Bengals not expecting to sign Bates to an extension at this time

[Whatever]

(08-10-2021, 06:01 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I hope this is just posturing.  Maybe the Bates camp is asking for the moon, yet they still know that they'll eventually  take less, and this is the Bengals calling their bluff.  This could almost be a stalement by design.

That said, if this deal doesn't get done, and negotiations breaking down is indeed a long term problem, then it's hard for me not to think the Bengals are low-balling him.

Think of it from Bates' and his agent's perspective:  They know the risk in playing out a rookie deal.  They know that the tag amount for safeties is signifcantly lower than the top 5 highest paid.  Surely they want to avoid this.  They also know that all of the top 6 guys at the position fall between 14 mil and 15.2 mil; there is not a sizeable gap.  The market is pretty easy to identify and calculate.

So I find it almost impossible they'd overshoot this, to the point of ruining long-term security and taking a huge hit in pay on the tag vs. a new deal.  It would make no sense.

Like I said, this could be temporary.  I'm not going to assign blame right now.  Who knows what types of negotiating tactics are being used unless you're in the room.  But if the season opens up and he still isn't signed, I'm going to lean towards the Bengals offering way less than Bates overshooting a clear as day safety market.

PS If he doesn't get locked up that doesn't send a good message to some of the other guys on the team.  I've seen a handful of players talking up Bates this offseason, Von Bell in particular.  It wouldn't be a good look to not take care of your best player.  And franchising him isn't going to make a lot of people happy either.

It's likely a lot more complicated.  Reason being, we're talking about an extension on a rookie deal.  Typically, the player in this situation takes less than market value in order to mitigate the risk of a serious injury wiping out his shot at a big payday.  If the Bates camp is looking for $14-15 mil APY, there's not a lot of motivation for the Bengals to extend him.  I mean, between paying $14-15 mil this year and paying $14-15 mil next year or paying $1 mil this year and $14-15 mil next year on the FT, what are most people really going to do?

Another big issue is that there is still some debate on what his market value actually is.  Some have him slotted as a top 5 S, others have him as only a top 10 S.  There's a pretty significant APY jump from 7th to 6th on the highest paid S chart.  Consistency hurts him, as he was good as a rookie, mediocre in year 2, and elite last year.  With the FT for S's being relatively cheap, it's not hard to see the Bengals wanting to see him back up last year, especially if he wants top 5 money.  

[Joelist]

I'm not worried about Bates - they will get it done.

[PDub80]

Honestly, I am fine if they wait it out. The Bengals can franchise him after this season. Bates gamble is that he will make it through this season and the next healthy and at an elite level. I am not sure of that. AJ Green should be a case study on when to cut a deal as a player and when to risk going for more cash.

The above doesn't mean I'm not thrilled Bates is a Bengal, or that I don't want him to get a huge deal to stay... but, at some point, the numbers work for everyone or they don't. BTW, the Xap is going up over the moon over the next few years... If I were a olayer, I would be looking for something that paid larger guaranteed money towards the middle of a long term deal and foregoing front loaded deals to get it... That's how the Chiefs got Thuney.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-10-2021, 07:05 PM)Whatever Wrote:   If the Bates camp is looking for $14-15 mil APY, there's not a lot of motivation for the Bengals to extend him.  I mean, between paying $14-15 mil this year and paying $14-15 mil next year or paying $1 mil this year and $14-15 mil next year on the FT, what are most people really going to do?

But that's not how it works.  They wouldn't be paying him 14-15 million this year.  He'd being playing on his rookie contract, and the extension would begin next year.  The only actual dollars that could be placed on this year would be cap related (frontloading some of the bonus).

The motivation for the Bengals would most likley be tagging him in 2022, which I think is around 11 million right now, vs. paying him top 6 money (14-15 mil).

The question becomes, is it worth saving 3 or 4 million bucks if you risk alienating your best player, and keeping him long-term?

[wanga]

(08-10-2021, 08:36 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: But that's not how it works.  They wouldn't be paying him 14-15 million this year.  He'd being playing on his rookie contract, and the extension would begin next year.  The only actual dollars that could be placed on this year would be cap related (frontloading some of the bonus).

The motivation for the Bengals would most likley be tagging him in 2022, which I think is around 11 million right now, vs. paying him top 6 money (14-15 mil).

The question becomes, is it worth saving 3 or 4 million bucks if you risk alienating your best player, and keeping him long-term?

No it’s not.

[NUGDUKWE]

I'm just curious and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up. But I've noticed before ppl say the Bengals are cheap and I would tend to agree but when we do sign someone alot of times ppl want to say it's a bad deal and we paid too much.

So where do you think Bates is as far as rank among safeties? And what kind of deal ( $ and yrs) would you like the Bengals to sign him to?

If the #s I'm seeing are accurate it would be like 4yrs 60mil. Is that a good deal?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-10-2021, 09:36 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm just curious and I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up. But I've noticed before ppl say the Bengals are cheap and I would tend to agree but when we do sign someone alot of times ppl want to say it's a bad deal and we paid too much.

So where do you think Bates is as far as rank among safeties? And what kind of deal ( $ and yrs) would you like the Bengals to sign him to?

If the #s I'm seeing are accurate it would be like 4yrs 60mil. Is that a good deal?

That would be more than fine with me. That's about 15 mil per year for one of the top Safeties in the NFL in his prime.

[sandwedge]

(08-10-2021, 09:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That would be more than fine with me. That's about 15 mil per year for one of the top Safeties in the NFL in his prime.

I agree! it's seems to me his salary range is almost slotted. That why I don't think the Bengals are low balling him or he isn't asking a lot more. Maybe it's the language in the contract or bonuses?

[Whatever]

(08-10-2021, 08:36 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: But that's not how it works.  They wouldn't be paying him 14-15 million this year.  He'd being playing on his rookie contract, and the extension would begin next year.  The only actual dollars that could be placed on this year would be cap related (frontloading some of the bonus).

The motivation for the Bengals would most likley be tagging him in 2022, which I think is around 11 million right now, vs. paying him top 6 money (14-15 mil).

The question becomes, is it worth saving 3 or 4 million bucks if you risk alienating your best player, and keeping him long-term?

Justin Simmons got a $15 mil signing bonus, so yeah, we are talking paying him that kind of money.  I realize you're talking strictly about cap accounting, but you also have to look at the real money, too.

The question is when you sign that deal, are you getting '20 Bates, '19 Bates, or '18 Bates? If you're paying Top 6 money for '19 or '18 Bates, you're getting screwed.  You basically have him already for 3 years with the FT.  There's not much motivation to extend him if all you"re doing is getting an extra year to finesse the cap.  I get trying to keep guys happy, but it's also a business.  

[NATI BENGALS]

I thought I read Bates put a lot of weight on his decision to enter the draft on money. Getting pretty analytical as far as first round S pay compared to 2nd contracts for later round guys? Idk

Bengals aren’t afraid to pay handsomely for their own. He wants to break the bank.

I love Bates. But I’m not hamstringing the team for a safety. He’s played a lot the last 3 years and we still lost a lot of games.

Would I trade him for two 1s and start Brandon Wilson in a heart beat? Yes

[2MinutesHate]

Let Bates walk, cut XSF and, promote Michael Jordan to a starting guard all should be moves to help us get closer to the cap floor.

[Tony]

I've given this some thought since this was posted.. If we don't sign Bates this might finally push me over the edge. We finally draft a superstar safety after it being a spot of concern for years and this is how they handle it??

[kevin]

(08-10-2021, 03:58 PM)J24 Wrote: According to Jeremy Fowler from ESPN.

If true this just shows how dumb this front office continues to be. If things don't go right this season then Duke needs to go along with Zac Taylor. Dude is a bum

Exit Bengals not expecting to sign Bates to extension. Mods please change title!

Glad you included source as ESPN.  Sports Illustrated says Bengals and Bates want to make the deal before season starts.  Who to believe ?  Now one poster said what if Bates is asking for 20 mil ?  OK, but what if Mike Brown Family is offering 5 mil when top Safeties get 10 mil ?  Again, people are so quick to defend Mike Brown over the decades and blame the players leaving. I agree, Bates does not deserve 20 mil or even 15 mil.  10 to 13 mil would make Bates in the Top 10 paid Safeties in NFL.  If Bengals are not offering at least 10 mil, they are again going Too Cheap. 

The Bengals NEED the 24 year old Defensive Star. He is young and part of the Future. I will not believe The LAST PLACE Bengals are trying to build a winning team if they do not make Bates a good offer, and it may be the straw that breaks the camels back for me. I am tired of Mike Browns cheap losing ways and his 30 years of Losing since his great Dad died.  The Paul Brown Bengals I liked. The Mike Brown Bengals I don't like. 

Hopefully Sports Illustrated is right, not ESPN.  We need Bates more than we need Mike Brown. 

[Tony]

(08-11-2021, 01:36 AM)kevin Wrote: Glad you included source as ESPN.  Sports Illustrated says Bengals and Bates want to make the deal before season starts.  Who to believe ?  Now one poster said what if Bates is asking for 20 mil ?  OK, but what if Mike Brown Family is offering 5 mil when top Safeties get 10 mil ?  Again, people are so quick to defend Mike Brown over the decades and blame the players leaving. I agree, Bates does not deserve 20 mil or even 15 mil.  10 to 13 mil would make Bates in the Top 10 paid Safeties in NFL.  If Bengals are not offering at least 10 mil, they are again going Too Cheap. 

The Bengals NEED the 24 year old Defensive Star. He is young and part of the Future. I will not believe The LAST PLACE Bengals are trying to build a winning team if they do not make Bates a good offer, and it may be the straw that breaks the camels back for me. I am tired of Mike Browns cheap losing ways and his 30 years of Losing since his great Dad died.  The Paul Brown Bengals I liked. The Mike Brown Bengals I don't like. 

Hopefully Sports Illustrated is right, not ESPN.  We need Bates more than we need Mike Brown. 

You are joking right? Lol... Who is defending Mike Brown around here lol lol...

[sandwedge]

(08-11-2021, 01:29 AM)Tony Wrote: I've given this some thought since this was posted.. If we don't sign  Bates this might finally push me over the edge.  We finally draft a superstar safety after it being a spot of concern for years and this is how they handle it??

Handle what? Not sure why we blame one side when nobody knows what is happening. 

[Sled21]

Good grief, now the front office, which is pretty good at getting deals done, is horrible and Bates doesn't want to be here. The sky is falling. You guys realize the Bengals are not negotiating with Bates, right? Bates' agent is in there negotiating with Katie, trying to get the best deal he can for Bates, and as such for himself, while Katie is trying to get the best deal for the team. Bates is out on the practice field and probably isn't even thinking about it. There is no rush. The Bengals will resign him, bank on it.

[*pally*]

Seahawk’s Jamal Adams needs Bates to sign first and Bates needs Adams to sign first. Both are at an impasss. Whomever signs first sets the market for the other. And neither wants to set it too low

[SadFaceBengal15]

(08-11-2021, 08:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Good grief, now the front office, which is pretty good at getting deals done, is horrible and Bates doesn't want to be here. The sky is falling. You guys realize the Bengals are not negotiating with Bates, right? Bates' agent is in there negotiating with Katie, trying to get the best deal he can for Bates, and as such for himself, while Katie is trying to get the best deal for the team. Bates is out on the practice field and probably isn't even thinking about it. There is no rush. The Bengals will resign him, bank on it.

Just like Lawson and William Jackson or just like whit or Zietler or anyone who’s good that we draft we let walk. Yea bank on it right lmao

[SadFaceBengal15]

(08-11-2021, 01:41 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Handle what? Not sure why we blame one side when nobody knows what is happening. 

Stfu and pay the goddamn man. Bates is a good guy he’s not asking for money he ain’t deserving of. The guy is a damn super start ***** pay the man. This team is a damn joke.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(08-11-2021, 01:40 AM)Tony Wrote: You are joking right? Lol... Who is defending Mike Brown around here lol lol...

Seriously mike brown is never going to get
My vote for a damn thing. I’ll never defend mike brown unless at his funeral. The guy is garbage the family can’t run a lemonade stand let alone a football franchise. Bengals have always said we build through the draft however when the draft good players u realize how cheap they are cuz rarely do the bengals bring them back cuz they’re cheap. It’s known around the league. So here we are building a young team up with good guys and uve got the poster child of that in bates whom u drafted and we don’t know if y’all gonna get a deal done. First of bates should be paid higher than the top 10 safeties cuz he’s a top 5 safety at least. Give him 13.5 to 14.5 a year take a lil on the chin keep the best young safety in the league on the team let alone the defensive captain locker room leader and overall best fricken player on the team. Bengals make everything easy hard. See previous draft if u don’t believe me. Taking chase was the dumbest thing u could’ve done especially when arguably the best body guard of the last decade in Sewell was sitting there for
Your taking... it was that easy for them. But they had to shoot themselves in the foot. The bengals are dumb they don’t win and it’s cuz of shit like the chase pick and shit like not paying bates