Injuries as an excuse

[JaggedJimmyJay]

C'mon folks are we missing the point on purpose?

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2021, 12:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Every team has injuries last time I looked.

Winners don't need excuses.

Loser cling to them like the plague to justify their continued employment.

 

I don't even understand what you mean.

If a kid has no legs is that an "excuse" for why he can't run?  I would call it a "reason"?  Apparently you are unable to understand the difference.

Even the best teams have a lower chance of winning if they have to play 3rd string players.  There are studies that prove it,  Las vegas line makers know this.  Every NFL fan knows this.  

Last year the Chiefs struggled in the Super Bowl because of injuries to their offensive line.  Did they just say "Injuries don't matter.  We are not going to do anything about the  health of our o-line because we don't believe that injuries are a valid excuse"  Or did they act like a normal rational NFL people and admit that they had to do something about the injury issue? 

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2021, 01:03 PM)R3stangs Wrote: So injuries kill us but our backups are great and perform so well? Then why are our injuries such a big deal.....

Don't know why you all can't seem to grasp this point.  Injuries effect EVERY team.  

The only reason I brought up anecdotal evidence about Bengal backups was to disprove the claim that injuries do not effect good teams.  The fact that Bengals opponents have at times gotten good performances out of backups does not  mean that injuries don't effect good teams.  Just like the fact that the Bengals have gotten good games at times from backups does not prove that injuries do not effect the Bengals.  I just provided anecdotal evidence to show that anectdotal evidence does not prove a point.

[fredtoast]

Also funny how they guys who do nothing but shit on the Bengals claim "injuries don't matter" at the same time the squeal their heads off about how our training/medical staff are bad for the team because losing players to injury effect our ability to win.

[BengalChris]

(09-03-2021, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't even understand what you mean.

If a kid has no legs is that an "excuse" for why he can't run?  I would call it a "reason"

Even the best teams have a lower chance of winning if they have to play 3rd string players.  There are studies that prove it,  Las vegas line makers know this.  Every NFL fan knows this.  

Last year the Chiefs struggled in the Super Bowl because of injuries to their offensive line.  Did they just say "Injuries don't matter.  We are not going to do anything about the  health of our o-line because we don't believe that injuries are a valid excuse"  Or did they act like normal rational NFL people and admit that they had to do something about the problem? 

Of course not. I'll answer with a homework assignment.

Look at teams who have had key injuries, yet still won. These do exist by the way.

How many excuses did those teams put forth after winning?







Ah, you see now?

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

(09-03-2021, 01:27 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Of course not. I'll answer with a homework assignment.

Look at teams who have had key injuries, yet still won. These do exist by the way.

How many excuses did those teams put forth after winning?

Ah, you see now?

 

If you cannot see how this argument is lacking, then you really do have some homework to complete.

1) "You don't see teams that win making excuses"


...well no kidding? Hello? McFly? What in the world is that supposed to prove?

2) "Some teams have key injuries and are still successful."

Sure. That does happen. It's not the norm, and it's not what's most expected; it's just possible. If you can't figure out why those distinctions are important, then I don't think this conversation ever had hope in the first place. Yikes.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

"Injuries happen to every team"

Sure they do.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-data-study-war-adjusted-injuries-lost

Since 2012 the Bengals have had more of them than anyone else on average (or more accurately, they've had injuries to more significant players). We can pooh-pooh the very concept of "making excuses" to feel better about our own moral fortitude or something, but we can't reject off-hand the truth. This doesn't have to reflect anything beyond bad luck, but it's there. I can only hope the trend reverses now. There have been healthy years for the Bengals (e.g. 2015 pre-Dalton finger), but most of them have been bad.

[R3stangs]

(09-03-2021, 01:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know why you all can't seem to grasp this point.  Injuries effect EVERY team.  

The only reason I brought up anecdotal evidence about Bengal backups was to disprove the claim that injuries do not effect good teams.  The fact that Bengals opponents have at times gotten good performances out of backups does not  mean that injuries don't effect good teams.  Just like the fact that the Bengals have gotten good games at times from backups does not prove that injuries do not effect the Bengals.  I just provided anecdotal evidence to show that anectdotal evidence does not prove a point.

lol actually no that wasn't your point. Your point was that fans only focus on the negative.

But its your story so tell it however you want. If only I was smart enough to understand your point that injuries affect EVERY team. But I'm not, I just can't understand it. The concept is just beyond me and the rest of us low IQ individuals. Woe is me.

[2MinutesHate]

While the team had a significant amount of injuries last year, it's worth noting that the team has been shitty for 5 years straight.
Looking for other "reasons" besides injuries will help paint a better picture as to why the Bengals have not been good in quite some time now. I would start at the top with management, work downward from coaching and then then to the players.

That said, they should be better this year as they are healthier (for now). How much better? Could just be a win or two, possibly more if ZT has something he hasn't shown us yet. I won't hold my breath on that one though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It should be stated that the Bengals earned at least some of their injury troubles by being unconcerned with injury flags on draft day. Nobody was surprised when Ogbuehi or Ross got hurt, for example, because there was evidence in their collegiate careers to suggest they might be prone to it. They could probably stand to make collegiate durability a higher priority in their process.

[Joelist]

So....

In the case of the Chiefs yes their OL was an issue in the Super Bowl but let's be honest - Tampa devised an exceptional defensive gameplan with deep safeties and doubling Tyreek Hill plus they had the speed on defense to bottle up Kelce and prevent the Chiefs from having anyone wide open. This let them cash in on the Chiefs line issues.

As to injury issues in general, my big wonder is not so much that we get them (all teams do) but the weird tendency of the Bengals to have entire position groups wiped out by injuries. Last year DL was annihilated and OL hurt - we've also had seasons recently where WR was wiped out, the secondary was wiped out, LB was wiped out and so on.

[BengalChris]

(09-03-2021, 01:40 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: If you cannot see how this argument is lacking, then you really do have some homework to complete.

1) "You don't see teams that win making excuses"


...well no kidding? Hello? McFly? What in the world is that supposed to prove?

2) "Some teams have key injuries and are still successful."

Sure. That does happen. It's not the norm, and it's not what's most expected; it's just possible. If you can't figure out why those distinctions are important, then I don't think this conversation ever had hope in the first place. Yikes.

Possibly you are making it a little more complicated than it is.

Not everyone who loses makes excuses. Only those who don't take responsibility need excuses. The excuses make them not responsible. Therefore, it is ok to lose or fail. See? 



 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-03-2021, 03:21 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Possibly you are making it a little more complicated than it is.

Not everyone who loses makes excuses. Only those who don't take responsibility need excuses. The excuses make them not responsible. Therefore, it is ok to lose or fail. See? 



 

There should be no excuses for Zac Taylor this season, next man up if injury occurs is all it should be.

Win 9+ games, that is all.

[J24]

Injuries play a big factor no doubt especially when it one position. With that being said maybe the Bengals should have done a better job at drafting and developing players for depth. Also Relying on a two 30 + DT to satay healthy all season is kinda wishful thinking. Part of it is bad luck but part of it is poor roster management.

Also Side note Geno tore his ***** rotator cuff last season. That's why he was ineffective last season. Stop acting like there wasn't a reason for his bad performance.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2021, 02:09 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: While the team had a significant amount of injuries last year, it's worth noting that the team has been shitty for 5 years straight.
Looking for other "reasons" besides injuries will help paint a better picture as to why the Bengals have not been good in quite some time now.  

Yes. I know there are other reasons. There are many threads about them. Feel free to discuss all those other reasons in detail in those other threads. But this thread is about injuries.

I have seen the top teams in the league with the best coaches struggle when hit by injuries. It is ridiculous to say that better health would not improve the teams chances of winning. In fact many times when an experienced, winning head coach has a down year it is excused if his team had a lot of key injuries.

Good coaches  deal with injuries better than bad ciaches, but sometimes even good coaches lose due to injury.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2021, 10:42 PM)J24 Wrote: Also Side note Geno tore his ***** rotator cuff last season. That's why he was ineffective last season. Stop acting like there wasn't a reason for his bad performance.

Agree 100%. My point was that it was pathetic that a cripple got 120 snaps last year.

Not bashing Geno.  In a few years he may be my all time favorite Bengal. But he was completely useless last year.

[2MinutesHate]

(09-03-2021, 11:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes. I know there are other reasons. There are many threads about them. Feel free to discuss all those other reasons in detail in those other threads. But this thread is about injuries.

I have seen the top teams in the league with the best coaches struggle when hit by injuries. It is ridiculous to say that better health would not improve the teams chances of winning. In fact many times when an experienced, winning head coach has a down year it is excused if his team had a lot of key injuries.

Good condition aches deal with injuries better than bad ciaches, but sometimes even good coaches lose due to injury.

I did say they would be better if they were healthier, not sure where you came up with this.

(09-03-2021, 11:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Agree 100%. My point was that it was pathetic that a cripple got 120 snaps last year.

Not bashing Geno.  In a few years he may be my all time favorite Bengal. But he was completely useless last year.

If management/coaches weren't playing guys like Geno and look for other players, we would be better as well.  My point is that Bengals management deals poorly with injuries by not having adequate depth and also lack of creativeness when signing/trading players.   Management is also responsible for hiring bottom-of-the-barrel coaches who cannot game plan around weak spots in the team due to injuries.  I think that the OL carousel last year had more to do with terrible play than injuries.  This year's strategy has been similar to last year's.  

Having as many injuries as we did last year really magnifies our ineptness of management/coaching.  Our most significant injury (Joe Burrow) is a direct result of this and so is our 5th straight losing team.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2021, 03:21 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Possibly you are making it a little more complicated than it is.

Not everyone who loses makes excuses. Only those who don't take responsibility need excuses. The excuses make them not responsible. Therefore, it is ok to lose or fail. See? 



 

Now yoy are just playing silly word games instead of making any kind of point.

Yoy are seriously tryibg to argue that the Chiefs believe ut is "okay to fail" because they said they needed to address the health of their OTs after the injury issues they had last year.

That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

EVERY NFL team understands that injuries effect their ability to win. They don't deny it. They talk abour it publicaly. They takes steps to correct it.

Adressing reality is not "makibg excuses".

[Shake n Blake]

(09-03-2021, 09:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But the Bengals have also had 100 yd rushing games from back ups like Rex Burkhead and Bernard Scott.  Alex Erickson had a 100 yard receiving game.

Funny how some fans seem to just see the negative.  I remember a few years back when we had one of the top pass defenses in the league there was a thread about "Why opponents receivers are always running wide open and Bengal receivers are always covered."

I "remember the negative" because both the performances I mentioned happened to us in the playoffs, and played heavily into why we lost.

(09-03-2021, 09:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Doesn't change my point at all.

Injuries have an effect on a teams ability to win.  That is not just some crazy idea I came up with as an "excuse for Zac Taylor".  Even if Taylor is a bad coach we will be a better team this year if we are more healthy.

As I implied in the part you clipped out, I generally agree with you. It was just a terrible comparison, and should be thrown out as evidence.

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2021, 10:20 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote:  This year's strategy has been similar to last year's.  

This is getting ridiculous.

This year we addressed the O-line with a new coach, a top 10 paid free agent and O-line picks in the second and 4th rounds.

Last year we signed a lower tier free agent.

Why not just stop messing around and call yourself ALifetimeOfHate. You refuse to even address the issue in an honest manner.