair to the rookies while being WAY too kind to the veteran players who seemingly cannot do the job.

I think the rub is  we needed to fix the OL now not pick up guys to develop..  IE drafting 3 guys doesnt help as much as if we signed some seasoned depth/ other to compete for starting spots. to go with a draft pick or 2.

IF the 3 rookies all make the roster then our depth is extremely untested.  If they are expected to start they should be held to the same standard of any starting OL player.    its the nature of the beast.